Q&A - The Wishlist Poll 2018

[Steamport Southport]

I thought that was just the rust....

 

 

 

 

Jason

[daltonparva]

Of course I would, Barry locos were painted red!

Brian

But would you want it to say LMS on it, like the best loco you've got does?

[Ruston]

Why is there no section for industrial locomotives at all? A few years ago I could have understood it as industrials were a niche thing and unsupported by RTR manufacturers but there are now 5 different industrial locomotives in OO (3 diesel and 2 steam) available from 3 manufacturers, so why does the poll completely ignore them and not give people the opportunity to vote for new models of industrial locomotives?

[Steamport Southport]

Why is there no section for industrial locomotives at all? A few years ago I could have understood it as industrials were a niche thing and unsupported by RTR manufacturers but there are now 5 different industrial locomotives in OO (3 diesel and 2 steam) available from 3 manufacturers, so why does the poll completely ignore them and not give people the opportunity to vote for new models of industrial locomotives?

 

There is.

 

A bit generic rather than individual classes/builders, but it has such titles as 0-6-0ST Outside Cylinder and Crane Tank.

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

In the results, do you publish a trend or comparison to see if a loco trends higher or lower over time ?

 

For example some locos might score higher when they emerge from overhaul, have been repainted or gone “national” but then interest may wane when they are out of the limelight a few years later without having appeared in model form, where as I presume others may just score highly(or lower) infinitely ?

 

Reading the first post that you do this voluntarily, i’m happy to give some analytic time if that is of help.

[BMacdermott]

Why is there no section for industrial locomotives at all? A few years ago I could have understood it as industrials were a niche thing and unsupported by RTR manufacturers but there are now 5 different industrial locomotives in OO (3 diesel and 2 steam) available from 3 manufacturers, so why does the poll completely ignore them and not give people the opportunity to vote for new models of industrial locomotives?

Hello Ruston

 

As noted in post #54, there is an Industrial section. 

 

When we first looked at the subject, we tried to list items in the same way that we do in the other categories but soon found it impossible.

 

Below is the relevant extract from The Guide:

 

We have only listed ‘general types’ to see if any one or more emerges as more popular. This would enable further evaluation elsewhere. We haven’t provided any notes or links as the subject is a vast one!

Unlike other categories, we do not delete models that get announced. This is because of the ‘generic listing style’ and gives people a chance to vote for other makers’ locos. For example, Golden Valley Hobbies announced its 0-6-0 diesel loco at Warley 2015, but you will still find the 0-6-0 Diesel or Petrol listed and Hattons announced its Andrew Barclay in 2018.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[BMacdermott]

In the results, do you publish a trend or comparison to see if a loco trends higher or lower over time ?

 

For example some locos might score higher when they emerge from overhaul, have been repainted or gone “national” but then interest may wane when they are out of the limelight a few years later without having appeared in model form, where as I presume others may just score highly(or lower) infinitely ?

 

Reading the first post that you do this voluntarily, i’m happy to give some analytic time if that is of help.

 

Hello adb968008

 

We do indeed keep  'Comparison Charts' and have posted them on relevant Poll threads in the past. The Poll Team itself doesn't comment - we leave pollsters to form their own views from the data.

 

One Chart covers The Top 50 and then we have one for each of the 20 categories. They show the comparative positions over five Polls (we didn't run in 2017). They have the same 'coding' as the main Results (ie bold is Top 50 items etc. The key is explained on each Chart).

 

Hang fire until the 2018 Results are published and then ask me again which Charts you would like to see. They will be available a few days after the main Results.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[88C]

But would you want it to say LMS on it, like the best loco you've got does?

Glad you agree that Castles are the best locos.

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

A note for Welsh loco voters...

 

When we were reviewing the Poll content earlier this year, GWR category 'owner', John Lewis, and I went through a long list of non-GWR types and settled on what you see this year.

 

We left out the following companies:

Llanelly & Mynydd Mawr

Whitland & Cardigan Bay

Weston Cleveland & Portishead Railway

Cleobury Mortimer & Ditton Priors Light Railway

Brecon & Merthyr Railway + Neath & Brecon Railway (although we do reference them within the Rymney Railway R Class)

 

You are welcome to suggest additions.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[BMacdermott]

 

PS All very easy to use thanks Team (and AY again?) and as I wasn't interested in a number of categories it was pretty quick although I'd had a previous read through of course.

 

Hello Mike

 

Andy York does indeed deserve praise for his efforts on once again constructing 'the computerised aspects' of The Poll. Andy is not technically a Poll Team member per se, but we wouldn't be able to run without him. We set a schedule well in advance - he already has that for 2019 - and we stick close to it. He provides The Team with a 'dummy run' well before we go live (and that is part of the schedule).

 

He undertakes the work voluntarily, in his own time, from our supplied data. The Poll is not 'influenced' by him (or BRM or Warners for that matter).

 

And for anyone who has not yet voted...please note what Mike said above. Taking part is pretty easy but you will 'feel the benefit' if you take a little time to look at The Guide in the first instance.

 

Whenever a Poll finishes, we will always have someone write in and say: I couldn't find Loco X. We do our utmost to list in a logical order, but sometimes that isn't practical. A look through The Guide will preclude you missing out.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[farren]

Just curious about the results, I've hard that the producers such as Hornby take notice of results do they officially come to you for a copy?

 

Great work by the poll team again.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Farren

 

We send the three sets of Results to many makers, including Hornby. They are:

Most wanted 

By category

Top to Bottom

 

As noted in the Q&A, The Poll Team never claims that models are made specifically because of the results, but we do know 'from the horses mouth' that at least some take them into consideration along with their other market research sources.

 

If you have a look towards the bottom of my post #1 above, you will see what we say about that matter.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[daltonparva]

Glad you agree that Castles are the best locos.

Brian

You misunderconstumble sir. It would be the best loco on your gwr layout 'cos it's says LMS on it. It is the worst loco on your LMS layout 'cos it's a castle. LMS rules. gwr sucks.

[Ruston]

Hello Ruston

 

As noted in post #54, there is an Industrial section. 

 

When we first looked at the subject, we tried to list items in the same way that we do in the other categories but soon found it impossible.

 

Below is the relevant extract from The Guide:

 

We have only listed ‘general types’ to see if any one or more emerges as more popular. This would enable further evaluation elsewhere. We haven’t provided any notes or links as the subject is a vast one!

Unlike other categories, we do not delete models that get announced. This is because of the ‘generic listing style’ and gives people a chance to vote for other makers’ locos. For example, Golden Valley Hobbies announced its 0-6-0 diesel loco at Warley 2015, but you will still find the 0-6-0 Diesel or Petrol listed and Hattons announced its Andrew Barclay in 2018.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

Thanks, Brian

 

I have found the relevant section now. I expected it in with the other locomotives and after getting through all the constituent companies and BR, and on to coaches, I figured that there wasn't an industrial loco section but it's there, tagged on near the end.

 

It is a vast subject but I think your generalisation is too general, especially when the poll is ful of very specific items, down to the diagram numbers on coaches and the years of use or build on some things.. For instance "Industrial 0-4-0 Diesel or Petrol". You can't just vote for "diesel or petrol". The reason being that petrol locomotives had a much shorter lifespan of production and fell out of use relatively quickly. So people voting for diesel are likely to be a very different group to those who would vote for petrol. Petrol being generally between the wars, so useful to people who model the grouping and early BR. Generally speaking, diesel wasn't much in use until WW2. So people voting for a diesel 0-4-0 are going to be those modelling the period WW2 onwards. It's like asking people just to vote for a 4-6-0 when they don't know if they're being asked if they want something from the SR or the LMS.

 

"Industrial 0-4-0T Vertical boiler". That could be a Sentinel of any model but generally a boxed-in thing. Or it could be Chaplin - an ancient thing with the boiler and engine exposed - the same layout of boiler but very different periods and very different in appearance. It's like asking people to vote for a Bo-Bo but not telling them if they're voting for an overhead electric or diesel ,or someting pre-grouping or modern day.

 

 

I really don't see why specific manufacturers and types cannot be listed, even if you're not going to list specific types. An 0-4-0ST by Andrew Barclay has its own look, as does one by Manning Wardle, and so-on. They aren't all just the same, just as a Great Western 0-6-0 doesn't have the same look as one from the North Eastern.

 

Obviously it's too late to do anything about it now but, perhaps, you can bear this in mind next time?

Edited October 19, 2018 by Ruston

[BMacdermott]

Hello Ruston

 

When we first started looking at the Industrial subject, we went into some detail...then greater detail...then greater detail....then even greater detail!

 

It wasn't possible to sort it out into anything coherent - so we took the generic route. 

 

Can I suggest you have a look at the subject yourself? If you can present The Team with a coherent list that satisfies the majority, we will certainly give it a fair hearing. As for revisiting it ourselves, I'm sorry to say we won't because we evaluated and discounted it fully.

 

However, I do take the point - and thanks for raising it - that we could look at splitting up petrol and diesel types.

 

Although the 0-4-0ST and 0-6-0ST with outside cylinders have been announced, they have remained in The Top 50 which perhaps indicates an appetite for more. The petrol/diesel, however, has moved steadily downward, so it will be interesting to see where it fits this year.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[BMacdermott]

In the results, do you publish a trend or comparison to see if a loco trends higher or lower over time ?

 

For example some locos might score higher when they emerge from overhaul, have been repainted or gone “national” but then interest may wane when they are out of the limelight a few years later without having appeared in model form, where as I presume others may just score highly(or lower) infinitely ?

 

Reading the first post that you do this voluntarily, i’m happy to give some analytic time if that is of help.

 

Hello again adb968008

 

I have had a look through the current Comparison Charts. Given that items are taken out and new items entered each year, the results of all the categories show a remarkable consistency (broadly speaking).

 

Items that are in 'high' tend to stay in 'high'; 'middles' stay 'middle'; 'lows' stay 'low'.

 

There are one or two exceptions here and there; for example, one item went from 'high of the low' up to 'low of the high'. 

 

The Charts will make more sense than me when you see them! In many cases, you can draw almost straight lines across an item from year to year. If you like stats, you'll enjoy looking at them.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[BMacdermott]

Hello again Ruston

 

I started to investigate whether there might be a better way of listing Industrials. By chance, my Google search landed on your thread from 2013. I have appended a relevant clipping below. It sums up the problem of numerous types often in penny numbers.

 

The 0-4-0ST with outside cylinders has been High Polling since 2014.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

 

Posted 08 March 2013 - 22:02

34theletterbetweenB&D, on 08 Mar 2013 - 22:19, said:

what were the most numerous of these small types to see service in the BR period; and thus most likely to enjoy the widest UK distribution, and hopefully thereby the broadest appeal? I have asked this question on this site before, but no one seems to know; or at least be willing to divulge....

Ruston replied:

 

I don't think that there's a clear answer. There were so many different types in use over the BR period that it's impossible to know which particular type was more numerous and had the widest dsitribution.

 

Probably not a Manning Wardle! 

 

The thing with industrial locos is that they were often chosen to suit the job and some were even created for one individual customer to suit their particular needs but for smaller concerns, before diesels took over, or the traffic went over to road haulage, the 0-4-0ST appears to have been the most numerous. Probably with cylinders of 14inch or smaller.

Edited October 20, 2018 by BMacdermott

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

Below is a straight repeat of my post #11 - but it's worth reminding you. Also, please check The Guide before voting - it will help you to put things in context. Every year we get people writing in saying "I couldn't find X" - a read of The Guide notes will probably prevent that.

 

Note to anyone considering suggestions for 2019

 

As noted in my post #8 above, we would welcome suggestions - but it would help us greatly if you would put them in Guide format, please:

 

Clear heading

About 100-200 words of text (just outline bullet points are fine - we'll sort out the editorial side)

One or two links (this really helps to ensure we are all on same hymn sheet)

 

Can I suggest they come to me as a PM or to The Poll Team email address? This will prevent this thread getting bogged down in 2019 detail.

 

Thanks

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Ruston]

 

Hello again Ruston

 

I started to investigate whether there might be a better way of listing Industrials. By chance, my Google search landed on your thread from 2013. I have appended a relevant clipping below. It sums up the problem of numerous types often in penny numbers.

 

The 0-4-0ST with outside cylinders has been High Polling since 2014.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

 

Posted 08 March 2013 - 22:02

34theletterbetweenB&D, on 08 Mar 2013 - 22:19, said:

Ruston replied:

 

I don't think that there's a clear answer. There were so many different types in use over the BR period that it's impossible to know which particular type was more numerous and had the widest dsitribution.

 

Probably not a Manning Wardle! 

 

The thing with industrial locos is that they were often chosen to suit the job and some were even created for one individual customer to suit their particular needs but for smaller concerns, before diesels took over, or the traffic went over to road haulage, the 0-4-0ST appears to have been the most numerous. Probably with cylinders of 14inch or smaller.

 

Hello Brian,

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.- "the problem of numersous types often in penny packet numbers". How is the number of any given type relevant when in the poll you already have types that weren't built into double figures and some that were single locomotives?

 

I also don't understand the relevance of a question about which was the most numerous industrial type in use during the BR period. Industrial locomotives were aroung long before anyone even thought of nationalising the railways and there are a lot of people who don't model the BR period.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Ruston

 

The 2013 posting - as noted, stumbled upon in my attempts to seek a better way of listing - seemed to sum up exactly the problems my sub-team and I encountered when we reacted to voter suggestions to list Industrials. We were working with an official of the IRS, but it all became so complex that we found the only way out was to list generically.

 

My comment about penny numbers was partly referring to a list of Industrial locos that I had seen that ran into dozens of pages.

 

Agreed, we sometimes list singleton or small classes - such as Big Bertha, the Turbomotive, the A1/1, Hush Hush, USATC S160, GT3, 18000, 18100, 10100 and several others - but there is always good reason. The question of penny numbers has to be balanced with the relevance to the voter.

 

I see that you edited out the question from 34theletterbetweenB&D dated 22.19 on 8 March 2013. It was his question - not mine -  and I left it in for context.

 

As noted, if you can provide us with a coherent, well-founded list (of not more than 70 items) we will give it a fair hearing. We will be delighted if you can prove us wrong as no-one that we can see has yet managed to do it. I have already 'split' the petrol and diesel types as recommended.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Compound2632]

The inclusion of "generic" pre-Grouping rolling stock categories is welcome - I've voted for those of interest to me, of course. I'm curious to understand the reasoning behind specifying the Bain 48ft arc-roof carriages as the sole Midland carriages? the 8'6" wide, 10ft wheelbase bogie diagrams of these are of course available as more-or-less entry level plastic kits from Ratio (one was the very first rolling stock kit I attempted, at the age of 13.) These were specific to the Manchester and Birmingham areas; the later 9ft-wide versions were a bit more widespread throughout the East Midlands. In any case, I'd have thought some Bain 54ft clerestory carriages would be more generally useful as in Grouping days they could be found throughout the LMS system; even into the 50s in Scotland, I believe.

 

An oddity is the inclusion of M&GN carriages: the Joint's stock was composed of hand-me-downs from the Midland (6-wheelers mostly) and Great Northern (6-wheelers again); in LMS days some ex-LNWR 50ft arc-roof corridor carriages were transferred. The Great Northern 6-wheelers appear elsewhere in the poll, of course, while the LNWR carriages are also Ratio kits.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Compound2632

 

Thanks for writing.

 

The Team has been trying hard over the years to gradually answer the call to list more Pre-group items. The MR Bains went in during 2014 - probably as a result of suggestions from an earlier year. Since then - to the best of my knowledge and having checked back through previous Agendas - not a single other MR type has been suggested.

 

In 2013, the LMS Coaches category comprised 18 items - all LMS. The 2018 list comprises 28 items - 19 LMS plus nine Pre-group.

 

Naturally, now that you have rightly raised the subject, we will give it due consideration. Do you have any suggestions such as the 54ft clerestories? If so - as noted a couple of times above - we would be grateful for them in Guide format:

A clear title (heading)

A few lines of text

A couple of links

 

As for the MGNR stock, the same applies that we were trying to have representatives of each Pre-group company in all of the categories. That stock was listed 'new' this year, so it will be interesting to see where it sits. I was tackled on this subject of 'vagueness' on another forum, but - as I said there - there are hundreds of types that we could list individually but then taking part would become overly complex.

 

The ECJS and WCJS is similarly a minefield of styles and types, but if the subject is proven to be popular, then perhaps another group could evaluate further?

 

There is no easy way to please all of the people all of the time, I'm sorry to say. And with a potential 30,000+ items we are bound to have to 'compress' in some areas.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Zomboid]

I voted for things that would make me seriously consider building a layout in OO. Which mostly means the first generation 30x AC EMUs.

[Ruston]

Hello Ruston

 

The 2013 posting - as noted, stumbled upon in my attempts to seek a better way of listing - seemed to sum up exactly the problems my sub-team and I encountered when we reacted to voter suggestions to list Industrials. We were working with an official of the IRS, but it all became so complex that we found the only way out was to list generically.

 

My comment about penny numbers was partly referring to a list of Industrial locos that I had seen that ran into dozens of pages.

 

Agreed, we sometimes list singleton or small classes - such as Big Bertha, the Turbomotive, the A1/1, Hush Hush, USATC S160, GT3, 18000, 18100, 10100 and several others - but there is always good reason. The question of penny numbers has to be balanced with the relevance to the voter.

 

I see that you edited out the question from 34theletterbetweenB&D dated 22.19 on 8 March 2013. It was his question - not mine -  and I left it in for context.

 

As noted, if you can provide us with a coherent, well-founded list (of not more than 70 items) we will give it a fair hearing. We will be delighted if you can prove us wrong as no-one that we can see has yet managed to do it. I have already 'split' the petrol and diesel types as recommended.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

 

Hello Brian. I didn't edit anything out. I assume it's something to do with the forum software that means quotes within quotes don't show up.

 

I don't think that I, or anyone else, can put together a list until we know exactly what your criteria are for including something specific in the poll.

 

 

Agreed, we sometimes list singleton or small classes - such as Big Bertha, the Turbomotive, the A1/1, Hush Hush, USATC S160, GT3, 18000, 18100, 10100 and several others - but there is always good reason. The question of penny numbers has to be balanced with the relevance to the voter.

 

 

 

 

 What are the reasons to add something that is a one-off, with a short lifespan and a small geographic area of use? What do you mean by relevance to the voter?

 

Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree completely and this poll isn't aimed at "serious" modellers but is more for collectors and anyone who just wants to run something odd and different around their trainset. I can see then why no one would really care about what prototype any industrial that may be produced as a model might be because to them one industrial is as good as another.

 

Unless I know what the criteria for inclusion are, and if it's worth my while at all,  I'm not going to spend my time attempting to put together up to 70 locomotive types when you guys have already looked at and rejected the idea of listing them anyway.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Ruston

[BMacdermott]

Hello Ruston

 

My apologies for the misunderstanding of the editing; something I haven't seen happen before but will watch for in the future.

 

The purpose of The Poll is stated at the head of this thread and within The Poll itself, but I have repeated it below for ease of access. It is clearly aimed at modellers and collectors. We know from emails received that that covers beginners to experts. The suggestions we get can range from "Please list more coaches" to "Why aren't you listing wagon (x) with buffers (y) and wheels (z)?".

 

We have often reported on our threads that we don't have hard and fast criteria for what goes in or stays out. We did try to lay ground rules in our early days but soon found they caused more problems than they solved. With a potential of 30,000+ items we have to draw a line somewhere - and that is no more scientific than 'horses for courses' (added to our year 2000 cut-off and that is under review on the Agenda before anyone asks!).

 

None of The Poll Team comes under the heading of 'expert' in relation to Industrials, so we look to good people such as yourself for help and inspiration. We tried with the IRS, but settled on 'generic' for the reasons given. No-one has subsequently come up with anything better.

 

We did look at a list where each maker was listed alphabetically and each of its loco types by wheel arrangement listed below. That is a starting point; but how does one evaluate - for example - all the different Pecketts? How many makers are there? 

 

It would be foolish of The Team to give you a 'blanket guarantee' that anything you provided would go in - but we hoped we had made it clear that we would be delighted to receive your list and that it would be given a fair hearing. We really do want to improve it! 

 

For the time being, why not have a look at a list such as above but just (say) Andrew Barclay, Kitson and Peckett (off the top of my head)? If that looks viable to you, then PM or email to us and we will get back within a few days.

 

Our experience with such matters encompasses:

1. An idea starts out with all good intent but the devil in the detail often has a detrimental impact;

2. Conferring with other 'experts' to achieve a consensus always has a better result than someone working alone. Your ideas 'need to be challenged' by at least one or two fellow experts.

 

I wish I could give you an easier answer!

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

 

What is the purpose of The Poll?

To provide an easy and enjoyable way for modellers and collectors to indicate to the major manufacturers and commissioners of ready-to-run 00 railway models what they would like to see made from all new tooling (excluding models announced, tooled or made since 2000).

Edited October 22, 2018 by BMacdermott