Problems with various DCC controllers

[TomMcG]

Hi folks,

 

I've came back to the hobby about 4 months ago, and during this time I could not find a suitable DCC controller.

Every unit I've tried had some issues, while some others are not suitable (I need all 28 functions and be able to read CVs).

 

Roco z21 (white)- flickering cab and/or directional lights (LokSound chips), buzzing noise (Hattons, TTS)
Roco Z21 (black) - flickering cab and/or directional lights (LokSound chips), buzzing noise (Hattons, TTS), no change on changing voltage

PIKO SmartControl - flickering cab and/or directional lights (LokSound chips), buzzing noise (Hattons), does not recognise all TTS (Class A3 ok, but Class 67 not)

Gaugemaster DCC02 Prodigy Advanced 2 - lights ok, problems reading CVs, got one with broken PSU - returned; could not try WiFi (can't read write CVs on WiFi?)

 

Zimo and Zen decoders seemed to work fine with any of these.

 

Strangely, my simple 10-funtion Bachmann E-Z Command Centre has no issues at all - no flickering lights, all loco addresses programable, no buzzing.

 

Unsuitable are Hornby Select / Elite and Bachmann Dynamis Ultima, as the don't support 28 functions AFAIK.

 

The price tag on the ECoS is quite high, and the company produces the PIKO SmartControl components, so it might be similar issues.

 

Is there any other Controller to recommend to try?

 

Thank you very much for any help!

 

Cheers,

Tom

 

 

Edit: topic title typo

Edited October 21, 2018 by TomMcG

[WIMorrison]

Personally, I would look to resolve the problems with the locos that are having issues as having tried all those controllers which all left the issues the same it suggests to me that the fault doesn't lie with the controllers.

Edited October 21, 2018 by WIMorrison

[Salmotrutta]

Just a thought - have any of the locos still got the capacitors / chokes in place? These can cause lots of bizarre problems. I have a Tillig  TT layout and weirdness with some of my DCC controllers was due to capacitors fitted to the track (which has integrated roadbed). Took them out - no problems!

[melmerby]

Hi folks,

 

Unsuitable are Hornby Select / Elite and Bachmann Dynamis Ultima, as the don't support 28 functions AFAIK.

 

 

Thank you very much for any help!

 

Cheers,

Tom

 

 

Edit: topic title typo

Hornby Elite does support 28 functions. It says so in the manual.

 

Keith

[traction]

Hornby Elite does support 28 functions. It says so in the manual.

 

Keith

 

 The Hornby Select with V1.5 firmware will also support 28 functions as well.

The Bachmann Dynamis, any version (with Pro box or the new Ultima) will only support 20 functions and there is no way to upgrade the firmware to get it to support 28 functions, apparently its a hardware issue and not software.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited October 21, 2018 by traction

[GoingUnderground]

Hi folks,

 

I've came back to the hobby about 4 months ago, and during this time I could not find a suitable DCC controller.

Every unit I've tried had some issues, while some others are not suitable (I need all 28 functions and be able to read CVs).

 

Roco z21 (white)- flickering cab and/or directional lights (LokSound chips), buzzing noise (Hattons, TTS)

Roco Z21 (black) - flickering cab and/or directional lights (LokSound chips), buzzing noise (Hattons, TTS), no change on changing voltage

PIKO SmartControl - flickering cab and/or directional lights (LokSound chips), buzzing noise (Hattons), does not recognise all TTS (Class A3 ok, but Class 67 not)

Gaugemaster DCC02 Prodigy Advanced 2 - lights ok, problems reading CVs, got one with broken PSU - returned; could not try WiFi (can't read write CVs on WiFi?)

 

Zimo and Zen decoders seemed to work fine with any of these.

 

Strangely, my simple 10-funtion Bachmann E-Z Command Centre has no issues at all - no flickering lights, all loco addresses programable, no buzzing.

 

Unsuitable are Hornby Select / Elite and Bachmann Dynamis Ultima, as the don't support 28 functions AFAIK.

 

The price tag on the ECoS is quite high, and the company produces the PIKO SmartControl components, so it might be similar issues.

 

Is there any other Controller to recommend to try?

 

Thank you very much for any help!

 

Cheers,

Tom

 

 

Edit: topic title typo

That's an impressive list of controllers that you've rejected.

 

I've got an ECoS and I'm not aware of a flickering light issue with LokSound decoders.

[melmerby]

Maybe a bit more info on how these controllers were tested?

It seems incredible that so many faulty systems would be for sale. Most would be pretty bomb proof to misuse and random failure of so many seems unlikely.

 

Keith

[Nigelcliffe]

I suspect Railcom might be causing the flickering and buzzing.  Try the controllers deemed "problematic" with RailCom turned off. 

 

That said, I would try to resolve the issue in the locos and at the decoder or locomotive level. 

[Harlequin]

Hi Tom,

 

If you have computer skills you might consider a PiSprog. That is basically: JMRI software running on Linux on a Raspberry Pi computer connected to a Sprog DCC controller.

 

JMRI can read and write all CVs (although it's not exactly user friendly).

Has a wired or wireless network connection.

Can run the desktop remotely via VNC (and thus read and write CVs remotely).

Throttle apps can be used to drive via WiFi.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Harlequin

[TomMcG]

Thank you very much everybody for your answers.

 

Maybe I should have a look at the Hornby Elite as well; I think I got the old information from an outdated comparison table.

 

Now, the locos with light issues:

- Bachmann Class 37/4 with 21 pin LokSound 4 chip and Legomanbiffo's West Highland sound plus roads and rails double iphone speaker

- Bachmann Class 47/7 with 21 pin LokSound 4 chip and Legomanbiffo's 47/7 sound plus roads and rails double iphone speaker

 

Unrecognised by PIKO SmartControl:

- Hornby Class 67 TTS sound and roads and rails Bassreflex Speaker upgrade

 

Buzzing noise:

- Heljan Class 128 DPU with Hatton chip (no sound)

 

These locos have no issues:

- Bachmann Class 25 / Hornby Class K1 with added headlights / Dapol Class 68 with Zimo Soundchips/-speakers and appropriate YouChoos sounds

- Hornby Class A3 TTS sound with added headlights

- Class 08 with added lights and Zen chip (no sound)

- Hornby Class 101 SPT and Hatton chip (no sound)

 

I have tried the locos on main and program tracks (Peco); flickering happened when locos stand still, all sound functions work.

Also tried various mains plugs in the house.

 

Briefly had a Realtrack Class 156 DMU with Sound onboard when I had the Roco z21 (first one); here the interior lights were flickering as well.

I assumed this model was faulty, but it turned out the controller did to handle the LokSound chip(s) correctly.

 

Again, there are no issues at all using the Bachmann E-Z controller...

 

Thanks a lot again.

 

Cheers,

Tom

[NIK]

Hi,

 

If the flickering happens when the locos are still then the only things I can think of at present are a possible intermittent disconnection in the wiring between the controller and the track or something causing a very intermittent upset to the track (short enough or not enough current to trip the controller) - could be a faulty capacitor in a track feed if you have any of those.

 

As to the Hattons chip buzzing that could be a decoder related 'feature'.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[johnd]

Have a look at the Signatrack I use one & leave the bits in the loco. No problems. For what it does not that expensive!

[BoD]

For those locos with flickering lights have you checked that the number of speed steps set in the decoder match those set on the throttle/command station.

[TomMcG]

@Nigelcliffe

 

thanks for the tip; RailCom was already switched off on both locos after they had been recognised by the PIKO controller.

I assume the controller switched the flag off after it recognised it to not confuse the loco list.

 

@BoD

thank you; I've tried all speed step settings, but unfortunately it didn't help.

 

 

 

I wonder if a mains extension with built in filter or "conditioner" might help - the ones people use for TV / HiFi if they have issues with dropouts or noise.

My TV/HiFi has no problems at all, so I don't know if it would make sense (the E-Z works anyway).

 

[WIMorrison]

The power coming in definitely isn't your issue - have you got filters on your DCC bus, if not I why don't you try them? I suggest that you issue is more likely to be there and not with the DCC controllers as ther are many items that can cause bus issues, shape, length, connections, wire gauge, etc.

[GoingUnderground]

I suspect Railcom might be causing the flickering and buzzing.  Try the controllers deemed "problematic" with RailCom turned off. 

 

That said, I would try to resolve the issue in the locos and at the decoder or locomotive level. 

Whilst Railcom could cause flickering lights on some decoders, it would be surprising if it was Railcom causing the flickering on a LokSound as it was designed for Railcom and includes Railcom Plus.

[Nigelcliffe]

Whilst Railcom could cause flickering lights on some decoders, it would be surprising if it was Railcom causing the flickering on a LokSound as it was designed for Railcom and includes Railcom Plus.

 

Agreed.  As the thread has progressed, the details on which decoders have emerged.   I'd not expect any issues with the Piko system and an ESU decoder - the Piko is a badge-engineered ESU product, and the LokSound V4 is the current ESU sound decoder.   And the ESU decoders should be fine on the other systems which can deliver a RailCom signal.

 

Therefore, I agree with those who want to look at other issues, such as exactly how is power sent to the track, presence of anything which might be filtering the signal.  Examples might be track clips with suppressors in them, even if only hung on side of rails without wires going into the rear, any extra devices connected to the track taking power (signals, coach lighting without decoders, etc., etc..    If those are all good with no rogue devices on the track, then I'd be looking at the locos themselves and what's inside them. 

 

 

 

@Nigelcliffe

 

thanks for the tip; RailCom was already switched off on both locos after they had been recognised by the PIKO controller.

I assume the controller switched the flag off after it recognised it to not confuse the loco list.

 

Don't assume anything about the control side unless you went into the settings for the system and altered them.  If the controller generates a RailCom signal, its present in the track signal even if every loco has RailCom disabled.   Whilst (see above and elsewhere in thread), I don't think its an issue with the modern ESU LokSound decoders, it may be an issue with some of the cheaper decoders.   Some older decoder designs are not able to effectively handle the little gap in the DCC signal which is the RailCom cutout generated by the command station, and some cheap decoders are cheap because they use an old design. 

 

Some Hornby TTS chips have been faulty from the factory, with intermittent response on different systems.  So, my first thought with the TTS chip is "chip fault".  Hornby are good about arranging returns and replacement. 

 

Others have mentioned "speed steps" and possible mis-alignment of setting in decoder and setting in system.  I think this one is a long shot, but so you know, the EZ develops 28 speed step commands only (not 128 and not 14).   The EZ, assuming it has the stock transformer with it, also puts out a fairly high track voltage, so its possible the higher voltage is masking any light flicker effects.  Dropping the track voltage on the EZ might show this up, about 11v-12v AC as the power supply will bring the track voltage down to levels more commonly used by other makers.   

 

 

 

Nigel

[Mike Storey]

Have a look at the Signatrack I use one & leave the bits in the loco. No problems. For what it does not that expensive!

 

I second that. The British designed and assembled, Signatrak ACE 2 is easily as good as many of the usual German/Austrian/US systems, and less than half the price of an ECoS, with a similar size, colour display screen, showing all 28 functions. Mine does all I ask of it with a very short learning curve and almost no compatibility problems. It just lacks some of the more recent connectivity gadgets to laptops and phones (in development) and is not wireless (yet) but has additional hand held units as an inexpensive extra. I just do not understand why so few on here give it the plaudits it deserves when recommending a DCC system.

 

Check it out on https://www.signatrak.co.uk/products/ace-dcc-controller-accessories/dcs2044-ace-15-48

[WIMorrison]

If it was track voltage that was causing the issue then the z/Z21 would have masked it since the default output is between 16-18v

 

My experience has not shown any DCC systems that have a track voltage of 11-12v, I needed this would mean that the locos are undersupplied as you lose voltage to the decider chip and rectifier, if anything that would exacerbate the issue(s).

 

However, that said, I am still certain that the issue is in the layout and not the controllers.

Edited October 22, 2018 by WIMorrison

[RAF96]

With the errant Hornby TTS decoder just reverse the loco on track (physically turn it round not reverse it on the controller). Is the problem still there. Uni-directional misbehaviour is a lead to the decoder needing a reprogram by return to works - contact HCC.

 

Edit - do you have any of those mains broadband extender plugs (powerline adaptors) in the house as they radiate RF noise that could be affecting things.

Rob

Edited October 22, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[hobbyhorse]

My setup is digitrax with JMRI, and I can say I've never had any problems reading, tweaking and remapping chips. Before I retired from the model rail business I did a lot of chip fitting and diagnostics and problems with chips was down to faults on them.

 

Simon

[Phil S]

Until you have tested each controller when connected only to a short piece of otherwise-isolated track - with a connection that has no interference suppression capacitor (from analogue power feeds) - it cannot be verifies whether the 'problem' experienced is from the controller(s) or the loco(s) being tested. 

Additional possibiliites have already been mentioned; Railcom cutout - affecting some decoders not designed for it adversely**.

Lights going on and off as the speed changes is usually down to 14 speed steps v 28/128 steps mismatch,because of the different way n which the commands are sent between the 2 options ( with the decoder set in CV29, and the controller in its settings ).   The effect was described as 'flickering' - but was this speed related, or when the loco was stationary ? - this needs clarification

 

**According to the downloaded manual, the re-released Roco Rocoline embedded digital point motors will NOT be Railcom compatible !

- maybe they considered changng the software with the re release would cause confusion on layouts if  behaviour was different !

 

And whilst many seem to consider that 'read back' of CVs is a necessity - it isn't and slows programming considerably !

A 'better' (in my view) or alternative solution - when read-back IS wanted - is to use a dedicated system like the Sprog (anf now PiSprog?)  for just that purpose.  And a pencil and paper, or spreadsheet to record any results.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Phil S

[Nigelcliffe]

If it was track voltage that was causing the issue then the z/Z21 would have masked it since the default output is between 16-18v

 

My experience has not shown any DCC systems that have a track voltage of 11-12v, I needed this would mean that the locos are undersupplied as you lose voltage to the decider chip and rectifier, if anything that would exacerbate the issue(s).

 

You misunderstand my point.   With an EZ (and only the EZ), and the standard "16v AC" power supply, the track voltage is around 22 volts (so stuff runs rather fast, and some smaller scale items really don't like those volts).  With around 11-12v AC input, the EZ puts out something more sensible at the track.    Exact numbers, sorry this was about ten years ago, so I don't have them, but did spend time faffing with an EZ to get its track voltage down to "sensible".

[TomMcG]

Thanks again everybody for all your help.

 

Here's the main and prog test tracks, short cables from controllers to fishplates with no extensions.

 

I noticed some people had issues with e.g. HST TTS being responsive only in one direction, which could be fixed by sending them to Hornby.

This is not the case here, as the Class 67 TTS loco did run well with all controllers, except for the PIKO.

 

I wasn't aware that the E-Z pumps out such a high voltage, thanks for the info.

 

Also, I've ordered the suggested DCC bus terminator filters/snubbers; will give it a try.

 

Two of you guys mentioned the Signatrak ACE 2 controller, which is very interesting.

Just watched a video and I like the control options you have (e.g. handsets and all funtions on one screen).

And it's a bigger screen than the tiny smartphone display ;-)

 

I'll wait for the PIKO return and refund to be completed and then see what's happening...

 

Cheers everybody!

Edited October 22, 2018 by TomMcG

[NIK]

Hi TomMcG,

 

Although the tracks you photographed are very simple the track feeds to the locos are via fishplates and possibly via point blades.

 

There is just a chance this is the cause of the flickering lights.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick