SRman Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 There's a story elsewhere that Chris Chibnall and JW are possibly going to leave due to disagreeing with the BBC management policies. Could the moralising and preaching be something dictated from higher up, rather than coming from Chibnall himself? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 There's a story elsewhere that Chris Chibnall and JW are possibly going to leave due to disagreeing with the BBC management policies. Could the moralising and preaching be something dictated from higher up, rather than coming from Chibnall himself? It's a consistent thing across a lot of BBC shows at the moment, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's being dictated from above. I don't think the media luvvies have taken well to recent political events. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) It's a consistent thing across a lot of BBC shows at the moment, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's being dictated from above. I don't think the media luvvies have taken well to recent political events. Pete It's too easy to dismiss entire professions with quick jibes. I spenf most of my career in TV production with the BBC and I don't think anyone would describe me as a "media luvvie". I also saw very little evidence of luvviedom amongst my colleagues who were, with a few exceptions, level headed, conscientious, very hard working and above all very independently minded, The range of political views held by them also reflected the mainstream spectrum. If you look back over the whole history of Dr Who you'll see that tackling moral issues has always been a theme. There was even more of that in StarTrek and it's been a feature of Science Fiction writing since Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein. Edited January 8, 2019 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 If you look back over the whole history of Dr Who you'll see that tackling moral issues has always been a theme. There was even more of that in StarTrek and it's been a feature of Science Fiction writing since Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein. Yes, but it was done with a degree of subtlety and sophistication so that it that didn't seem patronising to the audience, in the time honoured tradition of using Science Fiction set in the future as an allegory for the present. Take the very first Dalek story as an example, which tackles pacifism (it's great not killing people, until they decide to kill you) or the way 'Remembrance of the Daleks' flagged up causal 1960s racism (the nice people who run the boarding house have a 'No coloureds' sign, which is a subtle reminder that some people in the UK used to do things like that and probably still would given the chance) or the bit in 'The empty child' where one of the characters is able to blackmail another by threatening to expose them as gay (another subtle reminder of the not so distant past). In the last few years it's shifted so that these things feel like lectures delivered through a megaphone, rather than subtle nudges and reminders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) The big New Year mystery for me wasn't Dalek technology, it was the police car speedometer! Edited January 8, 2019 by Tony_S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big James Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) I read a recent interview with Neil Gaiman who said that during his run Toby whitehouse wrote a script. Moffat, the crew and the current doctor was all impressed with the script calling it the standout script of the season. Then when it come to the table reading for the script a few week later it was like reading a totally different script. So I honestly believe it was the BBC who rewrote it to conform to their ideals. Season 11 is going through what I call the top gear effect. The main cast and show runner leave the ones who made it what it was, you then get a new show runner in who has their own ideas and completely abandons what made it great while listening to the BBC who want it to follow their ideals, the audience will tune in for the first episode out of curiosity realising it’s not what they love abandon the show in droves, the people who made the new show is then forced to resign citing their own choices while the BBC scramble to make the show relevant again. Big James Edited January 8, 2019 by Big James 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2019 I found the problem with the last series (or those episodes I watched) was the mix of preaching with the subtlety of a sledge hammer along with mediocre stories. I could probably live with all the right-on-o-sphere peachy stuff if the stories were good but when the stories are rubbish it becomes the proverbial straw that breaks the camels back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew F Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I found the problem with the last series (or those episodes I watched) was the mix of preaching with the subtlety of a sledge hammer along with mediocre stories. I could probably live with all the right-on-o-sphere peachy stuff if the stories were good but when the stories are rubbish it becomes the proverbial straw that breaks the camels back. That's something I've noticed. Whenever there'e a PC agenda to entertainment, it's at the detriment to everything else; the plot, the script, any wit, humour or subtleties and the actors can't seem to get into character. It's as though PC just sucks the soul out of everything else and can't co-exist with anything that's entertaining. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2019 Perhaps someone could help me. What exactly is this preaching and PC content that some claim is ruining entertainment? PC means so many different things.To me it means not being rude or defamatory to other human beings. So what is being objected to? I first watched Doctor Who before the Daleks even appeared so I have got used to different Doctors! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big James Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Perhaps someone could help me. What exactly is this preaching and PC content that some claim is ruining entertainment? PC means so many different things.To me it means not being rude or defamatory to other human beings. So what is being objected to? I first watched Doctor Who before the Daleks even appeared so I have got used to different Doctors! It’s because they was mainly concerned with meeting hiring quotas then actually telling a good story. All the writer other then Chibnall and the women who wrote Rosa has no experience with the genre they was hired to meet the BBC racial hiring quota. Big James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted January 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2019 Perhaps someone could help me. What exactly is this preaching and PC content that some claim is ruining entertainment? PC means so many different things.To me it means not being rude or defamatory to other human beings. So what is being objected to? I first watched Doctor Who before the Daleks even appeared so I have got used to different Doctors! Where the story made a point VERY obviously for PC reasons rather than entertainment reasons. Messages need to be very subtile so they sneak in, not smashed in with a sledgehammer. Some of the writing on this last series was dreadful, and I still find the idea of a far future racist against other humans totally ridiculous, far future it would be racist against aliens or robots or something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2019 Where the story made a point VERY obviously for PC reasons rather than entertainment reasons. Messages need to be very subtile so they sneak in, not smashed in with a sledgehammer. Some of the writing on this last series was dreadful, and I still find the idea of a far future racist against other humans totally ridiculous, far future it would be racist against aliens or robots or something. But what are these PC reasons you speak of? We have robots now and still have people who consider themselves superior to other humans. It would be nice to think that such behaviour would cease to exist over time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2019 I hope everyone liked the return of at least one Dalek.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2019 But what are these PC reasons you speak of? We have robots now and still have people who consider themselves superior to other humans. It would be nice to think that such behaviour would cease to exist over time. Are they telling a story to ram a message home or shaping a story around an issue? Such behaviour to other humans is very significantly on the decrease (certainly in the UK, i.e. where Dr Who is made), which makes it even more annoying when people just lecture. Whether the cause is just isn't really the point. The PC label gets applied to overly sermonising, overly black and white (no irony intended ) approaches at looking at issues, particularly when it goes hand in hand with instantly leaping on anyone who doesn't immediately accept that simplified, sermonised message as the complete truth. It doesn't necessary imply that the issue in question isn't really one (although it might question the proportionality). IMO it also enhances division by its constant emphasising of differences, e.g. always reminding people of different skin colours, which makes it rather hard to view them as any more different than different hair colours. I'm assuming the robots in question are more C3P0 than car building machines. Either that or it's about the police, or computers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Some of the writing on this last series was dreadful, and I still find the idea of a far future racist against other humans totally ridiculous, far future it would be racist against aliens or robots or something. The problem I have with the Rosa Parks story is that it was based on the logic that everyone on the planet was a racist, then one day Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus, and after that everyone stopped being racist. So stop that one event, and we all stay racist forever. This falls into the trap of massively simplifying history, and turning it in a to a series of simple events and potted hagiographies of 'extraordinary people'. The US civil rights movement was well underway by the 1950s - so if anything presenting it as starting it with one event in the mid-1950s hides the fact that it took the US Government so long to respond (having essentially made a mess of the post-Civil war reconstruction). As you say, bad writing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Just for a counterpoint, my Kids are loving S11. My 13-year old has seen a range of both classic and new Whos and rates the new Stories as being among his favourites. He doesn't bat an eyelid at PC messages because his generation just take such things for granted. I don't know the exact demographic of viewers for the new season or posters on this topic but I would feel safe hazarding a guess there is a mismatch. Dr Who has always been a kids show at heart, in spite of the cult following it has developed. We may just have to accept that we are not the target audience anymore. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2019 … IMO it also enhances division by its constant emphasising of differences, e.g. always reminding people of different skin colours, which makes it rather hard to view them as any more different than different hair colours.... So it would be OK if Black and Asian people on television were only seen in some perceived stereotypical role? if someone is Black or Asian round where I live they will be reminded about different skin colour every time they go out as it is one of the least multicultural places in England. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) So it would be OK if Black and Asian people on television were only seen in some perceived stereotypical role? if someone is Black or Asian round where I live they will be reminded about different skin colour every time they go out as it is one of the least multicultural places in England. I don't see how that follows on from what I said at all. There was nothing in my post to suggest "if Black and Asian people on television were only seen in some perceived stereotypical role". If a TV series was set where you live and featured prominent black or Asian characters it sounds like it wouldn't be a terribly convincing depiction of the location, so would rightly suspicions about why they're in that series. It might simply be because the ordinary day-to-day things provide fewer story opportunities, and in a different atmosphere it would probably be accepted as that. What is the motivation of the writers, the environment that they're writing in? In a different atmosphere, in a different setting, most people simply wouldn't notice or care. Take Red Dwarf for example - the bit people are most likely to notice and remember about Lister is his slobbiness, they're more likely to say he's Scouse than black, and similar with the Cat, and that's half the main cast in the first series, and that was made in the 80s. Anything else simply wasn't relevant or drawn attention to. I don't know behind the scenes info but I'd be surprised if it played any part in their casting either, whereas unfortunately nowdays there would always be that suspicion that it's deliberate to be "inclusive." You're emphasising differences if you're trying to shout out "look at this!", particularly when it's in situations where people were more likely to say "Oh, hadn't noticed that." If you're working to make people notice skin colour more than hair colour you're doing everyone a disservice. Or since this is a model railway forum, if a model is of a 1930s GWR branch line there would be nothing worth saying about every figure being white. There would be if it was a model of a current day London terminus. But not if it's a modern day rural station so you might expect PC considerations coming in to play if you saw some non-white figures there (it would depend exactly where the model is supposed to be of course). Edited January 9, 2019 by Reorte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I don't know behind the scenes info but I'd be surprised if it played any part in their casting either, whereas unfortunately nowdays there would always be that suspicion that it's deliberate to be "inclusive." But that suspicion is in the mind of the viewer, not necessarily in the policy of the BBC. It saddens me somewhat that after many years of positive strides towards diversity and inclusivity in society, the push-back from certain groups has led to people blaming such policies for anything they don't like about topic X. I also don't agree that things were handled more subtley in past seasons either. Captain Jack was there from Season 1 and was about as subtle as a sledge-hammmer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Even my wife, nearly prepared to swallow everything Dr Who, called it a day on the Crimble edition over the foolish depiction of the UK military. As she put it, if those writing do not know that the moment the shooting starts the last thing on view is an infantryman, it simply undermines the credibility of the whole piece. It's too easy to dismiss entire professions with quick jibes... Some like myself would say it is not a jibe when it is manifestly true. And we have to pay for it, like it or not, so a dismissive attitude toward this cancerous organism has some justification? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2019 I’m still wondering about that police car speedometer.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big James Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Take the depiction of Sheffield in the latest series. It’s a lot more multicultural then it is in real life. They couldn’t resist a trump joke and it’s alienated the American fan base by its constantly belittling of America. Big James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 So it would be OK if Black and Asian people on television were only seen in some perceived stereotypical role?. By what convoluted reasoning(?) can you possibly derive that interpretation from the posting to which you responded? The poster didn't write anything remotely resembling that; you simply demonstrate that you do not read what people post; you respond to what you wish they had posted, in order to justify your rant in reply. I'm afraid that you are typical of what the 'PC brigade' - putting words into people's mouths in order to justify the 'Racist!' accusations that are so prevelent these days. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2019 In a different atmosphere, in a different setting, most people simply wouldn't notice or care. Take Red Dwarf for example - the bit people are most likely to notice and remember about Lister is his slobbiness, they're more likely to say he's Scouse than black, and similar with the Cat, and that's half the main cast in the first series, and that was made in the 80s. Anything else simply wasn't relevant or drawn attention to. I don't know behind the scenes info but I'd be surprised if it played any part in their casting either, whereas unfortunately nowdays there would always be that suspicion that it's deliberate to be "inclusive." You're emphasising differences if you're trying to shout out "look at this!", particularly when it's in situations where people were more likely to say "Oh, hadn't noticed that." If you're working to make people notice skin colour more than hair colour you're doing everyone a disservice. I am a huge fan but it never even occured to me, Lister was just a messy slob from Liverpool. Rimmer a useless but knocked down person who is basically sad. Cat, a self obsessed cat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted January 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2019 But that suspicion is in the mind of the viewer, not necessarily in the policy of the BBC. It saddens me somewhat that after many years of positive strides towards diversity and inclusivity in society, the push-back from certain groups has led to people blaming such policies for anything they don't like about topic X. I also don't agree that things were handled more subtley in past seasons either. Captain Jack was there from Season 1 and was about as subtle as a sledge-hammmer. Captain Jack was a comedy character, deliberately OTT. RTD did push the sex angle harder than SM though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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