A New Hope - Great Model Railway Challenge benefits

[Pacific231G]

I don't think the issue is price so much as completeness. I reckon there needs to be the ability to buy the whole thing in one package - trains, track, baseboard, scenery, buildings, electrics etc.  Take it home; take it out of the box; minimal assembly; call friends and family in to admire its looks and the way it works. Something that can be presented as piece of art, as well as a working model.

 

Maybe the baseboard is just a plastic moulding, or extruded or expanded polystyrene. And, for obvious reasons it will be a lot smaller than 8x4. Maybe a shunting plank that can fit on a shelf. Or a 4x4 (2 off 2x4 for ease of carrying) that can sit on a table.

 

Maybe the boards could be designed so you could buy another one and join it on. That concept is well established among some groups of modellers. Why not commercialise it?

 

...R

Somethihg like this perhaps for 330€

 

https://trains.lrpresse.com/A-17487-train-in-box.aspx

 

Though I'm not sure how successful it's actually been in its first two years or so.

 

 

The possible catch with any layout in a box or preformed baseboard and trackbed is that you get to build what someone else thinks is great rather than what you might want which is almiost invariable some kind of tail chaser. (Inglenook sidings in a box might work though). The other downside is that simply assembling something just doesnt give the same satisfaction as building it yourself having solved a few problems along the way.. I was very impressed by this however

http://fr.1001mags.com/images/couv/C/Clespourletrainminiature/1/33523-Clespourletrainminiature-1-Page-012.jpg

http://fr.1001mags.com/images/couv/C/Clespourletrainminiature/1/33523-Clespourletrainminiature-1-Page-013.jpg

Using a lightweight interior door blank (204x83cms- 80ins x 33ins) for a baseboard and based on a Hornby (Jouef) train set plus four track extension packs the result would be a very operable model railway running fairly quickly as a bare boards for about 300€ and about double that to complete with proper scenery and buildings . Very proprietary of course with tight sertrack curves and points but definiitely not just a tail chaser. With a passing station on the viewing side and hidden sidings behind it could certainly be run in a totally railwaylike way even to a timetable with passenger trains and goods trains passing one another .with a satisfying amount of shunting for the latter.   

Edited December 13, 2018 by Pacific231G

[RJS1977]

And of course with an 'everything in one box' layout you wind up with something identical (or almost identical) to what a lot of other people have!

Edited December 13, 2018 by RJS1977

[Dunsignalling]

And of course with an 'everything in one box' layout you wind up with something identical (or almost identical) to what a lot of other people have!

And it's really only a more sophisticated progression from what Hornby have previously done in the trainsets that included "track mats".

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Prices shown on the Gaugemaster site. Beyond what most people might consider entry level.

Definitely. Those prices exceed what I paid for any of the cars I owned before 2004.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[009 micro modeller]

And of course with an 'everything in one box' layout you wind up with something identical (or almost identical) to what a lot of other people have!

That is a slight problem in some ways. I was thinking more of just having the baseboard and the normal contents of a train set, thus allowing the builder to create their own scenery from plaster/newspaper/whatever. The finished layout would have the same track plan as others (which many do anyway as they’re built from existing track plans) but everything else would be unique.

Edited December 14, 2018 by 009 micro modeller

[Robin2]

And of course with an 'everything in one box' layout you wind up with something identical (or almost identical) to what a lot of other people have!

Yes of course.

 

But the purpose IMHO is to create an attractive-to-an-adult and simple-to-implement entry point to the hobby.

 

If you buy a Lego kit, or a flying model airplane, or a sailing model boat, or a model loco kit you will wind up with something identical to other people. I don't see that as a big deal if the thing you wind up with is a pleasure to own and display.

 

If you buy a Ford car it will be identical to hundreds of others.

 

...R

[Jol Wilkinson]

Yes of course.

 

But the purpose IMHO is to create an attractive-to-an-adult and simple-to-implement entry point to the hobby.

 

If you buy a Lego kit, or a flying model airplane, or a sailing model boat, or a model loco kit you will wind up with something identical to other people. I don't see that as a big deal if the thing you wind up with is a pleasure to own and display.

 

If you buy a Ford car it will be identical to hundreds of others.

 

...R

Surely one of the main features of the GMRC series was about creativity and you are advocating something opposite. 

 

The  enjoyment of discovering different track formations, etc. was something that most of us experienced in our train set days. Even those who still buy their locos, stock, building, lineside accessories, etc. in a box marked "Made in the PRC" (other counties of manufacture are available) still enjoy making a creative input to their layout. So what is wrong with the concept of a train set? Simple to assemble track, provides a basis for expansion, lots of add ons available, etc. Assembling and taking apart to reassemble in different "layouts" provides entertainment and starts people on a learning curve. So perhaps RTU baseboards are not neccessary, at least to start with. I would suggest the creative assembly part of the train set entry point end of the hobby is probably as much "fun" as actually operating it.

 

So rather than try to over think and over engineer an answer to providing a way into railway modelling, shouldn't we accept it already exists. The problem is, perhaps, that it is access to buying a train set, items to expand it and get answers to simple questions is what is now largely missing with the  demise of the traditional model shop or even toy retailer. Where in your local town can you buy one? Even if you have a model shop, you will probably find they operate "traditional" shop hours and, in an age when people are so busy they have to get someone else to do their grocery shopping for them or have everything delivered, aren't always accessible to everyone.

 

I utilising what is already available at reasonable cost and making it readily accessible would .provide a easier answer than trying to get "them" to reinvent the wheel.

[Robin2]

Surely one of the main features of the GMRC series was about creativity and you are advocating something opposite. 

All I am suggesting is another way to get into the hobby. Many many people are cash rich and time poor.

 

And many people don't like starting something in which they have no competence for fear of being laughed at by experts or just by family and friends. Give them scope to start with a good looking product and they may be tempted to move on to more traditional railway modelling.

 

The product needs to be good looking to adult eyes so that it is not easily dismissed as a "toy train".

 

...R

[john new]

A couple of small changes would be a big help as they would overcome the problems my grandsons had with their first trains and are probably common for most beginners of any age.

 

The first is track power. The current Hornby supplied silver coloured controller in train sets is awful. The old Tri-ang black with red knob one's supplied in the 60s actually did the job so that is a definite regression. Modern electric devices should be an improvement over 50-60 year old designs, fitting a useless plastic direction change slider that jams is not. The second is tension locks supplied but without an uncoupling stick.

 

Both very basic first principles failings that quickly deter progression onwards.

 

I can't comment on the control gear in Bachman/Farish sets as have never bought one. However, even the otherwise excellent Gaugemaster Combi I use regularly (and also bought for the grandkids) has a failing, the cable connectors on the back could do with being slightly bigger, sturdier, chocolate block style as the wires easily pull out of the micro sized fixing holes.

Edited December 14, 2018 by john new

[rue_d_etropal]

And of course with an 'everything in one box' layout you wind up with something identical (or almost identical) to what a lot of other people have!

I think this often happens with kits(nt necessarily railway. Some will rigorously follow instructions, even painting exactly as instructed. I am the opposite and prefer not to follow every instruction, unless it is absolutely necessary.

For layouts, I have mentioned(as have others) there is the Train 'n' Box done by Loco Revue in France(initially developped with help of Crowdfunding), using Peco track. Something like that could easily be done with a British(or any county) theme. Redulux supply the embossed surfaces for the buildings and they do different scales including 4mm/ft, and some might still follow instructions to the word, but others might be more creative, once they have built the baseboard.

https://trains.lrpresse.com/A-17487-train-in-box.aspx

 

For me it is still too big(mainly because I have run out of space to build any more big layouts!)

Edited December 14, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[timbowilts]

the Train 'n' Box!)

Fascinating!

A layout in a cardboard box that has a cardboard “baseboard”

 

Tim T

[rue_d_etropal]

Fascinating!

A layout in a cardboard box that has a cardboard “baseboard”

 

Tim T

Probably a lot longer lasting than some cardboard buildings people use. I presume the cardboard in the baseboard is good quality, similar to what is used to pack engineering bits(I did some work in cardboard recycling, and was able to save some of the better quality for building basesbards).

[Andy Hayter]

It is a tri-wall corregated board. 

I am not party to the specification, but in the past have used similar tri-wall board to hold 1200kg product.  Despite the prejudice that many will have this stuff can be very strong.

[Pacific231G]

And it's really only a more sophisticated progression from what Hornby have previously done in the trainsets that included "track mats".

 

John

It (Train'in box) is rather more than that John. It isn't just a question of assemblng components; to build it you do have to use most of the key skills needed for scenic layout buiilding. While the step by step instructions will take you through that, you should, having buiit, it be reasonably well equipped to go on to further layouts and, probably more important, have the confidence from having done it once, to know that you can.

 

I'd see something like Train'in Box as being closer to the sort of balsa aircraft kits (KeilKraft was a good example AFAIR) that we built and flew as youngsters. They came with everything in the kit (apart from the balsa cement and dope I think) including precut components but you stil had to lay them out on the plans and build them carefully if you wanted the model to fly satisfacorily. After building a couple of those, most of us were able to go on to "scratch building" from plans rather than needing a kit but the kits were a really good stepping stone,  

Edited December 14, 2018 by Pacific231G

[PatB]

I'm inclined to think that, for the raw beginner, something that is guaranteed (as far as is possible in something like this) to produce a good, working result fairly quickly and without needing to find additional material probably takes priority over creativity. Getting a pleasing, if not perfect, result on the first try is, I think, important for morale. I think the Train in Box concept is a good way to achieve this. Having built it, the neophyte can move on to something more sophisticated at leisure. Importantly, with careful choice of loco, stock and buildings, much of what comes in the box can be reused once that first layout outlived its usefulness.

[rue_d_etropal]

It is a tri-wall corregated board. 

I am not party to the specification, but in the past have used similar tri-wall board to hold 1200kg product.  Despite the prejudice that many will have this stuff can be very strong.

that sounds like the stuff I got hold off.The paper content was very good quality, if yoy cut it with a knife, you then had to be careful of 'paper cuts'.

[Zomboid]

I love the idea of the Train'in Box. I just don't want to diversify even further from my fairly extensive US HO and minimal Southern Railway OO collections.

 

Though European railways are on my modelling bucket list, as it were.

[timbowilts]

I am tempted by it as a quick way to get something running quickly after a pending relocation to another country next year

 

Tim T

[Robin2]

What's to stop someone marketing a UK outline equivalent to the "train in a box" ?

 

...R

[Andy Hayter]

Vision?

 

But in truth, for all we love the concept, I have no idea how successful or  otherwise this has been commercially.

[Phil Parker]

What's to stop someone marketing a UK outline equivalent to the "train in a box" ?

 

...R

 

Nothing at all - I'm mystified why you think there might be an issue.

 

Would it be commercial? I'm not sure. There would be loads of people saying, "I like it and might buy one if you did x,y,z...."

[Robin2]

Nothing at all - I'm mystified why you think there might be an issue.

It was a somewhat rhetorical question in the hope that some constructive ideas might emerge. IIRC that was the reason this Thread was started.

 

In practice a lot would depend on how much investment was needed to produce the kit. If a small production run could be viable then the business risk would be low. There are plenty of off-the shelf model buildings and trains, track and power units so the only part needing investment is the baseboard and scenery.

 

...R

Edited December 15, 2018 by Robin2

[RJS1977]

We've been looking at this from a manufacturer's perspective, but perhaps a way forwards would be for one of the larger retailers to pick this up and run with it by constructing one or more small layouts to be used for photography, display in the shop and at shows etc, with a web page listing all the items required and an option for the purchaser to select as many items as they require (with a discount for purchasing the lot/a substantial element). So the list would probably be:

 

* Train set of some sort

* Track expansion pack

* Possible extra rolling stock

* Buildings (either kit or ready to plant)

* Grass mat

* Trees

* Other accessories as required

* Paints, glues, tools etc

 

All of which the retailer would normally carry in stock anyway.

 

The only item which the retailer would be unlikely to carry in stock would be baseboards but I'm sure there could be an arrangement between the retailer and one of the baseboard companies to supply baseboards as required.

 

There would be a number of advantages:

 

1) Less commercial risk as the retailer carries everything anyway.

2) Possibly an avenue for the retailer to get rid of slower selling items.

3) Enables a layout to be built taking the most suitable elements from different manufacturers.

4) The buyer doesn't have to buy everything in one go - if working to a budget, they can come back for the remaining items later (Christmas/birthday presents perhaps?)

5) More freedom for the buyer to mix and match with other products sold/items they already have/scratchbuilding as required.

[Pacific231G]

It was a somewhat rhetorical question in the hope that some constructive ideas might emerge. IIRC that was the reason this Thread was started.

 

In practice a lot would depend on how much investment was needed to produce the kit. If a small production run could be viable then the business risk would be low. There are plenty of off-the shelf model buildings and trains, track and power units so the only part needing investment is the baseboard and scenery.

 

...R

I think it took the team at Loco-Revue a couple of years to get from initial thinking to the protoptype Train'in Box but that may have included the time needed to sort out the crowd funding (It was a crowd funded project somewhat apart from L-R's other activities though drawing heavily on their skillset)

 

What they did have going for them was experience of getting things printed on paper and card and directly distributed to customers. That had already widened from magazine publishing to their fairly sophisticated (and not cheap) card kits for buildings in the Regions et Compagnies range. My impression, from what I saw of it at Trainsmania in Lille last year, was that the precut building kits that come in the Train'in Box carton are somewhere between Regions et Compagnies and the card building sheets often included in Loco Revue as centre fold inserts (think Bilteezi sheets but with a much larger range)but I think the roofing and other textures are those used for the Regions & Compagnies building kits.

The bullding kits designed for Train'in Box are also now being marketed as stand alone products but identified with it as  "Les bâtiments Train’In Box"

 I've also just seen that the Regions et Compagnies range now includes kits for complete dioramas. For these you need to a shelf that can accomodate 74cmas x28.5cms as well as the track (Peco) and ballast but the kits include the backscene. . 

 

In terms of encouraging the hobby- next year's TrainsMania will include

"Un parcours de visite pédagogique pour initier le visiteur au modélisme" (An educational tour to introduce the visitor to model making)

Not sure if that means a guided tour or more probably a suggested route through the exhibition- that does look like an idea that clubs here could think about,.

[rue_d_etropal]

I think it took the team at Loco-Revue a couple of years to get from initial thinking to the protoptype Train'in Box but that may have included the time needed to sort out the crowd funding (It was a crowd funded project somewhat apart from L-R's other activities though drawing heavily on their skillset)

 

What they did have going for them was experience of getting things printed on paper and card and directly distributed to customers. That had already widened from magazine publishing to their fairly sophisticated (and not cheap) card kits for buildings in the Regions et Compagnies range. My impression, from what I saw of it at Trainsmania in Lille last year, was that the precut building kits that come in the Train'in Box carton are somewhere between Regions et Compagnies and the card building sheets often included in Loco Revue as centre fold inserts (think Bilteezi sheets but with a much larger range)but I think the roofing and other textures are those used for the Regions & Compagnies building kits.

Train'in Box buildings (ex P1090702).JPG

The bullding kits designed for Train'in Box are also now being marketed as stand alone products but identified with it as  "Les bâtiments Train’In Box"

 I've also just seen that the Regions et Compagnies range now includes kits for complete dioramas. For these you need to a shelf that can accomodate 74cmas x28.5cms as well as the track (Peco) and ballast but the kits include the backscene. . 

 

In terms of encouraging the hobby- next year's TrainsMania will include

"Un parcours de visite pédagogique pour initier le visiteur au modélisme" (An educational tour to introduce the visitor to model making)

Not sure if that means a guided tour or more probably a suggested route through the exhibition- that does look like an idea that clubs here could think about,.

I think the roof material and other textured surfaces are from Redulux, based in Spain, and are a textured riubbery type material, not card. Loco Revue have been involved in distribution, so it is possible they have uaedvthem with other kits.I got the impression that the main structure of each building was more like a laser cut (very thick card or wood?) kit,not thin card.

Edited December 17, 2018 by rue_d_etropal