Urgent Safety Advice today from RAIB

[jim.snowdon]

This advice only relates to the notification of ESRs (or the lack thereof) by the TOCs, not the apparent failure of the driver to react to the trackside signage. That may well be still the subject of ongoing RAIB investigation, and any enforcement issues will be dealt with by the ORR (aka HMRI).

 

Jim

[iands]

About 25 years ago I went through a 20mph ESR at around 75mph, I stopped to report it at the next signal (before NRN), which I thought I should as there were about 12 PWay staff stood looking the broken rail as I went through!

It turned out that though warning boards had just been placed they had not been placed on the route I had approached from, after reporting it to the signalman and later writing a report, I never heard another thing, though the correct boards were in place next day

So don't go blaming the driver just yet- wait until all the facts are known.

What part of the world was that 101? NRN was operational well before 1993, though I admit some areas were somewhat patchy for a while.

[101]

What part of the world was that 101? NRN was operational well before 1993, though I admit some areas were somewhat patchy for a while.

It was on the GWML though it may well have been before 1993 (thinking about it, it was probably around 91) or maybe just the NRN wasn't working I can't remember - but I do remember speaking on the SPT.

[iands]

It was on the GWML though it may well have been before 1993 (thinking about it, it was probably around 91) or maybe just the NRN wasn't working I can't remember - but I do remember speaking on the SPT.

Thinking about the situation you describe 101, it was both better and (perhaps more importantly) correct that you reported the 'incident' via an SPT rather than NRN, as the SPT would connect you to the controlling signaller whereas the NRN (Red button) would only connect you to Route Control.

[Rugd1022]

For what it's worth, in contrast to the almighty fuax pah discussed aboce, today there was a blanket 50mph speed restriction on all lines between London Euston and Crewe due to high winds, the instruction was broadcast over the GSM-R to all Drivers every few minutes until it was lifted just after mid-day.

 

As for remote booking on and reading our late notices etc (in my company's case at least) if we don't book on by phone within twenty minutes or so the BOP will be ringing us up, leaving several voicemails if necessary. All of our notices come to our company issued ipads these days and the dates on which we open and read them are all part of the annual audit.

[beast66606]

Maybe it is illustrative of the railway operating psyche, when a perfectly genuine and (to me) eminently sensible question was asked by someone who had already indicated his "layman" status; is answered by pedantry concerning the mistake of calling an yellow signal amber. 

 

I really do despair if this is representative of the "us and them" attitude nationwide. 

 

I'm an amateur and I would correct someone who called a signal "amber" - traffic lights show amber, railway signals show yellow. The reason for correcting is so they know they've made a mistake - otherwise how does anyone ever learn ?

 

Same as virtually anyone in any field would correct someone who used the wrong terminolgy.

[ess1uk]

For what it's worth, in contrast to the almighty fuax pah discussed aboce, today there was a blanket 50mph speed restriction on all lines between London Euston and Crewe due to high winds, the instruction was broadcast over the GSM-R to all Drivers every few minutes until it was lifted just after mid-day.

 .

That’s the good thing about the GSMR, the ability to record a message and let it play out automatically

[101]

Maybe it is illustrative of the railway operating psyche, when a perfectly genuine and (to me) eminently sensible question was asked by someone who had already indicated his "layman" status; is answered by pedantry concerning the mistake of calling an yellow signal amber.

 

I really do despair if this is representative of the "us and them" attitude nationwide.

Sorry you feel like that Jonny.

Two of us answered the posters question and whilst both of us did indeed correct him on his use of amber signal - the term 'Amber' instead of Yellow on the railway is a big no no - both of us gave an answer and neither of us said his question was not a sensible one or dismissed him for being a layman.

In fact as I am now retired I could be described as a layman myself

[newbryford]

Oh well no harm done.

 

What a totally inane comment.

 

You make it sound like we are playing with toy trains.

The outcome could have been extremely serious.

[phil-b259]

Maybe it is illustrative of the railway operating psyche, when a perfectly genuine and (to me) eminently sensible question was asked by someone who had already indicated his "layman" status; is answered by pedantry concerning the mistake of calling an yellow signal amber. 

 

I really do despair if this is representative of the "us and them" attitude nationwide. 

 

It may be more to do with the fact that this is a model railway forum and many posters (including myself on occasion) assume everyone will have a certain basic level of railway knowledge. In hindsight this is perhaps unwise as you don't have to work in the railway industry to join.

 

However right from when railways were invented there has NEVER been an 'amber' signal and if you strive to replicate prototype practice on your model (as many on here do) then such a thing will have been obvious from doing background research.

 

Granted it may seem a bit petty to an outsider but within the industry its the sort of mistake that people only make once....

 

Similar traps include:-

 

referring to 'frogs' when talking about pointwork - to every single UK P-way person (and quite a few folk working in other disciplines) the correct term, which everybody uses is 'Crossing'

referring to 'bulbs' when talking about lighting - to every single S&T person (and probably traincrew too) signals have lamps (which may be powered by batteries, paraffin or mains electricity).

[Robert Shrives]

Also of course "railway station" compared to the childish sounding "train station" - or is that just me.

 

Just to say I PM the gent about speed restrictions and  imposing them correctly.   I think LNER controls will be discussing the matter and proving a safe system in place...

 

Robert      

[chris p bacon]

 While in this case the speed had been on long enough for Late Notice posting that does not relieve any Driver of their responsibility to comply with the Rules and if they can't see a correctly sited 'metal mickey' Emergency Speed Indicator flashing away at them as they approach then I would be seriously concerned, and even more concerned if a Driver ignores it - here, third picture from the top, with brilliant white lights which flash, these things are very hard to miss 

 

 I can't answer regarding the rule book, but the siting of the restriction at Sandy is on a long left handed curve, the driver has approx 500-700 yards of clear sight for Sandy South which is the slow to main turnout. 

It's also the spot on the Down where Tornado failed a few months ago... and..... where a wheel set on a Mk4 fractured ripping up half a mile on the down main.... and....where a down Pullman hit a buckled rail on a hot day and went down the embankment...

 

I'm thinking of joining the train at Biggleswade from now on....

[E3109]

I passed through a 20mph slack at a line speed of 75 fairly recently, purely because the temporary signage was laid out incorrectly. Of course I reported it at the earliest opportunity although I must add, I'll wager a pound to a groat that nobody on the PW Dept (or more likely their contractors) copped for it.

 

And the latest nugget is that somebody within HMG is pushing for cctv in our cabs.

FGS train drivers are already among the most closely monitored employees in the UK, with OTMR and all the other safety devices we have in cab.

 

Sorry but if HMG wanna see me on video peeing into a bottle on a long trip then I class that as voyeurism and they can booger off.

Glad I'm finishing soon

 

And if they impose this nonsense, my fallback position of returning part time can go to hell too.

 

And don't get me started on km/h... There is an easily applied patch available for mph on the routes being converted to unsignalled electrickery zones but they just aren't interested.

 

Fed up of all this interference by people who know feck all about our railway but get the lanyard IDs to do so.

Listen to railway(wo)men, or clear off.

 

Am I a Luddite?

Yes, damn right. I have no issues whatsoever with OTMR, but being spied upon in my cab is a step way too far. We already have the 'black box' which is more than sufficient, and a good thing.

Edited November 30, 2018 by E3109

[Siberian Snooper]

The last 4 years of my bus driving career (see where the amber comes from) the buses we drove were bristling with cameras, up to 8 on a  single and more on a "decker".

[Oldddudders]

What a totally inane comment.

 

You make it sound like we are playing with toy trains.

The outcome could have been extremely serious.

You are not wrong, Mick, about the potentially catastrophic outcome, of course. But luck held, no-one got hurt, no expensive damage was done. Phew. I think that was probably the point of the comment.

 

But what did happen was important, inasmuchas there is a new awareness of possible holes in systems, need for checks and reassurances, re-writing of manuals and procedures, maybe. In that respect, such a “near miss” gives the industry an insight and should help avoid such things in future, without the distress of a major and potentially tragic incident.

 

But the apparent holes in the existing system are worrying, to say the least.

[101]

 

 

And the latest nugget is that somebody within HMG is pushing for cctv in our cabs.

FGS train drivers are already among the most closely monitored employees in the UK, with OTMR and all the other safety devices we have in cab.

 

Sorry but if HMG wanna see me on video peeing into a bottle on a long trip then I class that as voyeurism and they can booger off.

Glad I'm finishing soon

 

And if they impose this nonsense, my fallback position of returning part time can go to hell too.

 

 

I have to agree with you, if I wasn't already finished then inward facing CCTV would've probably made me retire, and this idea currently being discussed of having infra red beams shining into your eyes all day would definitely have pushed me over the edge , Luddite me? Definitely

[Southernman46]

Of course,the real solution is too have little or no ESRs or deal with them as a matter of importance. It's not hard to achieve. Been there done it.

[Oldddudders]

Of course,the real solution is too have little or no ESRs or deal with them as a matter of importance. It's not hard to achieve. Been there done it.

Broken crossing, it’s a special, takes weeks to procure a replacement. It happened in my day, surely still now?

[brushman47544]

All of our notices come to our company issued ipads these days and the dates on which we open and read them are all part of the annual audit.

 

I no longer know any UK drivers personally, but a friend who drives for Trenitalia says that, like you, he gets everything downloaded onto his tablet before taking out a train (he is not allowed to take out the train without doing so), including in his case the running details (timing, stops, loco, consist, brake force etc.), which includes any TSR or ESR info. Remote signing on with no personal interface to receive notices should not be an issue with today's technology. 

[caradoc]

About 25 years ago I went through a 20mph ESR at around 75mph, I stopped to report it at the next signal (before NRN), which I thought I should as there were about 12 PWay staff stood looking the broken rail as I went through!

It turned out that though warning boards had just been placed they had not been placed on the route I had approached from, after reporting it to the signalman and later writing a report, I never heard another thing, though the correct boards were in place next day

 

So don't go blaming the driver just yet- wait until all the facts are known.

 

It is absolutely right that the provision, positioning and visibility of the ESR equipment should be fully checked as part of the investigation, however the RAIB Advice does state 'Marker boards and associated automatic warning system (AWS) magnets were in place to provide warning of the emergency speed restriction', and makes no mention of any issue.

[iands]

It is absolutely right that the provision, positioning and visibility of the ESR equipment should be fully checked as part of the investigation, however the RAIB Advice does state 'Marker boards and associated automatic warning system (AWS) magnets were in place to provide warning of the emergency speed restriction', and makes no mention of any issue.

 

Agreed. And no doubt the FFCCTV camera evidence also show the ESR boards etc. in place, but (probably rightly so) RAIB didn't want to share this evidence in public.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I recently read the report on the Nuneaton crash of 1975 where an express went through a TSR at about 90. Two locos on the front, driver didn't notice the TSR and thought it had been lifted. To cut a long story short, several people dead, the warning lights and commencement lights were out. This is before the introduction of AWS magnets for TSRs.

 

It seems progress has gone backwards since then

Nuneaton has always bugged me from the moment I heard the circumstances down the grapevine that morning. Some time earlier we were doing a new bridge which involved moving the two tracks of a former 4-track line from their old position to the vacant track bed of the ones which had been recovered. The tracks were cut and pulled across onto the new bridge on the Sunday but had not been fully ballasted and aligned so there was a pre-arranged 20MPH temporary speed imposed through the slues and across the new bridge deck for a week until the follow-up work due on the next Sunday. At about 7.45 on the Monday morning a well-loaded 6-car Class 116 on which my assistant was travelling took the temporary alignment at over 60MPH, fortunately without damage or injury. 

At the time we had been working on advance signing PSRs (Morpeth Boards) so following this incident we submitted a suggestion for providing TSRs with AWS using a Shed Test Magnet and clamp with packing which I designed for fitting it to any type of sleeper in a few minutes. It was turned down as being impractical and no real benefit just before the Nuneaton incident. Even if accepted I doubt if it would have been implemented in time to prevent that crash but some days you just have to sit on your hands and bite your lip.

[Wickham Green]

 

However right from when railways were invented there has NEVER been an 'amber' signal .......................

There was a TV programme a few years ago - a cab ride in a certain well known steam loco with a sort of north-of-the-border name running on a lengthy well known preserved railway of Western heritage - and the young fireman called 'AMBER' across to his driver whenever he saw a signal at caution ahead ................. my god, did I CRINGE every time !!! ............................................................. semaphore signals to boot !

[martin_wynne]

and the young fireman called 'AMBER' across to his driver whenever he saw a signal at caution ahead

 

But I have heard "A yellow light showing Amber".

 

There is a common belief that the word Amber means Caution or Warning, not a description of a colour. It's not a word often used in everyday language as a colour -- who has seen an "amber" Lego brick or an "amber" egg yolk or a tin of "amber" paint?

 

In fact Amber is "a yellow or yellowish-brown hard translucent fossil resin derived from extinct coniferous trees that occurs in Tertiary deposits and often contains trapped insects."

 

Martin.

[Hobby]

To make some of our enthusiasts feel a little better I'll relate the story of when I had my guards training a couple of decades ago. As an enthusiast since I was a kid when steam engines were around I thought I had a decent knowledge of railways. On that basis I was a little too cocky when doing the PTS training.

 

I was quickly brought down to earth by our trainer an old hand who started in the 60s. After that I was a lot more careful and he must have noticed as he used me to help him explain stuff to those who knew nothing about railways. For those people learning the jargon and understanding why things were done certain ways was a nightmare. For those just used to roads the way things are done in the railways can seem very illogical at times!

Edited November 30, 2018 by Hobby