Urgent Safety Advice today from RAIB

[ess1uk]

Because all the structures records, which go back a very long way, are in miles and chains and it is easier not to change them.

Jim

Structures are now being recorded by their GPS coordinates alongside their mileage

[royaloak]

But what happened to dets and signals maintained at danger when an ESR was required?

 

From 1948 until 1996, the railway was required to run a service, not make a profit. It did so, by and large, safely, but without benefit of half the gismos now in use.

 

Very glad to be retired!

The railways ceased to provide a service the day they were privatised, then it became a case of running trains to make a profit whether that was direct profit or subsidy.

[royaloak]

Beca

 

 

Because the minimum length it is possible to quote is 22 yards (as opposed obviously to one yard !)

Good luck giving a driver an instruction of a 20 ESR at 127 miles and 946 yards, a chain is well understood by those who need to understand it and, to be quite honest that is all that matters, the fact others looking in from the outside dont understand it doesnt mean it doesnt work.

 

Oh a chain is (near enough) a 20 metre coach length meaning it is even easier to understand.

[Hobby]

The railways ceased to provide a service the day they were privatised, then it became a case of running trains to make a profit whether that was direct profit or subsidy.

As somone who joined the railways after privatisation (a misnomer if ever there was one] I object strongly to that comment. I used BR daily for commuting and long distance journeys prior to joining the railway fir 25 years and the service my colleagues and I give the passenger is far better than I was given when I was a mere passenger. The current set up isn't perfect by any means but to want to go back to the old days would make matters worse for those who matter, the passengers.

[Davexoc]

Structures are now being recorded by their GPS coordinates alongside their mileage

GPS is great if there are enough sattelites available, but not always that accurate. 11pm one night door bell rings, next door neighbour asking if his mobile phone is in our house. He couldn't find it and had tracked it to our house, saying maybe our cat had picked it up. Rang it, nothing heard.

Appologetically texted the next day revealing it had fallen down the side of his car seat parked some 50-60 feet away from where he thought it was.....

 

Dave

[Davexoc]

As somone who joined the railways after privatisation (a misnomer if ever there was one] I object strongly to that comment. I used BR daily for commuting and long distance journeys prior to joining the railway fir 25 years and the service my colleagues and I give the passenger is far better than I was given when I was a mere passenger. The current set up isn't perfect by any means but to want to go back to the old days would make matters worse for those who matter, the passengers.

But back in BR days when there were trains that connected, one service might wait for another if it was running slightly late, thus enabling a connection. With privatisation that has gone, because the services are run by different companies and one isn't wanting to be late due to another for fear of compensation payments and league table status. The service is now run for the shareholders and not the passengers.

 

Dave

[uax6]

One other problem is that ESRs now do not ever seem to turn into TSRs. We’ve had a long running ESR tha5 has been on for about 3months now, what happened to them being in the WON and becoming TSRs I thin a fortnight?

 

As for the new standardisation of the WONs with lines blocked and only giving you one part of the limit (you have to work out the other part from the rest of the limits!) is just madness dreamt up by those who have never been on the coalfacr of safety.

 

The railway is heading for a big accident at great speed....

 

Andy G

[royaloak]

As somone who joined the railways after privatisation

For information, so did I, well after in fact, just in case you assumed it was some sort of 'back in my day blah blah blah' post.

 

It wasnt aimed at the people actually providing the service, but those in orrifices making decisions which have a negative impact on the staffs ability to provide the passengers with the service they have a right to expect.

Edited December 1, 2018 by royaloak

[royaloak]

The railway is heading for a big accident at great speed....

 

Andy G

Unfortunately I have to agree with you, the memory of Grayrigg has faded (just as Hatfield did before that etc) and we are due a wake up call/reminder not to take liberties with the infrastructure.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Unfortunately I have to agree with you, the memory of Grayrigg has faded (just as Hatfield did before that etc) and we are due a wake up call/reminder not to take liberties with the infrastructure.

Those who forget the lessons of history are at the greatest risk of repeating them.

[Hobby]

But back in BR days when there were trains that connected, one service might wait for another if it was running slightly late, thus enabling a connection. With privatisation that has gone, because the services are run by different companies and one isn't wanting to be late due to another for fear of compensation payments and league table status. The service is now run for the shareholders and not the passengers.

 

Dave

I agree though they didn't always hold trains in those days either. The point i was making was that despite some shortcomings the current set up is far more passenger orientated than BR. I can relate many stories from my commuting days that just wouldn't be tolerated as acceptable these days.

 

Royaloak I was just saying at return to the old days is not what is needed and there are far too many with rise tinted glasses around who seem to forget the bad bits.

 

We need something different to what we have now but BR isn't the answer. Times have changed and things moved on. Anyhow perhaps I've drifted far too far off topic.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Hobby

[DY444]

Whilst the RAIB seems to be focussing for now on potential flaws in the dissemination of late notices, the bigger issue to me is why the driver didn't brake having encountered a dalek and associated AWS magnets he apparently had no previous knowledge of.  Brake first and ask questions later would seem to be prudent in such circumstances or, to paraphrase an aviation saying, the most useless thing in rail operation is braking distance behind the train.  I await the final report with interest.  

 

PS.  And of course even receiving the full complement of notices doesn't guarantee this sort of thing won't happen.  There was the incident not that long ago on the WCML where a train went through a 5mph TSR at line speed.

Edited December 2, 2018 by DY444

[Neil]

But back in BR days when there were trains that connected, one service might wait for another if it was running slightly late, thus enabling a connection. With privatisation that has gone, because the services are run by different companies and one isn't wanting to be late due to another for fear of compensation payments and league table status. The service is now run for the shareholders and not the passengers.

 

Dave

 

Last month I was on a late running service from South Wales to Manchester, our connecting train to the Cambrian coast was held for fifteen minutes at Shrewsbury to allow the connection. Admittedly all Transport for Wales but still good old fashioned pride in the service offered to the passenger.

[Hobby]

Some of my Control friends may correct me but there's a lot more to holding trains than meets the eye. I often work our last train which can be and is held for other services to connect with it. But other things which may prevent a train being held are now busy the station is (more services these days so potential delays to other services) and whether it is more than one TOC involved and if the asking TOC will pay the delay fines. The latter is one bad symptom of the existing set up the first showing how many extra services we now provide.

 

There are lots more examples. It was never a simple decission back on the day nor is it now.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Hobby

[caradoc]

But back in BR days when there were trains that connected, one service might wait for another if it was running slightly late, thus enabling a connection. With privatisation that has gone, because the services are run by different companies and one isn't wanting to be late due to another for fear of compensation payments and league table status. The service is now run for the shareholders and not the passengers.

 

Dave

 

The issue with holding connections is that it spreads late running across the network and delays all the passengers already on the train (who might themselves have connections further down the line). It is still done however, and it was not automatic in BR days; I recall arriving late at New St and getting to the platform for (IIRC) the 1925 or thereabouts to Oxford only to see it disappearing into the tunnel. The next train was 80 minutes later.

[jjb1970]

On many routes the service frequency is probably good enough that on balance it is less problematic to let connections go unless it is the last train of the day.

[jjb1970]

I blame electrons for not behaving themselves.

[caradoc]

Because all the structures records, which go back a very long way, are in miles and chains and it is easier not to change them.

 

Jim

 

Fair point, but we managed somehow in Scotland !

 

 

In my depot my staff report faults to me in miles and chains, never a issue. 22yds is but one length. For a specific issue, say a UTU fault, we not only get GPRS coordinations, you get miles, the chain plus yards eg, 72m 6ch + 7yds.

 

Which could be expressed more simply as 72m 139yds !

 

 

I would agree with earlier comments that the equipment on the ground was not always positioned correctly, if we received such a report in Control we always followed it up but if the local PW staff said everything was in order that was it, unless further complaints were received. We also occasionally had the PW wanting to impose an ESR at a single mileage, for a rail defect for example, and had to advise them that this was not possible, not least because the Commencement and Termination boards cannot be in the same place ! We usually then worked to a minimum distance of 10 yards. 

 

Edited, spelling mistake

Edited December 2, 2018 by caradoc

[Oldddudders]

The issue with holding connections is that it spreads late running across the network and delays all the passengers already on the train (who might themselves have connections further down the line). It is still done however, and it was not automatic in BR days; I recall arriving late at New St and getting to the platform for (IIRC) the 1925 or thereabouts to Oxford only to see it disappearing into the tunnel. The next train was 80 minutes later.

The people who operate New St truly earn their corn. Not so much squeezing a quart into a pint pot as a gallon into half a pint! By comparison, the more famous Clapham Junction is really just a blow-through, with relatively few conflicting moves.

[Covkid]

Whilst the RAIB seems to be focussing for now on potential flaws in the dissemination of late notices, the bigger issue to me is why the driver didn't brake having encountered a dalek and associated AWS magnets he apparently had no previous knowledge of.  Brake first and ask questions later would seem to be prudent in such circumstances or, to paraphrase an aviation saying, the most useless thing in rail operation is braking distance behind the train.  I await the final report with interest.  

 

PS.  And of course even receiving the full complement of notices doesn't guarantee this sort of thing won't happen.  There was the incident not that long ago on the WCML where a train went through a 5mph TSR at line speed.

 

That remains my immediate thought "DY444".

An ESR can be imposed at any time and it is the person staring out the window at the front who will encounter it first. It is nice to think that every ESR is in the Late Notices system but life isn't that simple, and nothing replaces the driver's sight. Think about it.  Between a driver departing Newcastle and passing Finsbury Park, an awful lot can happen in that time.   

[Oldddudders]

That remains my immediate thought "DY444".

An ESR can be imposed at any time and it is the person staring out the window at the front who will encounter it first. It is nice to think that every ESR is in the Late Notices system but life isn't that simple, and nothing replaces the driver's sight. Think about it.  Between a driver departing Newcastle and passing Finsbury Park, an awful lot can happen in that time.

 

Indeed it can. But on the day, and until every notice case has it published, a red light and dets should greet every train.

[big jim]

In this day and age a GSM broadcast can be sent to any train in the area advising them of the restriction, most of the time it’s clear enough to hear compared to NRN and it can be resent every couple of minutes

 

the only time I’ve ever had a last minute ESR imposed where there was no warnings I was stopped prior to it and advised by the signaller at the signal before that the warning boards were in the process of being put out and to proceed at caution until the next signal where I would be clear of it

 

Personally I don’t see the issue with there being no need to warn drivers of ESR in late notice cases, I’ve not looked in one for years due to the nature of my work and I’m no less professional than someone who sees late notice cases everyday

 

Looking at ertms too, as much as I have criticised it in the past ESRs can be sent straight to the cab of a loco/unit which is a really good idea, you ain’t going to miss one on that system! I’ve actually had one sent to my 97 on the way to Machynlleth and as the fault was repaired by the time I returned it was immediately cancelled and didn’t effect me on the way back

[iands]

To echo big jim's comments, the GSMR can be set up to broadcast a pre-recorded message (by the signaller) to be made to particular trains when they occupy specific signal berths, i.e. a signal berth on the approach to where an ESR has been imposed but the boards etc. haven't yet been erected, thereby only targetting the trains/drivers that need to know. For example, if an ESR has been imposed on the Up line, there is no need to broadcast the message to trains/drivers on the Down line that a general or "area" broadcast would do.

[caradoc]

Indeed it can. But on the day, and until every notice case has it published, a red light and dets should greet every train.

 

But you would also have to ensure somehow that every single Driver booked to work (and even remotely likely to work, in case of unplanned diversions) over the route had seen the notice, so trains would have to be stopped and cautioned for several hours, despite all the equipment being in place on the ground. 

[Ken.W]

Whilst the RAIB seems to be focussing for now on potential flaws in the dissemination of late notices, the bigger issue to me is why the driver didn't brake having encountered a dalek and associated AWS magnets he apparently had no previous knowledge of. Brake first and ask questions later would seem to be prudent in such circumstances or, to paraphrase an aviation saying, the most useless thing in rail operation is braking distance behind the train. I await the final report with interest

Again, keeping my comments to the subject of the RAIB notice only.

As I indicated in my previous post the driver concerned is still subject to an ongoing investigation so any information concerning that is not open, or appropriate, for public disclosure.

RAIB investigations however, as they state in the pre-amble of reports, are not in the business of apportioning blame, and they tend to be thorough in examining all issues, including any possible contributory factors. The history of such reports, from the earliest days of the HMRI (around 150 years), is that pointing the finger and just saying “it wer’ ‘im” has never stopped anyone else making the same mistake.

This notice by RAIB concerns that during this investigation, they’ve found a non-compliance with established industry guidance which has evidently been considered serious enough to issue an immediate Urgent Safety Advice for any operators concerned to review their practices.

An ESR can be imposed at any time and it is the person staring out the window at the front who will encounter it first. It is nice to think that every ESR is in the Late Notices system but life isn't that simple, and nothing replaces the driver's sight. Think about it. Between a driver departing Newcastle and passing Finsbury Park, an awful lot can happen in that time.

 

Yes, As has been posted several times, an ESR can be imposed at any time, however in relation to this matter I can just draw attention to the times quoted in the RAIB notice

Agreed departing Newcastle to passing Finsbury Park an awful lot can happen, and indeed often does, though it does tend to be an awful lot less than 25 hours

Edited December 2, 2018 by Ken.W