Are Wood burning domestic stoves a greater death risk than diesel road vehicles ?

[Reorte]

Title;

Are Wood burning domestic stoves a greater death risk than diesel road vehicles ?

 

Well you are less likely to get knocked down by a wood burning domestic stove

 

Hat.....coat

.

 

gone.

Maybe I should've thought harder on that when I was moving the old, rusty one out of the house and into the garden!

[E3109]

As a (perhaps flippant) aside, it's a fact of life that men like fires.

You only need to look at pics of picketers huddling around 45 gallon drums with holes in them during the Winter of Discontent to know this is true.

Men like burning stuff, it's part of the human condition!

[Horsetan]

As a (perhaps flippant) aside, it's a fact of life that men like fires.

You only need to look at pics of picketers huddling around 45 gallon drums with holes in them during the Winter of Discontent to know this is true.

Men like burning stuff, it's part of the human condition!

That's why we have arsonists.

 

If you absolutely must keep your stove or fireplace, and are thinking about alternatives to wood, might I suggest this?

 

 

 

...and the beauty of it is that there is an almost inexhaustible supply of the stuff from your nearest riding school, livery yard, field......

Edited October 7, 2018 by Horsetan

[runs as required]

It is probably time to wind up this test on RMweb; surprising that it went to 50 posts over 3 pages.

I’d better come clean and confess I’m a bigger sinner than all of you who have been good enough to post.

 

Along with the 09 plate dirty old diesel Mondeo outside, I have an even dirtier secret through the front door - not even a stove but a huge log burning open fireplace in the hall !

We’ve lived here 43 years and have always fed the voracious brute with fallen dead wood we all drag up from the dene outside.  Shortly after we moved in we had the chimney swept (the big old house had been derelict for a good few years before) the sweep discovered it has a back-to-front-oven. He explained how the family would warm their bottoms up after returning from church while the cook continued basting the Sunday joint from the passageway behind.
The fire totally refused to draw at first then I remembered about  Count Rumford  and  set  about modifying the throat and stilting the heavy fire basket complying with his dims until I got it drawing really well.  It still does, though nowadays we light it no more than a dozen times a year to welcome visitors who battle up the A1 in grizzly weather. "What a lovely smell" they always remark.

 

If you have read the stuff I linked you to above – you'll have gathered this is exactly when the invisible PM2.5 stuff is at its most murderous!  

So our stone flagged hall is far safer when it is at its usual icy cold.

dh

Edited October 8, 2018 by runs as required

[PatB]

Title;

Are Wood burning domestic stoves a greater death risk than diesel road vehicles ?

 

Well you are less likely to get knocked down by a wood burning domestic stove

 

Hat.....coat

.

 

gone.

 

Having once shared the back of a Transit with an unsecured Rayburn I'd dispute this .

 

Seriously though, here in WA wood is still a major heating fuel. I think a lot of the more urban local authorities may have banned woodburners, or at least placed heavy restrictions on them, but outside the cities (and not far outside really) the woodburner is very, very common indeed. I dunno about the PM2.5 emissions but the bigger stuff can make the air a bit thick in country towns on winter evenings. It's not helped by the fact that a lot (the majority?) of WA houses, until recently, had/have no effective insulation. Mine included until I reroofed it in 2006. Regardless of potential pollution issues we still use a woodburner as our primary heating. It's a good one which we were lucky enough to obtain from friends who were going to reverse cycle aircon. There's no way we could have afforded anything as good buying new. Once lit it generates very little visible smoke, even when shut right down, and we burn jarrah wood which creates very little ash. So little that I only have to clean it out at the end of winter.

 

Realistically, it's hard to deny that inhaling carbon based combustion products of any kind is going to be bad for ones health. The question is, just how much do we inhale and how big is the actual risk compared to all the other hazardous things we're all exposed to on a daily basis? As a cynic, I found it noteworthy that anti-woodburner sentiment only really started to ramp up here when there was an explosion in the availability of reverse-cycle aircons and the number of companies selling and installing them. Anyone want to play a game of follow the money?

[Fenman]

I’m another one living in a remote rural setting. A consideration here - perhaps different from towns and cities - is that we are way down the list of priority areas to have electricity reconnected after storms have cut us off*. It’s therefore essential to have some heating which is not reliant on external power. A low-tech woodburner is about as self-reliant as you can get.

 

The house I bought a few years ago already had a Danish stove which is, apparently, near-80% efficient. There is no shortage of properly seasoned wood available from all the managed woodland in these parts.

 

I’d be curious to see how many tonnes of particulates are pumped out by diesel cars compared to woodburners. Though in reading this topic I’m probably biased by the old rule in journalism: if the headline is in the form of a question, the answer is invariably “no”.

 

Paul

 

* The very modest storm a couple of weeks ago led to half a dozen or so micro power cuts, the longest no more than a couple of minutes. But enough to make you aware of the vulnerability of power supplies to remote country areas.

[jjb1970]

I have just had a demonstration of the eco friendliness of diesel exhaust as a class 37 has been sat in Bletchley Station idling. Maybe years ago it was accepted as normal but it is amazing just how objectionable it is nowadays for a smoky engine to be just left ticking over so it can belch voluminous amounts of noxious smoke. This may upset the syphon fans and bashers but if the things need to be left ticking over with that level of smoke then the railways should be ordered to dispose of them.

[boxbrownie]

It is probably time to wind up this test on RMweb; surprising that it went to 50 posts over 3 pages.

 

 

hall.jpg

We’ve lived here 43 years and have always fed the voracious brute with fallen dead wood we all drag up from the dene outside.

Maybe it’s time to buy a Dyson then?

[Reorte]

I have just had a demonstration of the eco friendliness of diesel exhaust as a class 37 has been sat in Bletchley Station idling. Maybe years ago it was accepted as normal but it is amazing just how objectionable it is nowadays for a smoky engine to be just left ticking over so it can belch voluminous amounts of noxious smoke. This may upset the syphon fans and bashers but if the things need to be left ticking over with that level of smoke then the railways should be ordered to dispose of them.

Should a class 37 be belching out noticeable amounts when idling (if the engine isn't cold)? I know you know far more about engines than me but I tend to take the view that unless it's been worked hard "belching" usually indicates something wrong.

[PhilJ W]

There have been instances were wood burning stoves have set off carbon monoxide alarms. On one instance the fire brigade was called to find the source of the gas. It was near the wood burner, a bucket of hot ash recently removed from the burner. Apparently the hot ash gives off enormous ammounts of CO and should be removed from the house ASAP.

Edited October 8, 2018 by PhilJ W

[IWCR]

The continued use of class 37s is the result of enviromental legislation.

Ideally these should now be gone and have been replaced by locos more efficient and less polluting.

However, finding / developing an appropriatly  sized engine which will fit within a loco to UK loading gauge and meet current emission requirements is extremely difficult, any new builds / refits have to meet these  and the market (UK) for them is limited.  The class 37 predates these requirements  and hence has no need to conform  to them.

Yes better engines are available but these do not meet the new emission limits hence cannot be used even though they would be an improvement on the current ones.

 

Pete

[Reorte]

There have been instances were wood burning stoves have set off carbon monoxide alarms. On one instance the fire brigade was called to find the source of the gas. It was near the wood burner, a bucket of hot ash recently removed from the burner. Apparently the hot ash gives off enormous ammounts of CO2 and should be removed from the house ASAP.

Could be, it'll probably be partially burning the remaining carbon, not very efficiently although contained within the stove it should be OK (the flue should still be warm enough to draw, if it wasn't no-one would've survived when everyone had an open fire).

 

The problem with hot ash is finding a decent metal bucket to put it in. Looked everywhere but all I could find were pail imitations... (I'll get my coat!)

[Fenman]

There have been instances were wood burning stoves have set off carbon monoxide alarms. On one instance the fire brigade was called to find the source of the gas. It was near the wood burner, a bucket of hot ash recently removed from the burner. Apparently the hot ash gives off enormous ammounts of CO2 and should be removed from the house ASAP.

 

I found that a bit perplexing: why would you even remove hot ash from a wood burning stove?

 

Mine burns pretty much everything to the finest ash, so the total amount of ash it produces is tiny: in the depths of winter I empty it *maybe* once a month or two (the next morning, when it's cold!). 

 

My curiosity was piqued, and a quick check showed the latest no-tech woodburners from Nordic countries to be achieving more than 80% efficiency. That shouldn't produce much waste at all, should it?

 

Paul

[Horsetan]

You could bag all the ash and flog it as scenic material for layouts....

[Edwin_m]

There have been instances were wood burning stoves have set off carbon monoxide alarms. On one instance the fire brigade was called to find the source of the gas. It was near the wood burner, a bucket of hot ash recently removed from the burner. Apparently the hot ash gives off enormous ammounts of CO2 and should be removed from the house ASAP.

Sorry to be pedantic but there's a world of difference between carbon monoxide (CO) and carbon dioxide (CO₂).  CO₂ results from complete combustion of carbon and can asphyxiate, but not until it reaches a relatively high concentration.  CO results from combustion of carbon in relatively oxygen-poor environments and is picked up by haemoglobin in preference to oxygen so can cause death at much lower concentration.  Which are you referring to here? 

[Reorte]

Sorry to be pedantic but there's a world of difference between carbon monoxide (CO) and carbon dioxide (CO₂). CO₂ results from complete combustion of carbon and can asphyxiate, but not until it reaches a relatively high concentration. CO results from combustion of carbon in relatively oxygen-poor environments and is picked up by haemoglobin in preference to oxygen so can cause death at much lower concentration. Which are you referring to here?

Could be CO, apparently it's legislation now that CO alarms have to be fitted when a stove is fitted.

[Nick C]

As mentioned above, modern woodburners are very efficient, and if properly installed and using proprly seasoned, dry wood, will result in almost total combustion, and thus very little PM2.5 emissions - older ones and open fires aren't so good though!

 

There's a DEFRA report from a few years ago that analyses all of the PM2.5 emissions for the whole of the UK. The breakdown, using 2009 figures (2020 estimate in brackets, all values in kilotonnes ): 

• Energy combustion (i.e. power stations) 4.8 (5.4)
• Industrial Combustion 3.1 (2.6)
• Road Transport (exhaust) 12.4 (2.0)
• Road Transport (non-exhaust) 7.8 (8.8)
• Other transport (rail, air, navigation) 2.0 (1.3)
• Off-Road transport 8.0 (2.9)
• Residential 9.8 (7.9)
• Quarrying 1.9 (1.7)
• Other mineral 2.1 (2.5)
• Iron & Steel 2.5 (2.2)
• Agriculture 1.9 (1.9)
• Small-scale waste burning 4.1 (4.1)
• Other combustion 5.3 (4.0)
• Other non-combustion 5.0 (5.8)

Wood-burners will come under residential, so likely to be a large chunk of the whole, particularly in cities (in rural areas there's logically a lower density of emittors of any variety, so it's easier for the particulates to dissipate). The road exhaust emissions are predicted to drop dramatically, which is as we'd expect as people move away from Diesel towards electric vehicles, and the IC vehicles get more efficient. The key one to worry about, however, is the "Road transport (non exhaust) category" - they're predicting that'll be the worst by 2020, and no-one seems to be considering it at all.

 

It's caused by tyre and brake wear, and the wear of the road surface from vehicles. So therefore we should worry less about getting rid of Diesel cars, and start trying to reduce the amount that ANY cars are being used - primarily in cities, where the concentrations of particulates are highest, and public transport networks are already well established. Bring back trams (steel wheels on steel rails - less wear, especially with modern electromagnetic braking), make public transport easier to use, encourage walking more. Give companies incentives to encourage flexible and/or remote working to reduce commuting. Build more park-n-ride facilities to encourage people coming in from rural areas to park on the outskirts and get the train in. Generally the use of a private car in a city should become the exception rather than the rule. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I've been having a flu vaccine free for many years (long before I was the age that qualifies for free anyway) due to an underlying health problem.

This year apparently there is a shortage and I am having to wait a month for my jab after booking it, instead of the usual couple of days.

 

Keith

I've not even been offered mine yet this year.

[Kickstart]

It's caused by tyre and brake wear, and the wear of the road surface from vehicles. So therefore we should worry less about getting rid of Diesel cars, and start trying to reduce the amount that ANY cars are being used - primarily in cities, where the concentrations of particulates are highest, and public transport networks are already well established. Bring back trams (steel wheels on steel rails - less wear, especially with modern electromagnetic braking), make public transport easier to use, encourage walking more. Give companies incentives to encourage flexible and/or remote working to reduce commuting. Build more park-n-ride facilities to encourage people coming in from rural areas to park on the outskirts and get the train in. Generally the use of a private car in a city should become the exception rather than the rule.

 

Not sure it helps. From memory the most polluted parts of London for particle emissions us the underground network.

 

Katy

[Southernman46]

Flue jab

 

.

Saw what you did there ........................

[runs as required]

Even priority patients at our surgery are being told to wait another 5 weeks for flu jabs despite many of us being sent "texts" to get in and make appointmends....

Am I just being cynical?

regards

Ian

The mapping of access to health is another 'secret' issue. The woman who chaired the session that initiated this thread researches access to health.

Generally the places folk like to retire to: the Lakes, Bournemouth, Eastbourne, Cambrian Coast, Galloway are the worst places for survival.

Smugly: Gateshead is just 20 mins away from one of the top rated teaching hospital trusts in the country. Plenty of cheap houses under £40 grand !

dh

[Mark Saunders]

 however, is the "Road transport (non exhaust) category" - they're predicting that'll be the worst by 2020, and no-one seems to be considering it at all.

 

It's caused by tyre and brake wear, and the wear of the road surface from vehicles, make public transport easier to use, encourage walking more.

 

. Build more park-n-ride facilities to encourage people coming in from rural areas to park on the outskirts and get the train in. Generally the use of a private car in a city should become the exception rather than the rule. 

 

Tyres wear but there is no mention of where all the small particles go and is this the reason why there is more latex intolerance now?

 

After about 12 years the A6055 (A1 local access road) running from the A61 jct 50 Rippon turn to the A684 jct 51 for Leeming has been resurfaced using the cheapest option of Tar and Chipping increasing tyre wear and noise. Even the A59 duel carriageway between Newcastle and Hexham has this cheap treatment!

 

Park and Ride is not the whole answer as York is wedded to its Park and Ride, the recently built one at Poppleton is purely aimed at sending everyone by bus when the Station is about quarter of a mile away! The Ideal position would have been just off the A1 at Goldsborough and given use of rail to both York and Harrogate.

 

Mark Saunders

[Ohmisterporter]

It is probably time to wind up this test on RMweb; surprising that it went to 50 posts over 3 pages.

I’d better come clean and confess I’m a bigger sinner than all of you who have been good enough to post.

 

Along with the 09 plate dirty old diesel Mondeo outside, I have an even dirtier secret through the front door - not even a stove but a huge log burning open fireplace in the hall !

hall.jpg

We’ve lived here 43 years and have always fed the voracious brute with fallen dead wood we all drag up from the dene outside.  Shortly after we moved in we had the chimney swept (the big old house had been derelict for a good few years before) the sweep discovered it has a back-to-front-oven. He explained how the family would warm their bottoms up after returning from church while the cook continued basting the Sunday joint from the passageway behind.

The fire totally refused to draw at first then I remembered about  Count Rumford  and  set  about modifying the throat and stilting the heavy fire basket complying with his dims until I got it drawing really well.  It still does, though nowadays we light it no more than a dozen times a year to welcome visitors who battle up the A1 in grizzly weather. "What a lovely smell" they always remark.

 

If you have read the stuff I linked you to above – you'll have gathered this is exactly when the invisible PM2.5 stuff is at its most murderous!  

So our stone flagged hall is far safer when it is at its usual icy cold.

dh

 

Thanks for the link to Count Rumford, the man who invented thermal underwear. My hero!

[APOLLO]

Quick note about Flu Jabs, apparently a different vaccine is used for over 65's - and it is this that is in short supply. Just told this by Asda Pharmacy. They have no date for delivery.

 

Anyway were stuffed !!

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45775309

 

Brit15

[Pacific231G]

Not sure it helps. From memory the most polluted parts of London for particle emissions us the underground network.

 

Katy

ISTR that one reason for the particular deadliness of the London smog of 1952 was held to be the replacement of trams by diesel buses. That added to the already present causes including domestic coal fires, steam locomotives, and urban power stations.