How do you critique a used loco?

[Tomathee]

Hello folks, as promised in my introduction post here I am with a query. I'm getting into (or re-entering from childhood 20 years ago) the hobby as my son has shown an interest. Given how changeable children are and that they grow up at a faster rate than ever I'm under no illusions that this might only be a short term thing (few years out of it would be nice) for him, and at the moment there's no telling if circumstances would permit me to continue the hobby on my lonesome (aka if its not in his room then there may not be a second option).

 

Thus I'm looking to keep it cheap and go second hand for some areas, definitely to begin with. I've been looking at ebay alongside some of the sites that sell used, I'm not new to ebay and identifying dodgy sellers or a 'bad deal', however things get muddy for me with the specifics of appraising a loco(s) to buy. I've a rough idea of what I want (e.g. steam, 00, probably small shunting/tank engine first) and I've been going through watching several dozen to see how they go, to look more closely at and get an idea of the final prices. In terms of narrowing down shopping criteria, obviously the description and photos can filter out a lot, and the other main thing I've heard is avoid those with the motor in the tender (if they identify that), but I'm not really sure what else to look for, do I avoid older than a certain age, go by certain codes (Horny R.....) and so on. I'm not so bothered about those which go up and up out of price range as those which seem like a bargain, run well and look fine but do not sell and why that might be, so that I know what to avoid and what to take a chance on. For instance from recently completed on my watch list a Bachman 2-6-2 (V3? still not fully up on the codes and numbering) described as excellent, boxed with nothing wrong from the pics listed around £30 and didn't sell, whilst a 4 wheel loco that I'm sure was around when I was a child sold around £50 after several bids.

 

Cheers

Tom

[Metr0Land]

A bit tricky as you're starting back and probably haven't settled on an area and era yet?  Anyway, welcome back it's a great hobby.

 

My gut feel is to try and find out which ones are good runners of the ones you might like - it'll be frustrating if your re-entry stutters a lot whereas a good runner is likely to rekindle your interest.  I had a V2 some while ago and it wasn't a great runner - more recent ones may be better though I don't believe they've upgraded the chassis. 

 

If funds permit I'd suggest you look for something that's heavily discounted because eg they've brought out another one with different running numbers and there are stocks to clear on the shelves of the big guys.  2 I've bought this way have been the Hornby J50 and Bachmann 64xx however, at the moment these are still £75+ at the big guys.

 

We're a few months away but after Christmas/early in the new year is often a good time.  Not only do the big boys want to generate cashflow but often some smaller shops do as well.  There's a bargain hunters thread on here.  It's a bit sparse at the mo' but always worth keeping an eye on it.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/125236-bargain-hunters-mark-2/

[AdeMoore]

Don’t do what I did, similar to your situation I had a layout for my son that got mothballed after about 2 or 3 years use. Move on 18 years I was ill and house bound (recovered now) so out it came to give me something creative to do, worked well. Anyway to the point I paid £15 for a Jinty non runner being a sparky I thought I could get it going. It was an old triang I didn’t pay enough attention to that, so the back to backs are troublesome. Then I could only get the motor running out of the chassis so had to ask for assistance on here to sort it.

Stuart was diamond on that front.

I’d save my money next time and buy newer. Even new new.

Cheers

Ade

[Tomathee]

Thanks guys, Ade that's exactly one of the things in the back of my mind every time I think about bidding on one. Some are easy to tell the age due to logo on the box etc, some I can google and get an idea, and some I have no clue on. I guess as most things it's not that simple, someone that has looked after a train for 40 years might have it running better than someone that has neglected one only a couple of years old. Added to that some of those that I've looked at completed with a selling price a third of that if I went through the second hand section of some of the main websites that get mentioned a lot, which makes it tempting for a first foray.

 

I've been thinking a lot about area/era, I never really paid any attention to it when I was younger so a lot of it is new and interesting to learn for the first time. Unfortunately it hasn't helped as I like examples from all four regions and I can equally see myself being happy with either the chosen area in its BR or pre-BR colours. One train of thought was go for what would have been local to me e.g. LMS/the BR locos that would have been in the area. But then I miss out on the nice LNER and GWR classes. I had thought about a work around in using or making up an area or if I end up with a station that borders two regions but I guess that doubles the types of any carriages I need to get at a later date. Might try and involve son in this part although he changes his mind before the end of the page, will report back.

 

Thanks again

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It is difficult to advise because some of the information you need is stuff you 'just have to know' to spot a good deal, I recently bought an excellent fairly recent release s/h offered at a very reasonable price 'sold as seen'. The good photos revealed something I had previously experienced on this very model: the body is an awkward pig to relocate correctly in the mechanism. Great buy as it was perfect with the body correctly located.

 

... For instance from recently completed on my watch list a Bachman 2-6-2 (V3? still not fully up on the codes and numbering) described as excellent, boxed with nothing wrong from the pics listed around £30 and didn't sell, whilst a 4 wheel loco that I'm sure was around when I was a child sold around £50 after several bids.

And I can provide a likely explanation: the Bachmann probably a split chassis mechanism, may look great but the mechanism is not that robust and most  spares are no longer available; the horrible little Hornby 0-4-0s have a strong following and are easily fixed and maintained by those that like them.

 

My suggestion would be to look for locos with DCC decoder sockets and NEM coupler pockets. At least there you are getting a model likely to still be in production and thus with spares available.

[Tomathee]

Cheers, I've started looking at DCC ready as I think I'd have that sooner if not from the beginning so it's helped to filter, however as with the tender/loco drive question an NEM coupler isn't usually identified in adverts.

 

I tried a different tack of picking an example era/region/loco and trying to find which brand/version/specific code number(s) were best but I didn't have much success. I'd hoped that by searching something such as 'best 00 gauge LMS black 5 model' (google or here) I'd find a review or discussion on which ones to avoid or go for, so that I don't spend £100 when I could have won a lucky auction and spent £30, just because I wasn't sure the cheaper option was decent.

[woodenhead]

If you are unsure of Ebay why not also look at some of the secondhand websites - it's less wild west with them though you might pay a bit more - Hattons/Rails secondhand is really only for items you really really want as they tend to price higher (and sometimes higher than new).

 

http://www.sandjmodelrailways.co.uk/

http://www.ronlines.com/

http://www.thejunctionbox.net/shop/

 

plus others if you look on Google

 

Link to a topic on secondhand traders http://www.rmweb.co....their-websites/

[Metr0Land]

If you have room and funds, don't dismiss some of the recent 0-6-0 tender offerings.  Bachmann's 3F and Hornby's J15 are lovely runners and would have been used shunting eg pick up goods.  If you can pick up one of these cheaply there's a good chance of you getting a good runner which I feel is important for your re-entry.  These are also models where you might get old stock being discounted heavily to clear shelf space though of course timing, luck and perseverance may be needed

[Metr0Land]

Forgot to mention, I think I'm correct in saying that if you look at Bachmann boxes the lighter blue ones with the broad red stripe across the bottom will all be more modern chassis.

[Nearholmer]

Why not start with a 350hp diesel shunter in an early BR livery? The recent models, and the HD/Wrenn one, have good reputations, and it is a type that has been in service for c65 years. The green livery, and possibly even one black, it was hard to tell, lasted until the 1970s, and they got virtually everywhere.

 

Avoid the terrible Triang one with no outside frames, and probably best to steer clear of the Lima one too.

[Dunsignalling]

Getting a real bargain from any situation where you can't actually see/handle the loco "in the flesh" is largely down to two things; luck and experience.

 

The more you have of the latter, not unsurprisingly, influences how much of the former you get..... 

 

General Rules of Thumb until you work up a level of competence/confidence.

 

Hornby: Avoid anything with tender drive and anything with a 3-digit R number.

 

Bachmann: At least to begin with, go for locos in the newer style boxes. unless you have a collection of old catalogues, working out the age is otherwise difficult. New boxes described in an earlier post but in essence the old ones are shiny with a narrow red band and the newer ones have a satin finish and a broader stripe. You will gradually get the hang of which older models are a safe bet, but that only comes from practice.

 

Lima: I'd say just avoid - most of it looked OK and was "good enough" for its time but that time was a quarter-century ago. However, do look out for the ex-Lima diesels that have been revived by Hornby. These have much-improved motor bogies/wheels, DCC sockets, and usually a better paint job, too.

 

Best advice: Go to real-world swapmeets whenever you get a chance, that will quickly give you a feel for the subject that can't be got on-line.

 

Second best advice: You inevitably will buy the occasional dud and that's the price of education. Chalk it up to experience and treat it as a source of spares.

 

Good Hunting

 

John   

Edited August 14, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Guest teacupteacup]

Getting a real bargain from any situation where you can't actually see/handle the loco "in the flesh" is largely down to two things; luck and experience.

 

The more you have of the latter, not unsurprisingly, influences how much of the former you get..... 

 

General Rules of Thumb until you work up a level of competence/confidence.

 

Hornby: Avoid anything with tender drive and anything with a 3-digit R number.

 

Bachmann: At least to begin with, go for locos in the newer style boxes. unless you have a collection of old catalogues, working out the age is otherwise difficult. New boxes described in an earlier post but in essence the old ones are shiny with a narrow red band and the newer ones have a satin finish and a broader stripe. You will gradually get the hang of which older models are a safe bet, but that only comes from practice.

 

Lima: I'd say just avoid - most of it looked OK and was "good enough" for its time but that time was a quarter-century ago. However, do look out for the ex-Lima diesels that have been revived by Hornby. These have much-improved motor bogies/wheels, DCC sockets, and usually a better paint job, too.

 

Best advice: Go to real-world swapmeets whenever you get a chance, that will quickly give you a feel for the subject that can't be got on-line.

 

Second best advice: You inevitably will buy the occasional dud and that's the price of education. Chalk it up to experience and treat it as a source of spares.

 

Good Hunting

 

John   

Would have to disagree with you, many Lima diesels are still good.  Apart from 2 (Hornby) of my loco fleet are Lima, though one of these has a modern Hornby chassis.

 

The 31 and 37 suffer from mis-matched tooling, and the Deltic is a mismatch of scales, so are best avoided if you are looking for some sort of accuracy

[ejstubbs]

If you are unsure of Ebay why not also look at some of the secondhand websites - it's less wild west with them though you might pay a bit more - Hattons/Rails secondhand is really only for items you really really want as they tend to price higher (and sometimes higher than new).

 

http://www.sandjmodelrailways.co.uk/

http://www.ronlines.com/

http://www.thejunctionbox.net/shop/

 

plus others if you look on Google

 

Link to a topic on secondhand traders http://www.rmweb.co....their-websites/

 

Not mentioned in your post or the thread you link to is The Model Train Shop.  I have used them a couple of times in the recent past and found them perfectly satisfactory.  The product descriptions are a trifle cursory and the photos not particular revealing but they do respond promptly to queries submitted through the form on their web site.

 

Bachmann: At least to begin with, go for locos in the newer style boxes. unless you have a collection of old catalogues, working out the age is otherwise difficult.

 

The Bachmann "Branchline products by item number" listing is quite useful for working how recent a particular model is.  Unfortunately Bachmann stopped updating it after the 2011 edition (on the plus side, I guess anything not on the list will be newer than that!) and it's not even available through their new web site so you have to get it from the Internet Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20171112221118/http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/branchline_products_by_item_no_rev11.pdf

[Dunsignalling]

Would have to disagree with you, many Lima diesels are still good.  Apart from 2 (Hornby) of my loco fleet are Lima, though one of these has a modern Hornby chassis.

 

The 31 and 37 suffer from mis-matched tooling, and the Deltic is a mismatch of scales, so are best avoided if you are looking for some sort of accuracy

"Many" might be (and some of mine are), but I wouldn't nowadays buy anything made by Lima that I couldn't see running first, the stuff is just too old.

 

You might get some locos that haven't done a lot but others will be virtually worn out or have spent a decade being alternately roasted and frozen, dumped in someone's attic..

 

Not a wise internet purchase for a novice, IMHO, which what the OP was asking advice on.

 

John

Edited August 14, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[woodenhead]

Is worth looking at Hattons on an Bachmann or Hornby models as they usually have an old stock item from when new and it will describe the DCC status of the model which is useful when trying to discern whether a model is DCC/DCC Ready or split chassis.

 

Searching via Google seems to bring up hattons at the top of most lists when it comes to model number searches.

 

I've also used this site for checking out the heritage of Hornby product serial numbers http://www.hornbyguide.com/default.asp

Edited August 14, 2018 by woodenhead

[Legend]

Actually I’ve bought a few Lima 47s off of eBay recently and a class 60 for a friends 60th birthday. All ran extremely well .

 

Always check all the pictures for signs of wear etc . Don’t be tempted by really cheap prices, there’s usually a reason for this. I do like references to good runners. While this may not count for much the seller has at least said as much and you would have some redress if it turns out to be a bad one.

 

If not really convinced by eBay have a look at Hattons or Rails new stock. They quite often have some really good deals . Nothing wrong with Hornby Railroad models , I know you are into steam, but for a while there their diesels were at really good prices . The Jinty is worth looking at. Yes not up to the standard of the more recent Bachmann model but it’s probably less than half the price and robust for young hands. I don’t buy second hand from Hattons as I think it’s overpriced . Any model shops near you? They often have second hand and will be able to test run them for you .

 

I’ve got models that were given to me from 1965 through to ones I buy myself, these days . I think the last new one was the Hattons Peckett. Old Triang, Hornby tender drives, in fact my favourites are tender driven 9F from 1974 and a tender drive Mallard. The purists will be horrified, but they run well and are special to me . So don’t let others put you off . Many of these models don’t suit the purists but are perfectly good. If you are into DCC though , possibly best avoid older models (More than 5 years old) as they will be difficult to chip.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Legend

[Tomathee]

Thank you for all the input and discussion, many useful pointers. I'm not going to attempt a 'multiquote', but in summary; Metroland I looked at the specific models you suggested and they both look good and at a price I could live with for experimenting as a beginner. John and others thanks for the tips re. the Bachman boxing. I've also begun to wise up on picking a tender drive out if they put a picture of the underside on the advert, either a cog sticking out in the middle or some of the wheels looking different (like an elastic band around it?).

 

I've also 'had a word' with myself that the purpose of all this was to see how it went with my son, as it felt like I was sliding towards it being my hobby given the amounts I was starting to spend in my head and that it would end up with 'no touching' being barked as he tried to play with my model railway, rather than the 'trainset for a 4 year old' initial brief. So I'm still looking at what I mentioned but I'm also looking for a cheap oval set for him, quite like the GWR mixed traffic type sets when I see them come up. Then I might have his oval and separately do myself a bit of a smaller end to end/shelf type shunting area that I can do as more of a model railway with, and an optional link up to his. Obviously if he then gets bitten by the bug we can go bigger and get a proper layout going.

[Dunsignalling]

Thank you for all the input and discussion, many useful pointers. I'm not going to attempt a 'multiquote', but in summary; Metroland I looked at the specific models you suggested and they both look good and at a price I could live with for experimenting as a beginner. John and others thanks for the tips re. the Bachman boxing. I've also begun to wise up on picking a tender drive out if they put a picture of the underside on the advert, either a cog sticking out in the middle or some of the wheels looking different (like an elastic band around it?).

 

I've also 'had a word' with myself that the purpose of all this was to see how it went with my son, as it felt like I was sliding towards it being my hobby given the amounts I was starting to spend in my head and that it would end up with 'no touching' being barked as he tried to play with my model railway, rather than the 'trainset for a 4 year old' initial brief. So I'm still looking at what I mentioned but I'm also looking for a cheap oval set for him, quite like the GWR mixed traffic type sets when I see them come up. Then I might have his oval and separately do myself a bit of a smaller end to end/shelf type shunting area that I can do as more of a model railway with, and an optional link up to his. Obviously if he then gets bitten by the bug we can go bigger and get a proper layout going.

The thing that looks like an elastic band around the wheel is a traction tyre, and a sure sign of a tender drive.

 

If primarily for a 4-year old, stick to 0-4-0 or 0-6-0 locos without leading or trailing bogies for a couple of years as he/she will get frustrated with trying to put anything that flops about back on the track.

 

John

[Sir TophamHatt]

Also a point to mention is watching the description.

 

Many people state the item is "new" but then the description says "taken out of the box and test run", which then I don't qualify it as new. What's more like is that the person bought it to play around with it, then decided the model isn't worth the money they paid, or it didn't fit with their era.

 

I nearly did this with a Class 450 for a bargain price. But then decided no. I am not 3rd rail and don't think I ever will be, so it would be a waste of money and selling it on for profit would be risky and too much effort for probably not much extra return.

 

As a side note, I sold an iPhone once that was still in the shrink wrap. I took a photo of that and it sold well. Any problems? That's between Apple and them, which sounds risky but have sold other things in the same way and nothing has been a problem as the item is literally brand new so can't have been damaged by me.

[sp1]

Also a point to mention is watching the description.

 

Many people state the item is "new" but then the description says "taken out of the box and test run", which then I don't qualify it as new. What's more like is that the person bought it to play around with it, then decided the model isn't worth the money they paid, or it didn't fit with their era.

 

I nearly did this with a Class 450 for a bargain price. But then decided no. I am not 3rd rail and don't think I ever will be, so it would be a waste of money and selling it on for profit would be risky and too much effort for probably not much extra return.

 

As a side note, I sold an iPhone once that was still in the shrink wrap. I took a photo of that and it sold well. Any problems? That's between Apple and them, which sounds risky but have sold other things in the same way and nothing has been a problem as the item is literally brand new so can't have been damaged by me.

Some retailers routinely test models before sending them out - do you not class those as new: I would prefer to buy something that has been tested rather than go through the hassle of returning a ‘dud’

[Sir TophamHatt]

Some retailers routinely test models before sending them out - do you not class those as new: I would prefer to buy something that has been tested rather than go through the hassle of returning a ‘dud’

Testing should be done before it's packaged up for retail. Do these people not have faith in the manufacturer?

 

I see it as someone buying a multipack of crisps, opening the outer bag just to make sure there's the right amount of inner bags inside, then handing it to you half open.

 

It's pretty rare to get a "dud" though. You could say that's because of the testing but I'd have thought it's more because the manufacturing process is good enough to get 95%+ correct.

[Tomathee]

Thanks guys, I'm fortunate enough to have a model shop in walking distance of home and one within a lunchtime walk at work, both of which I've visited in the last couple of weeks, picked up a couple of Peco books as well. Those along with the links and other sites I've seen have given me plenty of food for thought so I've some work to do. I have until November or December to get it in place, depending on it being a birthday or Christmas gift and I will report back with progress.

 

Cheers again for all the input

[John M Upton]

Do these people not have faith in the manufacturer?

 

In a word, no!!

[D9020 Nimbus]

I don't think manufacturers can test every item—more likely only a sample are tested.

 

If these items are to be used by a young child it might be worth avoiding the most recent models, as there is a lot of fragile detail on them. I'd suggest the best bet at the present might be some of the ex-Dapol models in the Horby range, such as the J94, "Pug" and Terrier. Also the GW 14xx now in the Railroad range (though the 0-6-0Ts in that range are not particularly good runners, IMHO).

 

Bachmann items from the same era have split frame chassis, and can be more problematical — it might be better to buy those you can see run first, unless they are cheap.

 

Finally, if you get a secondhand loco that runs badly, try cleaning the wheels first—it can make a big difference. Also, a re-railer can make it a lot easier to get a loco on the track!

[Il Grifone]

Welcome to RMweb

 

I would go for new equipment to start. A simple 0-6-0T, a couple of coaches and a few wagons plus track (Peco Setrack is recommended - avoid steel rail as keeping it clean is a nightmare). Once familar with this, one can experiment with the very variable second hand market - start with clean untouched examples. Any problems, ask here we will be happy to advise.

 

A good controller is a must. Gaugemaster has good recommendations, but I can't advise as I'm still in the vintage world of variable transformers - good and cheap, but their age means they could be an electrical hazard (H & M Powermaster).