Are Wood burning domestic stoves a greater death risk than diesel road vehicles ?

[Ozexpatriate]

I'm curious as to what contemporary wood burning stoves look like in the UK.

 

Here they seem to range from legged barrel shaped things that belong in a turn of the (20th) century caboose to grey metal boxes usually with a window to view the fire. A popular variant here is the "Franklin Stove" named for you know who, who claimed to have invented one.

 

My personal experience of them is:

1. A Victorian-era Queensland Railways issue range (for cooking and water heating) which might well have actually dated to the late 1800s and was situated in the Station Master's residence. Occasionally the railway delivered a wagon load of wood which was then split as needed by the Station Master's strapping lads. It also served as desirable heat in the winter. From first-hand memory this was still in regular use up to the 1980s. Eventually an electric range was also installed. Cooking on a wood range is the sub-tropical summer heat was miserable.
2. A partly glass box in the middle of the floor with a flue leading up out of the roof in a rental chalet in Big Bear (alpine mountains north of LA) which, when we used it, was scorching hot and we had to open the windows. That I was coming down with a case of strep throat that weekend did not help the discomfort.

[jonny777]

Living with large scale wildfires in the last two summers (mostly human-caused) is very unpleasant with very unhealthy air. The high particulate content is of course quite visible and obvious when breathing the air outside. Being inside with filters helps. This last summer we had air as unhealthy as the most polluted cities in the world. It presented a serious health risk for people with breathing-related ailments.

 

This was a sunset from one of the bad days.

smokysunset.JPG

 

This one is an early afternoon shot from directly underneath the smoke pall from a relatively small wildfire last year.

sun.JPG

Colours are slightly off, but not by too much.

 

Volcanoes do emit many unpleasant things. One of the byproducts of the recent Kilauea eruptions, besides the more obvious "lava bombs" (which injured some people including tourists on a boat), was volcanic laze - a portmanteau word suggesting lava and haze. It is formed when molten lava meets the ocean and produces a cloud of steam, hydrochloric acid and tiny shards of volcanic glass.  This is very local to the lava/ocean boundary and not a concern once you are a distance some km away.

 

I think the point of the OP is localized effects rather than ejecta distributed in the stratosphere. Nor are we really talking about things like natural versus anthropogenic CO₂.

 

 

I take your point; but if we attempt to rid the lower atmosphere of all particulates, there would be little or no cloud or rainfall. Tiny water droplets in the atmosphere need condensation nuclei to attach themselves to, in order to freeze and coalesce into larger ice crystals. 

[The Stationmaster]

 

I'm curious as to what contemporary wood burning stoves look like in the UK.

 

Here they seem to range from legged barrel shaped things that belong in a turn of the (20th) century caboose to grey metal boxes usually with a window to view the fire. A popular variant here is the "Franklin Stove" named for you know who, who claimed to have invented one.

 

My personal experience of them is:

1. A Victorian-era Queensland Railways issue range (for cooking and water heating) which might well have actually dated to the late 1800s and was situated in the Station Master's residence. Occasionally the railway delivered a wagon load of wood which was then split as needed by the Station Master's strapping lads. It also served as desirable heat in the winter. From first-hand memory this was still in regular use up to the 1980s. Eventually an electric range was also installed. Cooking on a wood range is the sub-tropical summer heat was miserable.
2. A partly glass box in the middle of the floor with a flue leading up out of the roof in a rental chalet in Big Bear (alpine mountains north of LA) which, when we used it, was scorching hot and we had to open the windows. That I was coming down with a case of strep throat that weekend did not help the discomfort.

 

 

Here you go Michael - but this one is 11 years old and styles have changed a bit since then. (you can also see what Mrs Stationmaster is currently watching on the tv and should anybody care to enlarge the picture you are challenged to find the deliberate-ish mistake)

 

[runs as required]

This is your OP speaking to you - wow! Six pages, and still it comes (do I wish I hadn't started it all?)

So can I divert to something more positive that I found a small group of Tekkies and the pocket sized Nukes muttering about in the corner immediately following that original Wylam talk ?:

 

THE STIRLING ENGINE

I remember them being quaint things advertised in mags targetted at boys such as the Meccano Magazine in the 1950s. Gamages offered them (for a modest postal order) as kits that might belt drive a Meccano windmill and the like.

 

I was surprised to hear Stirling Engines are used nowadays to power "silent" undetectable submarines and had great potential for harnessing solar. The other thing I was surprised to hear was that it was the GNR's Patrick Stirling's father Robert (a Kilmarnock Minister) who'd invented it in !816.

 

Comments from the better informed are invited....

      dh

environmental dave

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by runs as required

[alastairq]

I have a Morso woodburner.......and live next door to a tree surgeon.....thus I have a lot of wood, in the process of drying, and ready-use......rarely use the woodburner during the day...mostly as a comfort thing for evenings....

[30801]

 

THE STIRLING ENGINE

I remember them being quaint things advertised in mags targetted at boys such as the Meccano Magazine in the 1950s. Gamages offered them (for a modest postal order) as kits that might belt drive a Meccano windmill and the like.

 

 

I believe you can get stirling powered fans to plonk on top of your wood burner and waft warm air in your direction.

[Nick C]

I think the average forest or heath fire will send far greater quantities of particulates into the air than most wood burning stoves could manage in a lifetime; and heaven only knows what particles are spewed out by volcanic eruptions. 

 

Large volcanic eruptions can significantly alter the entire planet's climate for many years after - If you look at historical graphs of temperature, co2 etc, there's clear spikes that correspond to known major eruptions. The difference of course is that they only last a short time, rather than being constant like our emissions!

 

Forest fires are horrific for both the damage they cause and the amount of emissions, but they too have their place, releasing key nutrients back into the soil - in fact there's several kinds of tree that rely on fire to breed - either to release the seeds in the first place or to cause them to germinate...

 

Rare earth elements aren't actually that rare...

 

The problem with recycling small batteries is that they're small and pretty useless beyond their original application.

If you are pulling the battery out of a car you can pop the cells straight into grid storage and get years more use out of them.

 

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but the key problem with rare earth metals isn't their rarity, it's their availability - we have no known sources of any of them in Europe, they're virtually all in China, and difficult/expensive to extract. Chinese demand is increasing rapidly as their economy grows, and they're getting to the point where they will need all they can get for themselves - at which point they'll simply stop selling to us.

 

We need to massively reduce our need for new raw materials very quickly - either consuming less or recycling what we've already got.

[Edwin_m]

Here you go Michael - but this one is 11 years old and styles have changed a bit since then. (you can also see what Mrs Stationmaster is currently watching on the tv and should anybody care to enlarge the picture you are challenged to find the deliberate-ish mistake)

 

DSCF0638rd.jpg

I have that Liverpool and Manchester picture on my wall too! 

[tomparryharry]

I've just re-cast the constructional hearth in our front room, As time allows, the sweep will do a run-through and survey. The previous owner never cleaned the fire, and allowed the fire to run on the hearth bed. I've dug this out, and relaid the hearth with new. Further investigations show that our previous owner had a chimney fire in the dining room fire, so some extra work there. I guess I can't stress enough that a wood fire is very nice & comfortable, but misuse it at your peril.

 

On a similar note, I did temporarily fall out (sort of ) with a near neighbour. His wood fire was been drawn out, and sucked back down the chimney. As a result, he had the chimney stack taken down, and re-bricked to the correct height, with corrections for internal flue wall failure. the family has 3 little children living there....

[Andy Hayter]

I think there is more than a little confusion.  Well I am confused at least with some of the statements above.

 

Rare Earths - not especially rare - Cerium is more abundant than Copper - but difficult to separate and make pure, like the rest of the rare earths.  Many of them are available in Europe and four were discivered near the village of Ytterby in Sweden.  Come on guys do you not watch Pointless?

 

Lithium - prime material in Lithium ion batteries is not a rare earth element and is found relatively widely.  However commercial resources are found in relatively small number of countries - Bolivia, Australia, Argentina, China and the Czech Republic.  

[30801]

Lithium - prime material in Lithium ion batteries is not a rare earth element and is found relatively widely.  However commercial resources are found in relatively small number of countries - Bolivia, Australia, Argentina, China and the Czech Republic.

I seem to recall some investigation of mining lithium in Cornwall...

[Nick C]

I think there is more than a little confusion.  Well I am confused at least with some of the statements above.

 

Rare Earths - not especially rare - Cerium is more abundant than Copper - but difficult to separate and make pure, like the rest of the rare earths.  Many of them are available in Europe and four were discivered near the village of Ytterby in Sweden.  Come on guys do you not watch Pointless?

 

Lithium - prime material in Lithium ion batteries is not a rare earth element and is found relatively widely.  However commercial resources are found in relatively small number of countries - Bolivia, Australia, Argentina, China and the Czech Republic.  

 

I will admit that I simplified a little by saying "rare earths" - I should have used the term "Critical Raw Materials" - which is defined as those minerals we're reliant on, but have a risky supply of - some of them are rare earths, some aren't. The EU currently list 27 such materials, and state that:

 

 

The EU’s industry and economy are reliant on international markets to provide access to many important raw materials since they are produced and supplied by third countries. Although the domestic production of certain critical raw materials exists in the EU, notably hafnium, in most cases the EU is dependent on imports from non-EU countries.

China is the major supplier of critical raw materials, accounting for 70% of their global supply and 62% of their supply to the EU (e.g. rare earth elements, magnesium, antimony, natural graphite, etc.). Brazil (niobium), USA (beryllium and helium), Russia (palladium) and South Africa (iridium, platinum, rhodium and ruthenium) are also important producers of critical raw materials. The risks associated with the concentration of production are in many cases compounded by low substitution and low recycling rates.

 

http://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/raw-materials/specific-interest/critical_es

[tomparryharry]

I think there is more than a little confusion.  Well I am confused at least with some of the statements above.

 

Rare Earths - not especially rare - Cerium is more abundant than Copper - but difficult to separate and make pure, like the rest of the rare earths.  Many of them are available in Europe and four were discivered near the village of Ytterby in Sweden.  Come on guys do you not watch Pointless?

 

Lithium - prime material in Lithium ion batteries is not a rare earth element and is found relatively widely.  However commercial resources are found in relatively small number of countries - Bolivia, Australia, Argentina, China and the Czech Republic.

We used to cast up some bronze lithium alloys at our old foundry. Blowed if I can remember what they were for.

[brack]

Rare Earths - not especially rare - Cerium is more abundant than Copper - but difficult to separate and make pure, like the rest of the rare earths. Many of them are available in Europe and four were discivered near the village of Ytterby in Sweden.

True, however what is a valid point is that beginning in the 90s/00s the Chinese government expanded their mining of rare earths and sold them at a price lower than north American mines could compete with (cheaper labour, govt assistance, far less stringent environmental controls to pay for), causing a lot of mines in the US and Canada to cease production.

Whilst the elements in question are available elsewhere the processing is complex and it'd take years to bring western capability back online should China decide to pull the plug (which they did a few years ago in a dispute with Japan, Tokyo backed down pretty quickly). At one point China had 97% of the market, current estimates range from 75-90%.

The trouble with things like this is that it gets very difficult to untangle the environmental, economic, military/strategic and political web.

[PhilJ W]

Large volcanic eruptions can significantly alter the entire planet's climate for many years after - If you look at historical graphs of temperature, co2 etc, there's clear spikes that correspond to known major eruptions. The difference of course is that they only last a short time, rather than being constant like our emissions!

 

Forest fires are horrific for both the damage they cause and the amount of emissions, but they too have their place, releasing key nutrients back into the soil - in fact there's several kinds of tree that rely on fire to breed - either to release the seeds in the first place or to cause them to germinate...

 

 

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but the key problem with rare earth metals isn't their rarity, it's their availability - we have no known sources of any of them in Europe, they're virtually all in China, and difficult/expensive to extract. Chinese demand is increasing rapidly as their economy grows, and they're getting to the point where they will need all they can get for themselves - at which point they'll simply stop selling to us.

 

We need to massively reduce our need for new raw materials very quickly - either consuming less or recycling what we've already got.

 

 

I think there is more than a little confusion.  Well I am confused at least with some of the statements above.

 

Rare Earths - not especially rare - Cerium is more abundant than Copper - but difficult to separate and make pure, like the rest of the rare earths.  Many of them are available in Europe and four were discivered near the village of Ytterby in Sweden.  Come on guys do you not watch Pointless?

 

Lithium - prime material in Lithium ion batteries is not a rare earth element and is found relatively widely.  However commercial resources are found in relatively small number of countries - Bolivia, Australia, Argentina, China and the Czech Republic.  

 

 

I seem to recall some investigation of mining lithium in Cornwall...

Lithium can be found in the old Cornish tin mines, the biggest problem is extracting it safely. Its very nasty stuff, get enough on your skin and it could prove fatal. Lead and Mercury are harmless by comparison.

[Andy Hayter]

Lithium (as a salt) is an essential part of the human diet and is regularly used as a treatment for some mental problems.  Lead and Mercury salts and Mercury as a metal are extremely toxic.  

 

Lithium Metal is however quite nasty and would give a nasty burn as it reacts with the moisture on your skin.  I rather doubt it would be lethal however.

[russ p]

I think I ought to stop looking at this thread because of my guilt - I drive a diesel car and we have a woodburning stove.  Just as well I quit smoking 20 years ago or I'd be getting the blame for killing people through 'passive smoking' as well.  Maybe I should take up drug dealing because that seems to be far more socially acceptable nowadays (except on 'The Archers')?

 

Don't worry too much about it Mike, maybe you should have an asbestos blowing Nativity scene to put outside your house this Christmas!

[The Stationmaster]

Don't worry too much about it Mike, maybe you should have an asbestos blowing Nativity scene to put outside your house this Christmas!

 

 

Hmm, there's an idea as I'm told 'we aren't doing halloween this year' and will keep everything dark. There'll probably be letters to the local 'paper expressing concern about our health as our halloween grotto (the front porch) is normally very popular.

[rockershovel]

Lithium can be found in the old Cornish tin mines, the biggest problem is extracting it safely. Its very nasty stuff, get enough on your skin and it could prove fatal. Lead and Mercury are harmless by comparison.

If it were feasible to extract the stuff from the mine water, which appears to be the plan, at any useful cost I’m certain that someone would be doing it already.

 

Cornish mining has a long history of bright ideas leaking out and scampering about, they need to be rounded up and shot from time to time, before they can do any real harm.

[Junctionmad]

I think the average forest or heath fire will send far greater quantities of particulates into the air than most wood burning stoves could manage in a lifetime; and heaven only knows what particles are spewed out by volcanic eruptions. 

 

unless you live most of you life on top of a forest fire or beside an active volcano , the issue is that you and I do live for long periods in areas of wood burning fires emitting PM2.5 

 

having said that , I heat my house all through the winter from a wood burning stove !!!

[62613]

unless you live most of you life on top of a forest fire or beside an active volcano , the issue is that you and I do live for long periods in areas of wood burning fires emitting PM2.5 

 

having said that , I heat my house all through the winter from a wood burning stove !!!

The effects of a volcanic eruption can go worldwide. I can't remember which one it was, in the Far east IIRC, but there was one in 1817 which is held to be responsible for the poor harvest in Europe (due to the sun being blocked by the volcanic ash, etc.)

[30801]

The effects of a volcanic eruption can go worldwide. I can't remember which one it was, in the Far east IIRC, but there was one in 1817 which is held to be responsible for the poor harvest in Europe (due to the sun being blocked by the volcanic ash, etc.)

And I believe some very pretty orange skies in paintings of the time.

[billbedford]

The effects of a volcanic eruption can go worldwide. I can't remember which one it was, in the Far east IIRC, but there was one in 1817 which is held to be responsible for the poor harvest in Europe (due to the sun being blocked by the volcanic ash, etc.)

 

 

Tambora, 1815. 1816 was known as the year without summer in both Europe and New England. 

[62613]

Tambora, 1815. 1816 was known as the year without summer in both Europe and New England. 

That's the one!

[AndyID]

More recently not far from here

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_1910