Any Citroen mechanics out there?

[devonseasider]

We're having trouble with my wife's C1 & can't seem to get to the root cause of it.  Thought we'd cracked it yesterday but warning lights returned today.

The car is a little over 3 years old with about 8500 miles on the clock.

 

Engine warning light came on, followed a fraction of a second later by traction control & tyre pressure lights.  The latter is definitely a spurious warning as there's nothing wrong with the pressures.

Diagnostic test reports fault with oxygen sensor in exhaust pipe.

 

Cutting a long story short, post-cat sensor replaced & fault codes cleared.  Warning lights re-appear after about 15 miles.  Same diagnostic report.

 

Pre- & post-cat sensors checked - clean & giving correct voltage readings.  Fault codes cleared, cat cleaner added to fuel, extended road test 30-35 miles - no problems evident.  Car left overnight, next morning another 10 miles or so & warning lights re-appear.  Have not done diagnostic check but expect same as before.

 

Engine seems to be running normally & no problems noticed in road-holding etc.

 

Anyone with experience of similar or with any ideas/suggestions of possible/probable cause & solution?

 

[Ozexpatriate]

Best send an owl to Madame Maxime of Académie Beauxbatons.

 

Horsetan of this parish might have some suggestions. He has the fièvre Citroën.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[devonseasider]

Best send an owl to Madame Maxime of Académie Beauxbatons.

 

As it's my wife's car, a bat would probably be more appropriate than an owl  .  .  .  .

(but please don't anyone tell her I said that!   

[royaloak]

Some questions if you dont mind-

 

1/ is the car only used on short journeys?

2/ does the car get up to temperature AND then continue to be driven for several miles?

3/ does the car ever get to 'stretch its legs' on a dual carriageway or motorway for several miles?

4/ if used on high speed roads do you keep the revs high and the throttle depressed to burn the crap out of the catalytic converter?

5/ have you given it a good blast since the faults began to appear?

6/ when you say extended road test is that just plodding along on an almost closed throttle or are you giving it some beans?

 

Most of these problems occur on cars used almost entirely around town and the engine, catalytic converter and exhaust etc just get gummed up with unburnt fuel etc and it needs to be got rid of which is best accomplished by booting it in a low gear so the revs are high and the exhaust gasses are very hot and flowing fast.

Edited August 8, 2018 by royaloak

[micklner]

If Diesel it needs a long fast run , judging from the mileage again give it a run on either fuel. 

[kernowtim]

Are the new oxygen sensors genuine or quality brand?? Some cheap sensors from people like eurocarparts are known to have issues on some vehicles!! Also the universal type where the plug from the original sensor can cause problems where the wire is joined.

These are not specific to citroen/peugeot vehicles!!!

[Yardman]

Check the battery connections. Often car diagnostics throw up spurious indications because the battery voltage is down or cable connections are poor or corroded. This includes engine earth strap.

[Horsetan]

….Horsetan of this parish might have some suggestions. He has the fièvre Citroën.

 

Can I respectfully point out that ownership of a 30-year-old CX doesn't instantly confer the status of mécanicien - I'm simply learning about the foibles of my four-wheeled mistress. When she's good, she's very very good, but when she's bad....

Edited August 10, 2018 by Horsetan

[uax6]

 When she's good, she's very very good, but when she's bad....

 

So very much like French women in my experience.....

 

Andy G

[daltonparva]

If you're having problems with warning lights that keep coming on, do what us old-schoolers do. Take the bulbs out of the lights.

Edited August 9, 2018 by daltonparva

[kernowtim]

If you're having problems with warning lights that keep coming on, do what us old-schoolers do. Take the bulbs out of the lights.

Or put tape over the lights!!

Doesn't prevent the vehicle going into limp-home mode though..

Edited August 9, 2018 by kernowtim

[Enterprisingwestern]

Aaah, Citroen electrics, the stuff of fables and good enough to eclipse Lucas The Prince Of Darkness.

Despite having owned Citroens only for more than 30 years, as Horsetan comments, it doesn't make you anything of an expert.

I've just come through a battle with the tailgate on my C5 estate, despite being told by "proper" mechanics that it's such a strange wiring fault that it can't be traced and rectified, it turnrd out that most of the  components on the tailgate had failed, almost simultaneously, high level brake light, wiper motor, wiper spindle seized, tailgate microswitch etc etc.

My advice after all that would depend on your motoring experience. If you are competent around the car, get yourself a multimeter and painstakingly check the wiring and connections on every part of the wiring loom in the relevant area, if not, then try and find an "old fashioned" auto electrician who doesn't just plug the computer in and throw components at it, (which seems to be what has happened), and explain the problem to him. 

Failing that, see if you can beg borrow or steal a new ECU/brain to substitute and try, it's amazing what they really do impinge upon the correct operation of.

Failing all that, join the CCC and see if anybody else has had the same issues.

 

Mike.

[Horsetan]

If you're having problems with warning lights that keep coming on, do what us old-schoolers do. Take the bulbs out of the lights.

Citroen used to provide, in addition to the usual bank of warning lights on the display, a separate red light with the word STOP on it. I was told that, if this light came on, it meant that everything was broken.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Horsetan

[alastairq]

Citroen used provide, in addition to the usual bank of warning lights on the display, a separate red light with the word STOP on it. I was told that, if this light came on, it meant that everything was broken.

I have come across a few vehicles [not Citrous] which had one of those...I always found it best to do what it says, otherwise it will do it for you, toot sweet...

[Joseph_Pestell]

Are the new oxygen sensors genuine or quality brand?? Some cheap sensors from people like eurocarparts are known to have issues on some vehicles!! Also the universal type where the plug from the original sensor can cause problems where the wire is joined.

These are not specific to citroen/peugeot vehicles!!!

 

Indeed they are not. I had the same issues with a Renault which died in lane 3 of the M6 on a Friday evening rush hour. How I got it to the hard shoulder I don't really know. Scary!

 

I don't recall what the final answer was but it turned out that the exhaust sensor was not the real problem. I will see if I can dig out the paperwork from my mechanic.

[Gareth Collier]

Lack of use could well be the issue. For my sins I spent 3 years selling Suzuki's and the Wagon was the weapon of choice for Suzuki's customer base mostly being those of retirement age. We had a regular stream of customers coming in with engine check lights lit up. In 99% of the cases there was nothing wrong except most only used their car a couple of times a week for a run to the local shop. The engines were never given the chance to properly warm up so everything gummed up with unburned fuel etc.

Your wife may well use it more than I've indicated but it was a known problem. One of our mechanics would give the car a blast up and down the local dual carriageway and the light would go out until another few weeks of little use caused it to light up again.

[devonseasider]

Some questions if you dont mind-

 

1/ is the car only used on short journeys?

2/ does the car get up to temperature AND then continue to be driven for several miles?

3/ does the car ever get to 'stretch its legs' on a dual carriageway or motorway for several miles?

4/ if used on high speed roads do you keep the revs high and the throttle depressed to burn the crap out of the catalytic converter?

5/ have you given it a good blast since the faults began to appear?

6/ when you say extended road test is that just plodding along on an almost closed throttle or are you giving it some beans?

 

Most of these problems occur on cars used almost entirely around town and the engine, catalytic converter and exhaust etc just get gummed up with unburnt fuel etc and it needs to be got rid of which is best accomplished by booting it in a low gear so the revs are high and the exhaust gasses are very hot and flowing fast.

 

Thanks for that - I think your mind is going along similar lines to mine.

Answers as best as I can:

 

1.  Short journeys - mainly, yes.

2.  Usual journeys are perhaps 5 - 10 or 15 miles out (and the same back, obviously!).    She's no boy racer, but in fairness, neither is she a snail.

3.  There's a distinct shortage of dual carriageways & motorways in this part of the world although it did get a good blast up the A303 just a few weeks ago (that's before the trouble started).

4.  See 3 above.  Little trace of "high speed roads" in these parts (and she prefers to avoid them whenever possible).  I do occasionally take it out & give the revs a bit of a boost but perhaps not often enough or for long enough.

5 & 6  Certainly revved higher than would normally be the case, but bear in mind again #3 above.

 

Gut feeling is that there's nothing fundamentally wrong other than a clogged-up exhaust system.  May need a series of  "Clear fault code - give it a blast - repeat" cycles to clean it out.

[Dunsignalling]

Thanks for that - I think your mind is going along similar lines to mine.

Answers as best as I can:

 

1.  Short journeys - mainly, yes.

2.  Usual journeys are perhaps 5 - 10 or 15 miles out (and the same back, obviously!).    She's no boy racer, but in fairness, neither is she a snail.

3.  There's a distinct shortage of dual carriageways & motorways in this part of the world although it did get a good blast up the A303 just a few weeks ago (that's before the trouble started).

4.  See 3 above.  Little trace of "high speed roads" in these parts (and she prefers to avoid them whenever possible).  I do occasionally take it out & give the revs a bit of a boost but perhaps not often enough or for long enough.

5 & 6  Certainly revved higher than would normally be the case, but bear in mind again #3 above.

 

Gut feeling is that there's nothing fundamentally wrong other than a clogged-up exhaust system.  May need a series of  "Clear fault code - give it a blast - repeat" cycles to clean it out.

I think your last comment is about there Graham.

 

Small Turbo diesels of the PSA persuasion need a good 30-40 mile thrash now and again to blow the cobwebs away and revive the anti-particulate gizmo. 

 

My Pug 207HdiSW, purchased with 34k on the clock (ex-Motability) was decidedly less peppy than I expected (though it's predecessor was a 206 D Turbo so maybe not an entirely fair comparison).

 

I suspected it hadn't been out of town much before I got it and two trips down the A30 to Exeter and back, ignoring top gear (and fourth quite a bit of the time) while holding 3000 revs+ as much as possible did the trick, though it seems brutal.

 

Also, these motors don't really seem to be properly bedded-in until they have around 50k on the clock when they suddenly get smoother, zippier and more economical all at the same time.

 

Good luck

 

John  

Edited August 9, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[devonseasider]

Brief responses to the others of you who have replied (and thanks for your time & suggestions):

 

kernowtim   -   new oxygen sensor  -  yes, that's "proper job" & seems OK, despite diagnostic pointing to the contrary.

 

Yardman   -   battery connections & general battery condition all OK.  Meter readings give what they should.

 

Enterprisingwestern   -   comments noted & filed for possible future reference!

 

Horsetan / alastairq   -   yes, she's got one of those but so far it's behaved itself.

 

Joseph_Pestell   -   been in a similar situation some time ago, in a different vehicle & in less-dangerous circumstances.  Doesn't do your heart-rate much good, does it?  There must be a better way!  Would be interested in comments from mechanic's report if you do come across it.

 

Stormtrooper Gareth   -   sound exactly the same.  Thanks.

[devonseasider]

I think your last comment is about there Graham.

 

Cheers, John.

Just for accuracy, it is actually petrol, not diesel but pretty much the same comments apply.

 

On a different subject, haven't forgotten your SD card (but you did say no rush).

May see you Sunday.

[duncan]

My Mother's wee car had the same problem, short journeys at low speed - solution onto main road, change down till I reached the red line (to stay within the speed limit, of course !) & burn 1/4 tank.    Best done at night, unless you wear the baseball cap back to front, don't mind the complaints of "boy-racing" given the noise & eventually cloud of black smoke out the back.     Always surprised Mum that the car ran better after I drove it.     Also, if done during the day, one of her friends would probably have seen the "torture" being inflicted & reported back to the boss,    & that would have been serious  .

[polybear]

 

Yardman   -   battery connections & general battery condition all OK.  Meter readings give what they should.

 

How about the negative lead to the chassis/engine block connection?

[Welly]

 

I've just come through a battle with the tailgate on my C5 estate, despite being told by "proper" mechanics that it's such a strange wiring fault that it can't be traced and rectified, it turnrd out that most of the  components on the tailgate had failed, almost simultaneously, high level brake light, wiper motor, wiper spindle seized, tailgate microswitch etc etc.

 

Have you checked the state of the tailgate hinge? My old Fiesta had that problem and it turned out the return current was going through rusty hinge faces - I cured it by using copper grease.

[Yardman]

Brief responses to the others of you who have replied (and thanks for your time & suggestions):

 

kernowtim   -   new oxygen sensor  -  yes, that's "proper job" & seems OK, despite diagnostic pointing to the contrary.

 

Yardman   -   battery connections & general battery condition all OK.  Meter readings give what they should.

 

Enterprisingwestern   -   comments noted & filed for possible future reference!

 

Horsetan / alastairq   -   yes, she's got one of those but so far it's behaved itself.

 

Joseph_Pestell   -   been in a similar situation some time ago, in a different vehicle & in less-dangerous circumstances.  Doesn't do your heart-rate much good, does it?  There must be a better way!  Would be interested in comments from mechanic's report if you do come across it.

 

Stormtrooper Gareth   -   sound exactly the same.  Thanks.

I would respectfully suggest that meter readings don't mean anything unless they are taken under load conditions. Fault codes are often thrown up during starting when loads are high and voltages fluctuate. Connections need to be taken apart, cleaned, lubricated and re-assembled.

[PatB]

I would respectfully suggest that meter readings don't mean anything unless they are taken under load conditions. Fault codes are often thrown up during starting when loads are high and voltages fluctuate. Connections need to be taken apart, cleaned, lubricated and re-assembled.

 

Agreed. I've had faults (on much older vehicles, admittedly) where there have been volts everywhere there should be when tested with a meter, and a nice zero reading for resistance, again on the meter, but as soon as asked to carry any real current, all the connections have broken down under the load.

 

 

Citroen used provide, in addition to the usual bank of warning lights on the display, a separate red light with the word STOP on it. I was told that, if this light came on, it meant that everything was broken.

 

Our Fiat Scudo (which, of course, is the budget sibling of Peugeot and Citroen versions of the same thing) has one of those. I hope never to see it light this side of a lottery win. I gather its main function is actually to prevent engine damage if the water level in the fuel/water separator overtops.