Are Wood burning domestic stoves a greater death risk than diesel road vehicles ?

[runs as required]

I listened to a very impassioned talk last night by a former colleague about the killer wood burning stoves lurking in our midst.
He claimed that the more effective the house insulation, the more deadly will be the wood burning stove.  A thermostatic control will turn combustion down increasing killer PM2.5 emission !

PM2.5 are atmospheric Particular Matter with a diameter  >2.5 micrometres and invisible except with a electron microscope.
More deadly than visible dust, PM2.5 can pass through the lungs and enter the blood stream and brain unfiltered.  This causes DNA mutations, heart and respiratory diseases and is an influence on mental conditions (Alzheimers).

Worldwide PM2.5 emissions killed 3 million in 2012, more than malaria and flu. In China 800,00 deaths; in India 600,000, in Europe 480,000 (WHO modelling with Univ of Bath).

 

In UK  PM2.5 emissions may now exceed emissions from all road transport. 2013 DEFRA figs: 17% for PM2.5; 18% for road transport.  

He claims that much more cost effective than prioritising transport emissions would be banning wood burning stoves in well-to-do middle class residential areas.
He was talking  in Wylam, now a rather posh Tyne valley residential “village”. Someone commented that it was a more hazardous place to live nowadays than in its former smoky mining and early 'Puffing Billy' past of 200 years ago!

 

We live in Gateshead which is still a ‘smokeless zone’ (preventing coal burning PM10 emissions). But this is not enforced for burning wood in stoves. Noticeable once more in these autumnal evenings is a pleasant aroma of woodsmoke on the air. I never realised the smell was a KILLER !
 

Is my old ‘Evironmental Engineer’ colleague a crackpot ?

dh

Edited October 6, 2018 by runs as required

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It was a massive mistake moving further from the equator than the subtropical zones into locations where artificial heating is required, and the policy makers responsible need to engage in a broad rethink and the implementation of rapid corrective actions. Don't mess around with band aids for symptoms, fix the underlying problem.

 

Move all the population to planned settlements in the warm zones, automate and roboticise as much as possible of the farming, mineral extraction and manufacturing in the less hospitable climes, with small crews of pressure suit protected specialists rotating in and out on maintenance and new development assignments.

 

Could solve a great many other problems too.

No more refugee flows from warm to cold, the 'better life' will be in the warm places.

All that holiday traffic to warmer places eliminated, because you live there already, think of the savings.

No more children in sweat shops making clothes, most of the time we'll only need bathers.

[spikey]

 

Is my old ‘Evironmental Engineer’ colleague a crackpot ?

 

 

I don't know, but if it makes him happy to believe that, there's no harm in it AFAIC.  People have all sorts of daft ideas.

 

What I do know is that I've only ever come across one wood-burner which was thermostatically controlled, and it was a girt big thing used to heat a carpenter's workshop.  If he wants to ring alarm bells about something to do with domestic wood-burning stoves, IMO he'd do better to bang on about CO alarms, chimney sweeping, not burning wet wood, and not trying to keep one burning all night 

[w124bob]

No, in a word. I don't know anyone with a word burner either personally or in my immediate neighbourhood, but just a quick glance out of my front window and I can count at least a dozen diesel cars all used daily winter or summer. I'll take this seriously when other countries start banning wood as a heating source, in much of rural France wood is very much the most common source of heating fuel. I also spent 40 years driving diesel powered trains without any health issues(142back excepted!).

[Oldddudders]

 in much of rural France wood is very much the most common source of heating fuel.

 

The stacks of wood, seasoning in yards, gardens and orchards can be impressive. When a house is sold, the stack of wood may not be part of the sale! With so much woodland it is the fuel of choice for many, with woodburners that never cool down in the winter months. I only light mine on cold days and holidays. 

[37114]

We have a wood burner and it is lit every day in winter. It is not thermostatically controlled and we have 4 years worth of wood all of it acquired for free. With rising energy prices I am not about to scale back its use, especially as the alternative is to put the gas boiler on which is not particularly environmentally friendly.

Edited October 6, 2018 by 37114

[letterspider]

Disclaimer - I am not a Doctor -

 

PM2.5 soot should pose little or no health problem if it was solely carbon (soot) which is chemically inert in the body

 

The problem arises that soot particulates adsorb and concentrate the potency of other pollutants, such as nitrogen and sulphur oxides - so these are the real villains here. Burning wood - you would perhaps have greater cancer risk from incomplete combustion products of lignin and proteins, which would produce carcinogens. The PM2.5 would act as a very useful delivery system of them to all the parts of your body.

I am looking to build in a powered fan to my wood burning stove to increase efficiency and reduce this problem

 

Small Particulates can also adsorb allergens and increase their potency

 

For example when I am abroad and in the countryside I have no problems with cat fur and feathers. When I return to London first thing I notice is my sense of smell disappears and then wihtin a week I have major problems with both of those allergens.

 

So I am interested in this research you mention - I know this is a modelling forum but please post the links.

 

With regards to anything that small - I would say your biggest worry should be viruses - they are really deadly and can cause death from acute organ failure or, if you are slightly less unlucky can cause DNA mutations that lead to a pretty broad range of cancers.

 

If you are reading this right now and haven't yet done so - get a flu vaccine (TESCO £10) as this year we can expect a very nasty strain.

 

For less than the price of 1/6 of a Bachmann 2f - it could save your life

 

Happy modelling!

Edited October 6, 2018 by letterspider

[spikey]

The stacks of wood, seasoning in yards, gardens and orchards can be impressive.

 

As can the holzhausen or holzmieten in Germany ...

 

[runs as required]

Thanks for your interesting responses. I'm very sorry for not proof reading the thread title - I can't find a way of sorting it.

 

I should say a little more about the session:

He started with a "hands up" question; about 25% of the audience were pleased to indicate they'd got wood burning stoves.(some of whom also owned electric and hybrid cars).

It became apparent that there were different factions

1. my old colleague, labelling himself a scientist, advocated his preference for electrically driven heatpumps.for domestic use - available off the peg in Spain built by Spanish Bosch. The electricity comes preferably from wind/solar, or from gas (or from large bio mass power stations with hi-voltage filtration equipment on the flues)
    
2. The Greens - the majority at the meeting, who my former colleague accused of  'treating green as a religion' - going back to an imagined past
    
3. A couple of 'Nukes' who advocated friendly 'Neighborhood' Candu fail safe reactors (such as apparently in US aircraft carriers) to produce electricity.- the Greens certainly did not like them!
    
4. Several local politicians who argued 'the art of the possible' in terms of evolving public demand (i.e. votes).
    
5. Others, along with myself (a retired architect* and planner) who work in NHS and in various local and regional offices - for whom a lot of this was new
   
   dh
   
   * quite a common spec for a low energy house (new build or conversion from 'shell') for several decades now has been extremely high insulation, an air handling system (to guard against condensation) and a wood or biomass boiler thermostatically controlled - plus perhaps an underground heat pump..

[BWsTrains]

I listened to a very impassioned talk last night by a former colleague about the killer wood burning stoves lurking in our midst.

He claimed that the more effective the house insulation, the more deadly will be the wood burning stove.  A thermostatic control will turn combustion down increasing killer PM2.5 emission !

I don't know this exact case but in Victoria Australia, high profile deaths have occurred when old fashioned room Gas heaters that can unintentionally vent into the house are operated once houses are fully draft insulated. The parallel with your case is clear.

 

Your average older Aussie house leaks like a sieve and gas heaters up to 40-50 yrs old are still in operation. Now these older houses are better insulated in interest of energy efficiency. This can lead to increased CO levels which are highly toxic and Mandatory testing has been brought in.

 

It seems totally logical that any internal combustion device should vent gases and particulates 100.0% to the exterior.

 

Colin

 

Edit: now having seen later replies my comments are clearly tangential, still the point about heater leaks in well insulated houses bears noting.

Edited October 6, 2018 by BWsTrains

[jjb1970]

The EA have been pretty concerned about the increase in biomass use in urban areas for a long time.

[The Stationmaster]

The bit about insulation is. I think, irrelevant.  Our house was completed in 2007 and on test, secured a far higher score than was legally required for insulation property measured through heat loss (a standard test then and presumably still in order to check compliance with the Building Regulations).   But, and it is a critical 'but', the living room where the wood burner is situated also has the necessary ventilation prescribed by the Building Regulations/stove manufacturers to be included when a wood burning stove of that size is fitted - in plain English it is a hole in the outside wall.  Just the same, although to different dimensions, as the requirement for use with gas fires and gas fired back boilers of certain types.

 

So irrespective of the standard of insulation the critical feature would seem to be - a far as the Building Regulations and any decent stove supplier are concerned - the provision of the necessary ventilation of the room where the stove is situated.  In addition to that the design and servicing servicing of the stove presumably has to comply with various standards - that is certainly case according to all the literature which came with our stove.

 

Which leads me to one very important question - is your old environmental engineer colleague really suggesting that the various standards and regulations applicable to wood burning stoves are wrong/inadequate or is he suggesting that it is people who do not comply with those standards who are creating a problem (or both)?

 

Having had experience over the years of open coal fires and, in recent years a wood burning (actually dual fuel) stove I find that invariably and depending on the wood burned the wood fuel leaves far less and much cleaner ash than some grades of house coal and it deposits far less (if any) 'muck' outside as a result of combustion.  But we invariably use clean natural wood for fuel and i carefully avoid any wood with any sort of chemical or paint treatment in/on it.  and in the coming weeks I shall have added to my fuel store the results of the tree surgeons' efforts in my back garden with cherry, hazel, apple, and sycamore logs to weather down over a year or two before use and soem fir to be given at least 7 years seasoning/weathering.

[APOLLO]

 

I'll say no more about burning wood - cough cough splutter !!!!

 

This afternoon we took the twin girls to Salford University for a visit. We were shown "the house" - and the University is very proud of it. What is Salford Uni's house you may ask -

 

The School of the Built Environment is home to the unique Energy House – the only fully climate controlled research facility in the world. Built in 2011, this full sized two bedroom terraced house is built inside an environmental  chamber  can  replicate almost any weather conditions. It is fully furnished and packed with a vast array of sensors that can monitor a wide range of variables throughout the house and chamber.

 

More info here   https://www.salford.ac.uk/built-environment/laboratories-and-studios/energy-house

 

The aim is to study the options etc of energy reduction (insulation, appliances etc) on Britain's older buildings and infrastructure. 

 

What a superb bit of research this is and I wish them well. This is research that should have been done years ago in my opinion.

 

Girls not too interested though, one wishes to study Physics and the other Biology. Manchester Uni next week, already done Lancaster & both Liverpool's. Still I'm more than happy that they both wish to study science subjects.

 

Brit15

[BoD]

Oh, for peat's sake.

[APOLLO]

[Andy Hayter]

I think there is a real danger of mixing up different issues regarding burning of wood.

 

Runs as Required talks of his friend being worried about fine particulate carbon, but the link in his second post is concerned about polycyclic organic materials.  These are most definitely not the same thing.  There is as others have posted the issue of inadequate air to allow proper combustion and the release of carbon monoxide (which is a very powerful poison.)

 

It is important to keep these three issues separate even if they all result from the burning of materials - and it does not need to be wood.  It could be coal, gas, oil - they all potentially have the same issues, although wood, coke and coal are more likely to be problems simply because they are materials of variable composition.  This means that having an optimum burning environment is more difficult with these materials than gas or oil which are pretty much pure materials and where the burner and burning environment can be optimised to ensure clean and efficient combustion.  Of course if the boiler has not been serviced for years then it is probably not working at the optimum.

 

So to the specifics of burning wood.  There are certainly some issues with the polycyclic organic materials and in France burning wood on an open fire (as opposed to in a wood burner or stove) is now banned in large towns and cities.  Such fires also tend to emit a relatively large amount of soot and so quite possibly could be adding to the very fine particulate load.

 

I am uncertain how high insulation levels impacts on particulate generation, but then the only thermostatically controlled fires I have seen have been pellet burners.  I cannot see how you control the amount of fuel being fed to a wood fire by a thermostat.  You either chuck on another log, or you don't.  I guess therefore that such a device works by restricting or enhancing the amount of air being fed to the fire. This would certainly seem to give the opportunity to increase partial combustion of the wood and release of the polycyclics and ultimately increasing the amount of carbon monoxide generated.  Whether it also impacts on fine particle generation I cannot say.  

 

I would think however that the quantities of fine particulates from wood fires are far outweighed by the amounts generated in internal combustion engines.  The very fine particles are too small to be captured in particle filters.

[melmerby]

If you are reading this right now and haven't yet done so - get a flu vaccine (TESCO £10) as this year we can expect a very nasty strain.

 

 

Happy modelling!

I've been having a flu vaccine free for many years (long before I was the age that qualifies for free anyway) due to an underlying health problem.

This year apparently there is a shortage and I am having to wait a month for my jab after booking it, instead of the usual couple of days.

 

Keith

[E3109]

In Laos they routinely use plastic water bottles as firefighters, and very effective they are too.

Me and a few railway friends were on holiday there a few years ago, at a lovely place called Vang Vieng.

It gets rather cool there when the sun goes down so naturally, we set about raising a fire using the above methods, supplemented of course by vast amounts of scrap wood.

 

An hour or so later, we had a lovely alfresco bonfire and it was a rather pleasant environment for 30 minutes or so. The lady whose land it was was cooking freshly-caught fish on it at one point.

 

Unfortunately, Vang Vieng has in recent years become something of a deadbeat hippy hangout and like moths to a candle, our fire attracted vast numbers of said deadbeats.

 

We continued to load our fire with fuel, the locals assisted because they love fires too.

Anyway. After about an hour, one of The Great Unwashed piped up, "hey man, stop making that fire so hot".

Told him it was OUR fire, "if you don't like it then clear off", and then made it even hotter by burning his flip flops.

[melmerby]

 

Thanks for your interesting responses. I'm very sorry for not proof reading the thread title - I can't find a way of sorting it.

 

.

 

Go to your first post. Select "Use Full Editor" and you can change the title.

 

Keith

[Oldddudders]

I've been having a flu vaccine free for many years (long before I was the age that qualifies for free anyway) due to an underlying health problem.

This year apparently there is a shortage and I am having to wait a month for my jab after booking it, instead of the usual couple of days.

 

Keith

That’s horrid. I have had my annual letter from the health professor telling me the vaccine is available from my chemist as of today. I have to pay a couple of euros to a pretty nurse to inject me. Bargain! An occasional asthmatic, I had pneumonia after flu in 2000. While recovery was good, it’s a risk I’d rather not take, thanks, at almost 70. Incidentally, as I’m over 65, all my heathcare costs incurred by the French nation are reimbursed by Newcastle. How will that work after Brexit?

[APOLLO]

Flue jab £7 at Asda, Mrs had one yesterday, mine due next couple of weeks at our local health centre. I'll have it done there rather than Asda so they keep my records straight.

 

Incomplete combustion (of any fuel) gives off nasties. A natural gas appliance burning incorrectly can emit poisonous carbon monoxide (CO). Don't mess with gas appliances and get them checked / serviced annually by a Gas Safe registered engineer. Buy a CO  detector for open flued appliances (gas fires). Not expensive and could save your life.

 

Brit15

 

.

[melmerby]

 Incidentally, as I’m over 65, all my heathcare costs incurred by the French nation are reimbursed by Newcastle. How will that work after Brexit?

You will have to fly back to have your flu jab

 

Keith

[Guius]

I've burned wood on stoves and open fires all my life, most of my wood comes from 'wrecking' along the beach supplemented now a days by pallets and the like from skips. The only caveat being - don't burn paint or treated timber or any of the poison woods like Yew, Greenheart. The remaining ash goes into the compost heap as potash. Ironically, by the time I've cut an evenings quota of wood I'm warm enough! Then, of course, the lean-to pile of 'that's too good to burn' timber grows ever larger.

 

Guy

 

I don't actually entices ships on to rocks with swinging lanterns at night btw

[letterspider]

I've been having a flu vaccine free for many years (long before I was the age that qualifies for free anyway) due to an underlying health problem.

This year apparently there is a shortage and I am having to wait a month for my jab after booking it, instead of the usual couple of days.

 

Keith

 

I'd pay for it if I was you. I've seen a few people go down with it - they didn't look too good for about a week. Then, despite my best precautionary measures I am now on day 1 of a miserable, energy sapping, joint busting, memory mashing, lung gasping viral roller coaster

...forgot to mention - throat rasping

Edited October 6, 2018 by letterspider

[E3109]

I've burned wood on stoves and open fires all my life, most of my wood comes from 'wrecking' along the beach supplemented now a days by pallets and the like from skips. The only caveat being - don't burn paint or treated timber or any of the poison woods like Yew, Greenheart. The remaining ash goes into the compost heap as potash. Ironically, by the time I've cut an evenings quota of wood I'm warm enough! Then, of course, the lean-to pile of 'that's too good to burn' timber grows ever larger.

 

Guy

 

I don't actually entices ships on to rocks with swinging lanterns at night btw

A good mate scrounges unwanted bits of defunct wood from railway sites, he's a big advocate of wood stoves but he won't touch sleepers however rotten they may be, as apparently the detritus collected there from train toilets over the years makes it hazardous.