What happens when a train misses a stop?

[Jim Martin]

This question was inspired by a specific incident which occurred during yesterday's chaos on the WCML, but it's not intended as a knock on any particular member of rail staff. I can see a whole range of detailed scenarios which could have occurred, so I'm more interested in the general principles employed than pointing the finger of blame.

 

Yesterday's 14:37 from Watford Junction to Birmingham (a Virgin WC service which starts at Euston) was among the many trains cancelled. The station announcements at Watford said that the next service to Birmingham would probably be the 15:37 (again, a VWC Euston-Birmingham train: very few London Northwestern trains appeared to be running, and those that were weren't stopping at Watford) but that they were trying to arrange with Virgin's operations control for a train to make an additional stop to pick up passengers for the West Midlands. After a little while, they announced that a Euston to Edinburgh train would be stopping. This was the 9S80 14:43 Euston-Waverley via Birmingham, which magically became the 14:55 Watford-Edinburgh.

 

Without going into all the details, this train flew through the station at undiminished speed at 15:02, with the announcement that "the next train at platform six will be the 14:55 Virgin Trains service to Edinburgh, calling at Milton Keynes Central, Coventry.." being cut off in mid-flow and replaced by someone saying that "we apologise to passengers waiting at platform six; the 14:55 to Edinburgh has failed to stop at the station".

 

Clearly, this could have been anything from the driver forgetting to make a stop that wasn't part of the normal running of the train, right through to the staff at Watford (an LNW-run station) not actually having Virgin's agreement to stop the train at all, but thinking that they had. What I'm interested in is how the process plays out here. Judging from the subsequent running of 9S80, there doesn't seem to have been any big inquest en route (it was stopped at MKC for several minutes, but that's not unusual). 

 

Thanks

 

Jim

[Wickham Green]

This question was inspired by a specific incident which occurred during yesterday's chaos on the WCML, but it's not intended as a knock on any particular member of rail staff. I can see a whole range of detailed scenarios which could have occurred, so I'm more interested in the general principles employed than pointing the finger of blame.

 

Yesterday's 14:37 from Watford Junction to Birmingham (a Virgin WC service which starts at Euston) was among the many trains cancelled. The station announcements at Watford said that the next service to Birmingham would probably be the 15:37 (again, a VWC Euston-Birmingham train: very few London Northwestern trains appeared to be running, and those that were weren't stopping at Watford) but that they were trying to arrange with Virgin's operations control for a train to make an additional stop to pick up passengers for the West Midlands. After a little while, they announced that a Euston to Edinburgh train would be stopping. This was the 9S80 14:43 Euston-Waverley via Birmingham, which magically became the 14:55 Watford-Edinburgh.

 

Without going into all the details, this train flew through the station at undiminished speed at 15:02, with the announcement that "the next train at platform six will be the 14:55 Virgin Trains service to Edinburgh, calling at Milton Keynes Central, Coventry.." being cut off in mid-flow and replaced by someone saying that "we apologise to passengers waiting at platform six; the 14:55 to Edinburgh has failed to stop at the station".

 

Clearly, this could have been anything from the driver forgetting to make a stop that wasn't part of the normal running of the train, right through to the staff at Watford (an LNW-run station) not actually having Virgin's agreement to stop the train at all, but thinking that they had. What I'm interested in is how the process plays out here. Judging from the subsequent running of 9S80, there doesn't seem to have been any big inquest en route (it was stopped at MKC for several minutes, but that's not unusual). 

 

Thanks

 

Jim

The Watford staff would have had no input whatsoever other than, perhaps, requesting that SOMETHING would stop to relieve congestion ............ it's unlikely the driver forgot to stop as he would have been aware that things weren't running as normal and should have remembered that he had a part to play - so it's most likely that the message didn't get to him in the confusion. ( If the guard was aware of the out of course stop he couldn't have done anything other than an emergency stop by the time he realised it wasn't gong to happen ....... never a good idea ! )

[Fat Controller]

I believe 'failure to stop' is treated as a SPAD

[Dunsignalling]

Sounds like, for whatever reason, the driver didn't receive the special stop order in time to carry it out safely.

 

John

Edited November 30, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Wheatley]

It depends on who decided it would stop additionally at Watford Jcn (which the station staff might have requested but that's a Control decision) and how / whether that was communicated to the driver. Generally, no Special Stop Order - no stop. The inquest for a fail to call happens behind the scenes afterwards.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Wheatley

[Dunsignalling]

I believe 'failure to stop' is treated as a SPAD

They are if scheduled stops are missed (at least by most TOCs) but there valid reasons, other than driver error, why an additional stop order might not be implemented.

 

John

Edited November 30, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Talltim]

[iands]

I believe 'failure to stop' is treated as a SPAD

 

Which category of SPAD would that fall under Brian?

[The Johnster]

I believe 'failure to stop' is treated as a SPAD

 

It is if a Signal is Passed At Danger, a very serious occurrence.  A train which should have stopped at a station but has run through at line speed under clear signals has not done this, however irritating it is for the waiting passengers!

[Dunsignalling]

It is if a Signal is Passed At Danger, a very serious occurrence.  A train which should have stopped at a station but has run through at line speed under clear signals has not done this, however irritating it is for the waiting passengers!

Completely agree. Using a disciplinary procedure designed to deal with a serious safety breach for a much lesser offence is way over the top IMHO.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Which category of SPAD would that fall under Brian?

It's only used for disciplinary purposes not operationally reportable as Cat A, vs Cat B, but some TOCs operate on a "two strikes and you're out" basis with respect to SPADS so the consequences for the driver can be dire.

 

John

[phil-b259]

Completely agree. Using a disciplinary procedure designed to deal with a serious safety breach for a much lesser offence is way over the top IMHO.

 

John

 

A train failing to stop at a station its scheduled to do so (whether that be a last minute request due to an incident or when ordinarily timetabled to do so) is NOT called a SPAD by Network Rail. A SPAD refers to signals NOT STATIONS. Obviously the TOC will have its own procedures to cover this but they are dealt with internally by the TOC and involve no-one else and are not part of the railway wide 'rule book' / procedures.

 

There is in fact no such thing as 'A SPAD' anyway - a SPAD is always defined as a 'Category A SPAD, A Category B SPAD, etc so as to accurately capture the cause (i.e. could it have been avoided by the driver or not).

 

A SPAD occurring due to a piece of trackside equipment failing and putting a signal back to red in front of the driver is naturally a very different thing from a SPAD where the driver attempts to drive past a signal which has always been at red as they approach it. Similarly a SPAD that occurs as a result of railhead contamination or a train defect will be treated differently from a SPAD where a driver was going too fast to stop before passing the signal.

Edited November 30, 2018 by phil-b259

[iands]

A train failing to stop at a station its scheduled to do so (whether that be a last minute request due to an incident or when ordinarily timetabled to do so) is NOT called a SPAD by Network Rail. A SPAD refers to signals NOT STATIONS. Obviously the TOC will have its own procedures to cover this but they are dealt with internally by the TOC and involve no-one else and are not part of the railway wide 'rule book' / procedures.

 

There is in fact no such thing as 'A SPAD' anyway - a SPAD is always defined as a 'Category A SPAD, A Category B SPAD, etc so as to accurately capture the cause (i.e. could it have been avoided by the driver or not).

 

A SPAD occurring due to a piece of trackside equipment failing and putting a signal back to red in front of the driver is naturally a very different thing from a SPAD where the driver attempts to drive past a signal which has always been at red as they approach it. Similarly a SPAD that occurs as a result of railhead contamination or a train defect will be treated differently from a SPAD where a driver was going too fast to stop before passing the signal.

 

That was my understanding Phil, which is why I asked the question in post #8. Wasn't sure if I'd missed yet more new "definitions". That said, I thought we now had Cat A1, A2, A3, A4, and SPARs, rather than Cat A, Cat B, etc.?

[Banger Blue]

Although most people still refer to Cat B, Cat C etc, I believe only a Cat A SPAD is still officially referred to as such. Anything else is simply an ‘Operational Incident’.

 

Although as mentioned above, if a Signal has been passed at Red but the Driver is not at fault (e.g a change of aspect caused by a signalling fault) I have seen them referred to as SPAR.

[Phil Bullock]

Once had a problem in this area too...

 

Special train to exhibition at Olympia, picked us up at Milton Keynes

 

And guess what! On the way back it hammered through Bletchley, still running fast as we approached MK .... and then it was gone! Had to stop at Wolverton where the MK contingent baled out - station had closed for the night and was locked up, the next south bound stopper had to pick us up and return us to MK.

 

In retrospect should I have pulled the cord....???
 

Phil

[iands]

Although most people still refer to Cat B, Cat C etc, I believe only a Cat A SPAD is still officially referred to as such. Anything else is simply an ‘Operational Incident’.

 

Although as mentioned above, if a Signal has been passed at Red but the Driver is not at fault (e.g a change of aspect caused by a signalling fault) I have seen them referred to as SPAR.

 

Except Dougie, the National Operating Procedures states Cat A1, A2, A3, A4 and SPARs.

[newbryford]

I won't mention his name, but if he reads this, he will know who he is (He hates the word T******h, so I've edited it...................)

 

XC have irregular stopping patterns and not all trains stop at all stations, particularly between Derby and Birmingham.

This particular driver remembered a few seconds too late that T******h was the next stop and despite heavy braking, overshot and ended up with half of the last vehicle next to the platform.

No signals were passed at danger.

He called the signalman to obtain authority to reverse, which was duly obtained.

He then did the "walk of shame" through the train to reach the rear cab and reverse the train back into the platform.

 

Only a couple of minutes delay. Yes, his boss "had words" and that was it.

It's not the first time that XC have overshot T******h

 

This isn't him on this video.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Davexoc]

I remember catching an up HST at Swindon in the 80s, which IIRC was non-stop, but on this particular day was announced as additionally stopping at Reading. I can only assume that even though we were signalled through the platform, that the driver forgot and the guard somehow intervened. We ended up almost passing through, but did stop then set back into the platform at Reading having half passed the signal at the end of the platform.

[Banger Blue]

Except Dougie, the National Operating Procedures states Cat A1, A2, A3, A4 and SPARs.

Just had a look on the RSSB site, I wonder how much money and time was spent on that decision to “rebrand’ the SPAD definitions?

So basically every red signal passed (without Authority) is a Cat A SPAD but then classified A1 or A2 etc etc.

[ColinK]

One of BR’s embarrasing moments was the opening of Sandwell & Dudley station. All the top brass, dignitaries and press were there waiting to catch the first train to stop there. Cameras were rolling as the train approached, but the driver forgot to stop. I remember it hitting the national news. Probably generated more publicity for the station than it would have if it had stopped.

[pharrc20]

My brother was travelling home to Weston-super-Mare on a GWR service from Taunton not so long ago. For some unknown reason the train was not routed via the Weston loop hence did not call at Weston or Weston Milton as booked. In the event passengers for those were asked to alight at Worle and catch the next service back to WsM. Suffice to say he emailed GWR about this and although had not asked for compensation he was sent a £10 travel voucher.

 

As for excursions I once went on one that missed out its booked call on the return journey. I forget which excursion tour it was now but I remember thinking as left Preston we would need to cross over onto Up Slow I think it is to be able to call at Euxton Balshaw Lane. Nope didn't cross over ok next option is Farrington Junc. Nope batted through there. Ooops driver realised and managed to stop train at Leyland to at least allow passengers to alight there. Fortunately there was a local passenger service formed of a 156 heading to Liverpool so a quick word with the conductor of that train allowed the 15-20 passengers to get back home.

 

Cheers Paul

[jonny777]

My brother was travelling home to Weston-super-Mare on a GWR service from Taunton not so long ago. For some unknown reason the train was not routed via the Weston loop hence did not call at Weston or Weston Milton as booked. In the event passengers for those were asked to alight at Worle and catch the next service back to WsM. Suffice to say he emailed GWR about this and although had not asked for compensation he was sent a £10 travel voucher.

 

 

 

Cheers Paul

 

 

That wouldn't have been this Nov 23rd would it? 

 

I only ask because my wife was due to catch the 0947 (Paignton to Paddington via Temple Meads) that morning from Nailsea and, in order to prevent her freezing on the platform for any longer than necessary I was monitoring the train's progress on RTT diagrams before giving her a lift to the station. 

 

The previous local stopping service from Taunton was running 30 minutes late for reasons unknown, and left Taunton ahead of the HST which had caught it up by Burnham; and I wondered just how late the 0947 was going to be if it waited for the DMU to stop at Weston, Weston Milton, Worle and Yatton before getting to Nailsea. I even wondered if the HST would be allowed to miss out the Weston stop and overtake the local train using the loop. 

 

However, to my surprise it was the local service which by-passed Weston allowing it to miss two stops and recover some of its 30 minute time loss. (I gather it also missed out Stapleton Road and Lawrence Hill on its way to Parkway). The routing via the loop meant that it could be further ahead of the HST while that train stopped at Weston. 

[pharrc20]

That wouldn't have been this Nov 23rd would it?

 

I only ask because my wife was due to catch the 0947 (Paignton to Paddington via Temple Meads) that morning from Nailsea and, in order to prevent her freezing on the platform for any longer than necessary I was monitoring the train's progress on RTT diagrams before giving her a lift to the station.

 

The previous local stopping service from Taunton was running 30 minutes late for reasons unknown, and left Taunton ahead of the HST which had caught it up by Burnham; and I wondered just how late the 0947 was going to be if it waited for the DMU to stop at Weston, Weston Milton, Worle and Yatton before getting to Nailsea. I even wondered if the HST would be allowed to miss out the Weston stop and overtake the local train using the loop.

 

However, to my surprise it was the local service which by-passed Weston allowing it to miss two stops and recover some of its 30 minute time loss. (I gather it also missed out Stapleton Road and Lawrence Hill on its way to Parkway). The routing via the loop meant that it could be further ahead of the HST while that train stopped at Weston.

I asked my brother and he said it was August/September this year.

 

Makes you wonder why they didn't put the local in one platform at WsM then run the HST in other platform and let that go first? Best thing they could do at WsM is to put the bay back in and put a direct connection in from Bristol end to free up main through platforms.

 

Cheers Paul

[Robert Shrives]

WSM - funnily the planned doubling Worle - WSM seems to have been dropped and those of a certain age will remember some of this bit of route was 4 track....  Timetabling through station depends on perfect time keeping with almost all services passing. Thus it is not possible to regulate. The growth and density of traffic is pleasing but we will not now seem much retracking - the Filton bank replacement which parts of the NR monolith regard as "new" is only to allow IEPs to roll down to Bristol TM and and additional benefit is a byproduct.

 

It has to be said that since its opening ,signalling failures apart it has helped XC run better in the morning with 1V44 once a service slaughtered every day due to 2Kxx being run signals ahead now has a good chance of holding its own and even making PPM /charter/ right time at Plymouth.

 

In answer to the OP, if train stops, driver advises signal operator and provided not too far forward and no level crossings to be run over in reverse then authority to set back is likely to be given, if too far or traffic to dense driver may well be instructed to continue forward.  Up to the TOC to sort circulation of passengers back to correct stop.  

 

Authority to Issue a SSO is with the controlling TOC in agreement with NR control. Only occasionally will this be verbal - drivers sensibly like and perhaps need a written instruction - to bat off any delay issues attributed.  What is maddening is that if a TOC institutes and SSO to help passengers from another TOC  then the delay falls with the stopping party not the route cause even if agreement made, It is part of forcing a right time railway regardless of impact on passengers suffering a disrupted journey. It helps passengers further along the route but I am sure they would appreciate the help if it were they who were disrupted!

 

As drivers are no longer to be "buzzed up" due to distraction issues then TM/guard/ conductor can only convey a verbal request at stopping station in rear - also the likely place where SSO will be issued if a staffed station.  Equally for distraction issues it is not good practice to get a signal operator to stop a train to issue advice from his control that has originated from a TOC control.

 

Stations who off their own bat organise SSOs are getting few and fewer given the delay attribution/ responsible manager "game."  - sod the passenger by the way.... Often a taxi if compliant with TOC rules of supply will be cheaper than delay cost.

 

All good fun - somewhere over the rainbow of privatisation anyway ( rant off button pushed ! )

[caradoc]

The most disruptive 'Fail to Stop' I was ever involved in concerned the Euston-Inverness and Inverness-Euston sleepers, at Christmas time some years ago now. Both trains were booked to stop at Lockerbie for staff purposes, to allow the sleeping car crews to swap over and return home, because the sleepers only ran on 5 nights that week instead of the usual 6 and the crews would otherwise have been stranded at the wrong end of the route for the holiday. The Up train stopped at Lockerbie.....You can probably guess what happened next !

 

Sorting that one out was incredibly complicated and caused huge delay to both trains; IIRC correctly we had to send the Down train back to Carlisle (I can't recall where it ran round and crossed over) to do the change over there, before running round again to continue north.