A New Generation of Model Railway Power?

[melmerby]

One of the problems of the contactless powering and R/C compared to DCC or possibly cab control DC, (unless it is continuous and can also monitor the position of the train,) is that without following the train manually around the layout you have no idea where it exactly is.

You would need some sort of GPS system that it is accurate to a few mm to track the train(s) so that they are actually where they should be.

I have heard rumblings of such a scheme but AFAIK nobody has a pratical working system.

 

Keith

Edited December 5, 2018 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

This will, if it ever appears, emanate from the US IMHO, 'local gps' being clearly a benefit to some of those massive HO or N systems that cover the entire footprint basement of large properties and involve several scale miles of route.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

OTOH, if you go for a scheme of selected plain track powered only, with division by dead sections where there are points, or by specifically created insulating breaks, track section occupancy detection is simple enough to arrange. Good enough for the real railway...

Edited December 6, 2018 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[Robin2]

There seem to be some very strange concepts in this Thread.

 

I have a certificate from the N-Gauge Society in 2013 for a battery powered radio controlled N-Gauge large praire. BPR/C is not some future concept. There is a whole section on this Forum about it.

 

To know where a train is on a layout all you need are suitable detectors - Light Dependent Resistors and Infra Red optical detectors are cheap and have been around for a long time.

 

...R

Edited December 6, 2018 by Robin2

[melmerby]

 

To know where a train is on a layout all you need are suitable detectors - Light Dependent Resistors and Infra Red optical detectors are cheap and have been around for a long time.

 

...R

That tells you something has triggered the device.

That is not the same as knowing where a particular train is.

 

Keith

[Robin2]

That is not the same as knowing where a particular train is.

I assumed some intelligence would be applied to the detector - was I wrong?

 

...R

[Talltim]

It is currently possbile to buy the equipment to create a battery powered loco, charged through the track (AC or DC), controlled wirelessly using the DCC protocols (using your standard DCC controller/booster with a wireless transmitter). The main issue is space inside the body. With switches at the right places in the circuits there is no reason why the same loco couldn't become a standard track powered DCC loco for visiting a friend's layout, or track powered wireless DCC, or even battery powered DCC through the track. (or even, gasp, plain DC!)

There's no reason why you couldn't charge inductively, but why bother when you have two nice current carriers that guide your trains around?

Edited December 6, 2018 by Talltim

[Talltim]

One of the problems of the contactless powering and R/C compared to DCC or possibly cab control DC, (unless it is continuous and can also monitor the position of the train,) is that without following the train manually around the layout you have no idea where it exactly is.

You would need some sort of GPS system that it is accurate to a few mm to track the train(s) so that they are actually where they should be.

I have heard rumblings of such a scheme but AFAIK nobody has a pratical working system.

 

Keith

So far as I can see the only extra positional knowledge you gain from DCC/DC over battery/RC is that the train must actually be on the track when if it is moving. Edited December 6, 2018 by Talltim

[melmerby]

So far as I can see the only extra positional knowledge you gain from DCC/DC over battery/RC is that the train must actually be on the track when if it is moving.

With Railcom (quite commonly implemented*) the system knows what train is where without you having to tell it.

So if there is no track connexion you need something else to do that and opto does not.

 

*many DCC systems and decoders come with it as standard.

 

Keith

[Talltim]

Out of interest, how commonly is Railcom used?

I wouldn’t have described it as a standard part of DCC in most people’s minds.

Edit: Reading the specs, it looks like you still need block detection over and above standard DCC. If you are willing to set that up there’s no reason why you can’t set up a different form of it

Edited December 6, 2018 by Talltim

[Robin2]

With Railcom (quite commonly implemented*) the system knows what train is where without you having to tell it.

It does not happen by magic - there is a computer program.

 

The same sort of system can be implemented using other detectors.

 

...R

Edited December 6, 2018 by Robin2

[Nearholmer]

One thing to watch with battery-based systems is the survival of cells if left un-charged for long periods and/or if subjected to accidental deep-discharge, both of which are much more likely with toy trains than with, say, a phone or a toothbrush, which gets used every day. Even the best of modern cell technologies could disappoint if a loco so-fitted is put in the cupboard and forgotten about for a year or two.

 

Says he, who has wrecked the expensive cells in a battery-powered loco by exactly such neglect, and really should know better given his profession!

[newbryford]

It could simply be the fiddleyard tracks that are powered so trains standing in the yard are recharged whilst other trains are on scene.  This would work nicely on a system where a train goes around once before another train sets off - people running trains round and round would need to add in additional charging stretches on other stretches of plain track.  This is actually achievable, the Zen ZNSSA SUPER high power can move a locomotive 2 meters with power cut so it is a development on this that is required replacing the capacitor with a rechargeable battery.

 

But as mentioned above, it still requires some cleanliness (and reliability [*]) in the rail/wheel/pickup interface to work correctly all the time.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

[*] I've seen some RTR stuff out of the box with only 3 out of 6 pickups working correctly without aftermarket adjustment.

[Robin2]

In this Thread there seems to be a greater focus on problems rather than the opportunities that BPR/C offers. Maybe the problems are just an excuse for ignoring the future

 

It requires a change of mindset. With track power a huge amount of mental and physical effort goes into the electrical connection between track and motor. That often means using up valuable space in a loco body for extra weight - space that could be made available for batteries. And if more traction is required then traction tyres can go on all the wheels of a battery powered loco.

 

Returning locos to a "refuelling" depot for a re-charge or a change of battery would also be very prototypical. And from reading many other Threads battery life is much better than the nay-sayers assume. Personally I don't have the staying power to drive a model train for more than 10 minutes.

 

...R

Edited December 7, 2018 by Robin2

[Nearholmer]

With you on that, other than reliance on ‘rubber’ tyres over adhesive weight ........ such an utterly un-railway-like approach just feels plain wrong to me, but that’s just me!

 

The ultimate, of course, is to build models of electrified railways.

[Zomboid]

On board power (most likely batteries) has a lot to commend it. Like everything else it doesn't work for every application (some of my locos stay in their box for a year between train-pulling sessions and that's not how to keep a battery in good shape), but for some it would be a big improvement.

 

I think for me, the super stay-alive with only the plain line powered (using a big capacitor rather than a battery) would probably be the optimum.

[melmerby]

 

The ultimate, of course, is to build models of electrified railways.

Plenty of people do.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Something that hasn't been mentioned is the environmental effects of batteries and wireless

 

More pollution for the airwaves. Some would argue the air is already over polluted with radio waves.

More pollution from the batteries. Most batteries are made using hazardous procedures and contain toxic & environment damaging materials.

 

Keith

Edited December 7, 2018 by melmerby

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It requires a change of mindset...  if more traction is required then traction tyres can go on all the wheels of a battery powered loco...

 

Yes indeed. First of all that this is a very bad idea, unless operating on straight track only. Even a ten minute operating session allows enough time to get a heavy train onto a small radius curve to see what then happens with this idea.

 

The change of mind set required is to start from state fo the art with track power, and come up with an all around superior package using battery power and some form of wireless control signal. The prize in terms of a system which 'sells itself' is likely to go to the package which offers the greatest flexibility in at least matching and generally extending all the present capabilites of DCC.

[Robin2]

With you on that, other than reliance on ‘rubber’ tyres over adhesive weight ........ such an utterly un-railway-like approach just feels plain wrong to me, 

It is no more wrong than powering a model of a steam or diesel engine with electricity.

 

Some of the trains on the Paris Metro have rubber tyres - prototype for everything

 

...R

[Robin2]

Yes indeed. First of all that this is a very bad idea, unless operating on straight track only. Even a ten minute operating session allows enough time to get a heavy train onto a small radius curve to see what then happens with this idea.

So, just put the tyres on the wheels on one side.

 

There are always solutions when people try to find them.

 

...R

[Nearholmer]

Robin

 

I was very careful how I phrased what I said.

 

I didn’t condemn it, I simply said how I, personally, feel about it.

 

Not sure why it bugs me so much, maybe something to do with it subverting the ability of toy trains to give a feel for the physics of real trains, as opposed to the physics of real road vehicles, possibly. And that rooted in a rather outdated view of toy trains as ‘educational toys’ that foster an understanding of the real world along with whatever else they do.

 

Kevin

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

So, just put the tyres on the wheels on one side. There are always solutions when people try to find them...

Yes, but I already knew that was the answer - and the 'better yet' answer if choosing traction tyres is just one tyre per rigid frame - it was your mindset that had to change.

 

I have found this is broadly true of the r/c battery power enthusiasts, way off the pace comprehending where the 'track power' state of the art stands, and as a result propounding inadequate solutions for general market uptake. I am sure a satisfactory package will be developed in time,  but it looks pretty distant at the moment.

[melmerby]

 

 

Some of the trains on the Paris Metro have rubber tyres - prototype for everything

 

...R

Yes, but they dont run on the rails:

 

 

(Paris 1984)

 

Keith

Edited December 7, 2018 by melmerby

[Robin2]

Yes, but I already knew that was the answer - 

Now we will never know

 

...R