50 years since the first day of diesel and electric only timetabled service.

[Gibbo675]

Remember what happened to GF Fiennes. Nothing has changed.

 

 

Gerry Fiennes book is a good read and lays out well how complicated running a railway system actually is from the sourcing of traffic to the commissioning of infrastructure and stock to work upon it. All of the above takes a long time and huge investment and sometimes is almost out of date by the time it is delivered.

 

As the saying goes, if it was easy we would all be doing it !

 

The running of a railway fits this statement quite well.

 

Gibbo.

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

With regard the demise of steam I spent over twenty years at Riley and Son's of Bury working on kettles of all shapes and sizes and I have to tell you when you look at what jobs were available in engineering and the rates of pay offered by the railways at the time I have to smile when I hear all the puffer-nutters waffle on about Bullied's working into the 1980's and 9F's running at 85 mph on Freightliner trains.

 

My experience of BR fitters is that most of them were not particularly happy working on the paraffin camels so kettles would have been right out of the window !

To have worked on steam even into the 1970's would have required the kind of commitment that I had to have to do my job from 1992 onward, I just can't see how a commercial enterprise such as British Rail would have retained enough staff to keep it all going.

 

Mention of the Modernisation Plan, of which the Beaching Report was only part of was not properly or indeed fully implemented due to the usual curse of political interference. I'm sure I've read somewhere that there were more diesels sent for scrap in 1967 than steam locos due to gross ineptitude in the requisition of poorly designed and conceived classes of diesel locomotive, most of which should have been obsolete should the Modernisation Plan been implemented as it was intended, ie. overseen by engineers and NOT bureaucrats and accountants.

 

All water under the bridge and like it or lump it, the railway's job is moving things from place to place in an efficient manner which is why goods traffic is mostly block container, oil, stone, etc. and passenger work is all units of some sort or another

 

Take a look at the Latin etymology of the word locomotive as pulled off the 'tintermunky; early 17th century (as an adjective): from modern Latin locomotivus, from Latin loco (ablative of locus‘place’) + late Latin motivus ‘motive’, suggested by medieval Latin in loco moveri ‘move by change of position’.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Gibbo675

[woodenhead]

When you think of the HST only 4 years after the end of steam and the APT as well you have to then ask what the hell happened.

 

BR reached its peak in 1978 with the fleet of production HSTs and the electric APTs appearing, after that it was all downhill

[newbryford]

Can't say I agree with the above post.

 

My spectacles are clear and do not have a pink tinge.......

 

Somebody mentioned pacers.....believe it or not, they are related to development work on the APT. (Wheel/rail interface etc)

 

They were a vital (i.e. cheap) lifeline that kept lines open.

 

The knock on effect was reopening of other lines and stations. Many stations that were reopened/new on a "temporary" basis - especially in the Yorkshire area. I'm not aware that many - if any - have since closed.

 

My own local line reopened to regular passengers after 30 years in 1994 and has seen a constant increase in ridership ever since. 

It now sees at least an every day, hourly service to Manchester and there is pressure to increase the frequency further. They've added extra vehicles in the last 2-3 years - as I type a pair of 150s passes, when it was a single 150 in years gone by. 

 

 So someone, somewhere is doing something right.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited August 4, 2018 by newbryford

[Edwin_m]

One of my earliest memories, a few days before my third birthday, was being taken to see one of the farewell to steam excursions crossing Saddleworth Viaduct.  I recall being surprised when my mum told me it was the last steam train* because I had no previous memory of seeing a steam train and wasn't aware they were still running! 

 

*mis-remembered by me or not strictly true, as the actual last one was a few days later. 

[62613]

One of my earliest memories, a few days before my third birthday, was being taken to see one of the farewell to steam excursions crossing Saddleworth Viaduct.  I recall being surprised when my mum told me it was the last steam train* because I had no previous memory of seeing a steam train and wasn't aware they were still running! 

 

*mis-remembered by me or not strictly true, as the actual last one was a few days later. 

I watched one of them from Uppermill Cricket Club!

[Mike Storey]

When you think of the HST only 4 years after the end of steam and the APT as well you have to then ask what the hell happened.

 

BR reached its peak in 1978 with the fleet of production HSTs and the electric APTs appearing, after that it was all downhill

 

Strange comment. What do you mean?

[andyman7]

I find the Pacer debate quite interesting. They are frequently berated for their Spartan accommodation and variable ride quality, but in simple engineering terms they have been very successful - they were designed as a low cost stopgap to deal with life-expired rolling stock at a time when funding was critically short. As such they did exactly the job required of them and the fact that apart from the 141s the fleet has clocked up 30 years service is nothing short of remarkable. I travelled on one between Exeter and Dawlish a couple of weeks ago and rather enjoyed its retro basic engineering charm, but then I'm funny like that.

[rockershovel]

Strange comment. What do you mean?

It seems quite clear to me. The HST was a radical, fundamental step change in design, a complete change from the diesel hauled, LHCS trains of the “modernisation” era. They really were that much better, and unlike the sometimes weird and wonderful, frequently problematical “green diesels” they seemed to be a fully realised design.

 

How did that happen, in such a short period?

Edited August 4, 2018 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

I find the Pacer debate quite interesting. They are frequently berated for their Spartan accommodation and variable ride quality, but in simple engineering terms they have been very successful - they were designed as a low cost stopgap to deal with life-expired rolling stock at a time when funding was critically short. As such they did exactly the job required of them and the fact that apart from the 141s the fleet has clocked up 30 years service is nothing short of remarkable. I travelled on one between Exeter and Dawlish a couple of weeks ago and rather enjoyed its retro basic engineering charm, but then I'm funny like that.

Exactly, the function of the railway is to provide affordable, cost-effective transport. Pacers did that. Some have long outlived their design life, in continuing service. You might not like them much - I’m not a fan of them - but that isn’t the point

[newbryford]

It seems quite clear to me. The HST was a radical, fundamental step change in design, a complete change from the diesel hauled, LHCS trains of the “modernisation” era. They really were that much better, and unlike the sometimes weird and wonderful, frequently problematical “green diesels” they seemed to be a fully realised design.

 

How did that happen, in such a short period?

Were they such a step change?

IMO, they took the best bits of what was around with minimal risk and put it all together in a successful package.

The Mk3's were a natural progression of the Mk2.

The power cars were a combination of the lightweight shells and (relatively) high-revving engines of the WR diesel hydraulics married to proven electrical technology in the transmission system.

And it was possibly the engines that caused the bigger issues in the early days.

 

The concept of power cars at each end with coaches in between had already been proven with the Blue Pullman.

 

What would have been a step change was the APT, but stunted by lack of finance.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[The Johnster]

I agree that the HST was a logical progression rather than a step change, and it took more than 4 years from 1968!  HSTs were first introduced in 1975, 7 years later, and the production units a year after that.  The design can be traced to the XP64 train which led to the development of mk2 coaches, a very clear and chronological evolution from vacuum braked steam heated coaches to air braked eth air conditioned stock.  As has been said, the concept of a topped and tailed train had been proven with the Blue Pullmans, and the later mk2 coaches were not dissimilar to those coaches in many ways; integral construction, double glazing, air conditioning, and a better ride; they led directly to the withdrawal of Pullman stock.

 

It should be remembered that British Rail, an organisation that was largely the target of mockery and abuse from the chattering classes in the 70s, introduced a train whose timings have not been beaten on any but the West and East Coast trunk routes, and are only to be equalled, not beaten, by the GW electrification whatever spin that nice Mr Grayling likes to put on it. and which was, in 1975 and for some time after, the ONLY air conditioned train IN THE WORLD that did not require it's cost to be supported by supplementary fares of some sort, and one of the fastest and most comfortable; you turned up at the station, bought an ordinary ticket without having to pre book or reserve your seat, and travelled in the best stock in the world for service on ordinary (as opposed to specifically high speed) railways. a remarkable achievement and an illustration of what a properly motivated, managed, and staffed Nationalised Industry can do.  

 

It had little to do with the withdrawal of steam, though, as it was a process already well under way when steam was withdrawn.  Steam withdrawal was much more to do with a desire to be perceived as modern and forward thinking, and was hastened by falling traffic levels at a time when there were promises being made about electrification projects that were in the event delayed,  some for over half a century, by parsimony on the behalf of the Treasury.  The suitability of the diesel replacements from the 60s and 70s is a matter of debate that I have no wish to re-open here, but steam was effectively a dead duck everywhere in the developed world by about 1970 anyway, and a dying duck everywhere else; even in countries that had pressing political or economic reasons to continue with it like South Africa or China succumbed within a few decades.

[Clive Mortimore]

I agree that the HST was a logical progression rather than a step change, and it took more than 4 years from 1968!  HSTs were first introduced in 1975, 7 years later, and the production units a year after that.  The design can be traced to the XP64 train which led to the development of mk2 coaches, a very clear and chronological evolution from vacuum braked steam heated coaches to air braked eth air conditioned stock.  As has been said, the concept of a topped and tailed train had been proven with the Blue Pullmans, and the later mk2 coaches were not dissimilar to those coaches in many ways; integral construction, double glazing, air conditioning, and a better ride; they led directly to the withdrawal of Pullman stock.

 

Hi Johnster

 

Mk2 coaches were a development by Swindon of their inter city DMUs, integral body was the main feature. The XP64 set was a re-styled Mk1 body. There were interior features from the XP64 that were incorporated into the later Mk2 coaches. The Pullmans were withdrawn as they were no longer economic, or reliable and loss of passengers on seats before the prototype HST took to the rails. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

I've been keeping my powder dry on this one, as to me, and maybe rather pedantically, the Preston sleepers were heated and hauled by a steam locomotive in the early hours of August 4th, so the first "no scheduled steam on the system" day was the 5th.

I can remember where I was, and even have the notes. The last week in July and first week in August were Sheffield "works/wakes weeks", so I was in Tenby on summer holiday, and on monday 5th August was on Whitland station seeing the following.

D1609. D7097. D2185. D1938. D2190. D7059. D6880. D7052. D7076.

 

Mike.

[rockershovel]

So, the “step change” of the HST trains consisted of combining various elements which existed separately, into an integrated whole which was so much more than the sum of its parts? Sounds about what I’d expect.

[Clive Mortimore]

I've been keeping my powder dry on this one, as to me, and maybe rather pedantically, the Preston sleepers were heated and hauled by a steam locomotive in the early hours of August 4th, so the first "no scheduled steam on the system" day was the 5th.

I can remember where I was, and even have the notes. The last week in July and first week in August were Sheffield "works/wakes weeks", so I was in Tenby on summer holiday, and on monday 5th August was on Whitland station seeing the following.

D1609. D7097. D2185. D1938. D2190. D7059. D6880. D7052. D7076.

 

Mike.

Hi Mike

 

Did the trains depart before midnight? If so are they trains of the 3rd August or 4th August?

[Gibbo675]

Hi Mike

 

Did the trains depart before midnight? If so are they trains of the 3rd August or 4th August?

Hi Clive,

 

Nearly coughed my tea out having a good giggle at your post, my kind of pedantry/comedy !

 

However, it is rumored that the last goods train was worked by 45407, a loco I knew well, some time after August 11, the source was Joe Singleton who looked after the locomotive for both Paddy Smith from early preservation days at Carnforth and latterly Ian Riley.

 

Gibbo.

[Titan]

 and which was, in 1975 and for some time after, the ONLY air conditioned train IN THE WORLD that did not require it's cost to be supported by supplementary fares of some sort

 

So don't Mk2 d/e/f count? Don't think you needed a supplement to travel on those...

 

So, the “step change” of the HST trains consisted of combining various elements which existed separately, into an integrated whole which was so much more than the sum of its parts? Sounds about what I’d expect.

 

Engineering wise it certainly was. However when BR was suddenly running the second fastest regular service in the world - only the Shinkansen was faster, the massive reduction in journey times and the very much improved passenger experience plus the snazzy image all for the same price was a very big step change for the passenger.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Titan

[Pacific231G]

'Modernization' is a funny word. Are we any happier with our railways today?  When steam worked the Oldham Loop, trains took 30 minutes into Manchester and 35 minutes back up to Oldham. In late 1958, DMU's brought in a journey time of 20 minutes, so there was a big improvement. When steam finished on the North Wales line, diesels did not and still have not improved journey times into Manchester. In fact, DMU's surplus from closed branchlines took over from steam and many of us promptly bought cars in 1966 as preferable to a lousy decidedly uncomfortable 2 hours ride in DMU's. Once you force folk to look elsewhere, they never return. In other words, many of us were satisfied with our steam trains for longer distances because they hauled comfortable carriages.

I have to agree with that. One of the most unpleasant railway journeys I ever made was in about 1965-1966 from Oxford to the Norfolk Broads for a Sea Scout cruise. It involved a succession of two car DMUs (some made up into 2+2 trains) with at least three possibly four changes and they were fumey, uncomfortable and slow with a lot of unpleasant vibration. The only good thing about those early DMUs were being able to see out the front but their drivers quickly got into the mean spriited habit of pulling down first the blind behind them and then both blinds so you could see nothing.

 

Conversely, several much longer journeys in the 60s and 70s were in fairly old compartment corridor stock and, if not always an actual pleasure, were entirely bearable; you just found a compartment, settled into the corner and read, dozed or chatted for a few hours. One good thing about compartment stock was that you frequently found yourself having to share it with strangers and, even in Britain, interesting conversations often followed. (In Europe  one romance began that way for me). Ironically, modern saloon stock carriages being more open seem to make people less so though sharing a table in the restaurant car could be quite convivial.

 

I think I may have been at sea on August 3rd/4th 1968 as I don't really remember the actual last day. My own final memory of BR steam around that time was HEARING (not seeing) a loco pulling out of somewhere around Liverpool Docks with a goods train near Bootle late in the evening. It was a haunting sound that I've never forgotten and someone here may know what it most likely was. 

 

For me BR steam effectively ended in 1967 when, a year after the last steam ran at Oxford, it finally disappeared from the SR which had been the target for several school railway society trips - mostly shed-bashing but including a notable run on the Bournemouth Belle shortly before it stopped being a steam operated service. After that, I was vaguely aware of steam being still around in isolated pockets in the north of England but not enough to warrant a trip. Had I but known it, I could for several years have found very active main line steam a lot closer than that just across the Channel and a few years later did just that near Vienna (though ÖBB "lokalbahnen" rather than main lines) 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Enterprisingwestern]

Hi Mike

 

Did the trains depart before midnight? If so are they trains of the 3rd August or 4th August?

 

Dragged out of the bay after midnight.

 

Mike.

[The Johnster]

So don't Mk2 d/e/f count? Don't think you needed a supplement to travel on those...

 

 

Engineering wise it certainly was. However when BR was suddenly running the second fastest regular service in the world - only the Shinkansen was faster, the massive reduction in journey times and the very much improved passenger experience plus the snazzy image all for the same price was a very big step change for the passenger.

 

Air conditioned mk2s count; I believe they were the only stock in the world available at normal fare with double glazing and tinted windows as well at the time. 

[newbryford]

Dragged out of the bay after midnight.

 

Mike.

 

But probably attached to 1A00 from Barrow - which had commenced it's journey before midnight...…...

[The Johnster]

So, the “step change” of the HST trains consisted of combining various elements which existed separately, into an integrated whole which was so much more than the sum of its parts? Sounds about what I’d expect.

Pretty much.  As has been said, Swindon started the ball rolling with the B4 bogie and the first 'integral body' chassisless mk2s, FKs for the WR and SR (I think the ECML got some as well) in 1965.  Mk2s are a very clear progression but retained the 64 foot format; BR was reluctant to lengthen coaches because of route availability clearance issues.  The Southern was still turning out brand new designs based on the Mk1 for some time after 1965.  

 

The evolution goes: 100mph vac brake steam heated central as well as end doors. dual braked steam heated wrap around end doors no centrals (much stronger body)/air braked only eth/ disc brakes/airco.  My personal opinion is that the late airconditioned Mk2 FO was the most comfortable non Pullman coach to ever run in the UK.  Then mk3.

[woodenhead]

Can't say I agree with the above post.

 

My spectacles are clear and do not have a pink tinge.......

 

Somebody mentioned pacers.....believe it or not, they are related to development work on the APT. (Wheel/rail interface etc)

 

They were a vital (i.e. cheap) lifeline that kept lines open.

 

The knock on effect was reopening of other lines and stations. Many stations that were reopened/new on a "temporary" basis - especially in the Yorkshire area. I'm not aware that many - if any - have since closed.

 

My own local line reopened to regular passengers after 30 years in 1994 and has seen a constant increase in ridership ever since. 

It now sees at least an every day, hourly service to Manchester and there is pressure to increase the frequency further. They've added extra vehicles in the last 2-3 years - as I type a pair of 150s passes, when it was a single 150 in years gone by. 

 

 So someone, somewhere is doing something right.

 

Cheers,

Mick

  

Strange comment. What do you mean?

I didn't phrase it well perhaps, there was development after 1978 but BR was under ever increasing scrutiny and penny pinching. Everything it did was based on political interference so after having a platform of the HST and the APT to build upon it seemed to end up in the doldrums. The ECML was wired on the cheap, the WCML was denied any upgrades, the MML remained a strange anachronism. The initial electric APT was still only the prototype, we never got to see what a full production train might have achieved though the Pendolino has demonstrated the base concept was sound.

 

BR did a lot with very little but railways weren't popular, politicians were too busy filling up the roads with vehicles.

 

It's strange how so much money became available after the faux privatisation of the passenger railway.

[E3109]

Were they such a step change?

IMO, they took the best bits of what was around with minimal risk and put it all together in a successful package.

The Mk3's were a natural progression of the Mk2.

The power cars were a combination of the lightweight shells and (relatively) high-revving engines of the WR diesel hydraulics married to proven electrical technology in the transmission system.

And it was possibly the engines that caused the bigger issues in the early days.

 

The concept of power cars at each end with coaches in between had already been proven with the Blue Pullman.

 

What would have been a step change was the APT, but stunted by lack of finance.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Makes me wonder why the Blue Pullman sets weren't retained after the introduction of HSTs.

Their rough riding qualities are well-documented but even so, the 'Trams' were largely pivotal in saving BR from oblivion, in fact perhaps it wasn't the HSTs themselves but the working practices.

No loco (as such)

Thus no brake test

Thus no Shunter

 

And so on.

 

So why were the BPs binned off, when the principle of a power car at either end in fixed formation was in essence the saviour of our railway.