A New Generation of Model Railway Power?

[Sir TophamHatt]

Was just having a think about DC and DCC and wiress charging.

I wonder if there will be a system in the future where the track is no longer powered but some sort of wire (copper tape?) could be stuck between the rails that could sort of charge a small battery in the train, or just feed the motor directly.

 

Would mean less wires, track can be as dirty and grubby as ever and it wouldn't matter.

[melmerby]

Was just having a think about DC and DCC and wiress charging.

I wonder if there will be a system in the future where the track is no longer powered but some sort of wire (copper tape?) could be stuck between the rails that could sort of charge a small battery in the train, or just feed the motor directly.

 

Would mean less wires, track can be as dirty and grubby as ever and it wouldn't matter.

How about an aerial above the track (say 1m above) focussing radio waves onto the layout which could be picked up by individual devices in the locos?

Make the waves strong enough and use them for power (and fry the dummy crew's breakfast on the shovel at the same time?)

 

IMHO the actually power transfer by either method would be minimal, without using sufficient energy to fry the rest of the layout.

 

This place uses inductive power supply for it's model road vehicles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Maket_Rossiya

 

Keith

Edited December 4, 2018 by melmerby

[Oldddudders]

The “green” push towards electric cars means that there is enormous effort being made worldwide to develop better batteries and contactless charging circuits, and there will be spinoff from that which might enable what you seek. Some phones now charge via proximity circuits, as does my toothbrush, presumably using induction.

 

Meanwhile, in our hobby there are already those who put batteries in locos and use radio for control, rather than rely upon wheel/rail contact. Easier in the larger scales, less so in Z and T.

 

For most of us, keeping wheels and rails clean works most of the time.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There are many possibilites now for on board power with charging. Personally I favour the idea of charging on plain track only, all point work electrically dead. Major benefits:

On board power cells can be relatively small, very helpful for small models, and those where space is restricted by need for ballast weight.

Layout builder decides how much of the plain track is powered to suit the planned operation.

It's a no handling recharge technique and goes on 'in background' whenever the layout is operated, so no recharging routines are required. (I really feel this matters, same convenience as current direct rail power, the models are 'ready to go' at all times.)

No return loop problems or polarity switching, so a huge reduction in layout wiring.

Points still have to be powered, but that power could be drawn from the nearest plain track section (and the control signal too) as one option.

 

 

Don't believe those who would tell you that on board power eliminates the need for cleaning wheels and rails. Rail dirt still develops as it is a mechanical product of running, and will eventually affect traction and operational reliability. Significantly less cleaning, yes, but not elimination of cleaning.

[woodenhead]

There are many possibilites now for on board power with charging. Personally I favour the idea of charging on plain track only, all point work electrically dead. Major benefits:

On board power cells can be relatively small, very helpful for small models, and those where space is restricted by need for ballast weight.

Layout builder decides how much of the plain track is powered to suit the planned operation.

It's a no handling recharge technique and goes on 'in background' whenever the layout is operated, so no recharging routines are required. (I really feel this matters, same convenience as current direct rail power, the models are 'ready to go' at all times.)

No return loop problems or polarity switching, so a huge reduction in layout wiring.

Points still have to be powered, but that power could be drawn from the nearest plain track section (and the control signal too) as one option.

 

 

Don't believe those who would tell you that on board power eliminates the need for cleaning wheels and rails. Rail dirt still develops as it is a mechanical product of running, and will eventually affect traction and operational reliability. Significantly less cleaning, yes, but not elimination of cleaning.

It could simply be the fiddleyard tracks that are powered so trains standing in the yard are recharged whilst other trains are on scene.  This would work nicely on a system where a train goes around once before another train sets off - people running trains round and round would need to add in additional charging stretches on other stretches of plain track.  This is actually achievable, the Zen ZNSSA SUPER high power can move a locomotive 2 meters with power cut so it is a development on this that is required replacing the capacitor with a rechargeable battery.

[HonestTom]

Paging Corbs...

[melmerby]

. Some phones now charge via proximity circuits, as does my toothbrush, presumably using induction.

 

 

Toothbrushes have been doing this for a long time, probably the first domestic use of the technology.

It helps because they sit in a docking unit which completes a reasonable transformer magnetic circuit.

 

Keith

[johnlambert]

Was just having a think about DC and DCC and wiress charging.

I wonder if there will be a system in the future where the track is no longer powered but some sort of wire (copper tape?) could be stuck between the rails that could sort of charge a small battery in the train, or just feed the motor directly.

 

Would mean less wires, track can be as dirty and grubby as ever and it wouldn't matter.

Wouldn't the "wire between the track" be just the same as the old Hornby Dublo three-rail system?  Especially if it were feeding the motor directly.

[tomparryharry]

Was just having a think about DC and DCC and wiress charging.

I wonder if there will be a system in the future where the track is no longer powered but some sort of wire (copper tape?) could be stuck between the rails that could sort of charge a small battery in the train, or just feed the motor directly.

 

Would mean less wires, track can be as dirty and grubby as ever and it wouldn't matter.

A bit like Scalextric?

 

D.E. Javu.

[The Johnster]

I planned an onboard drive system for locos back in the 80s, and it may be just as well that I never attempted to build it. based on powered track and conventional DC controllers driving on board servos that controlled a rechargeable PP3 9v battery powered system aboard the loco that fed the drive motor.  I was obsessed with reliable slow running in those days, being the owner of a Lima dmu, 08, 4575 and 94xx.  Some skill in driving would have been required, as the locos would have continued to run when the track power was off, and bringing them to a stand would have required finding the centre off position for the servos or they'd have set off backwards all the time!

 

Locos were to be parked using a single action on/off push switch hidden in the chimney and operated with a cocktail stick.  Wonder why it never caught on; DCC was already available in those days!

 

Some sort of NFC system based beneath the track may well play a part in future developments; it has always been my view that the best place for the power supply to be is aboard the loco, which can then dispense with pickups and, theoretically, be capable of very smooth controlled slow operation.  

[melmerby]

 

Some sort of NFC system based beneath the track may well play a part in future developments; it has always been my view that the best place for the power supply to be is aboard the loco, which can then dispense with pickups and, theoretically, be capable of very smooth controlled slow operation.  

Hence my link to the Russian model site where the road vehicles work precisely like that.

 

Keith

[Joseph_Pestell]

Was just having a think about DC and DCC and wiress charging.

I wonder if there will be a system in the future where the track is no longer powered but some sort of wire (copper tape?) could be stuck between the rails that could sort of charge a small battery in the train, or just feed the motor directly.

 

Would mean less wires, track can be as dirty and grubby as ever and it wouldn't matter.

 

There is already a commercially available system. Bit expensive still but I am sure that it will become cheaper quite soon as technology advances.

[brack]

I can't see why two copper strips between the rails would ever be preferable to using the two existing metal rails. How do you hide two shiny copper strips?

On board power wouldn't need any fancy inductive charging system - apart from exhibitions, does anybody run locos for more than a few hours at a time? You can get a good amount of run time from a small loco and onboard battery.

[runs as required]

I forgot to ask how the road motor vehicles are animated on the Lime St Liverpool exhibtion model when I saw it recently.

dh

[Steamport Southport]

I forgot to ask how the road motor vehicles are animated on the Lime St Liverpool exhibtion model when I saw it recently.

dh

 

I think it's covered in the thread. Possibly near the middle. I think they are Faller system or similar.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33141-lime-street-station/page-1

 

 

 

Jason

[bimble]

I can't see why two copper strips between the rails would ever be preferable to using the two existing metal rails. How do you hide two shiny copper strips?

On board power wouldn't need any fancy inductive charging system - apart from exhibitions, does anybody run locos for more than a few hours at a time? You can get a good amount of run time from a small loco and onboard battery.

 

If the range is enough they could be under the sleepers, out of sight.

[runs as required]

I think it's covered in the thread. Possibly near the middle. I think they are Faller system or similar.

 

Thanks - yes found it : so it is Faller and explained here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3314

Dh

[Ben Alder]

Protocab are working away at this concept.

 

https://www.protocab.com/welcome

[GreenGiraffe22]

Locos that are able to operate on powerless track would be dreams come true! Loose connections are a constant battle on my amateur roundy.

[melmerby]

Protocab are working away at this concept.

 

https://www.protocab.com/welcome

Unfortunately a long way off the totally connexion free loco by the sound of it.

The problem is making a continuously inductive connexion between loco and power source, over varying track layouts, not just at one place where it has to sit until charged.

 

Keith

[RLBH]

I can't see why two copper strips between the rails would ever be preferable to using the two existing metal rails. How do you hide two shiny copper strips?

On board power wouldn't need any fancy inductive charging system - apart from exhibitions, does anybody run locos for more than a few hours at a time? You can get a good amount of run time from a small loco and onboard battery.

Even if only used on a non-running charging track, inductive charging could reduce the need to handle models and thereby damage them.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Recharging without handling - whether achieved by induction, rail contact or magic moonbeams - seems ideal to me on the count of damage reduction on small scale models.

 

Recharging through the plain track rails - which have to be in place for a model railway - seems so natural a solution (minimum incremental cost of kit for a start) that it somewhat baffles me that I have read insistence in the past that this not even be considered for on board battery recharging!

 

The major benefit I see is maintenance of the convenience we already have: in that because the battery can be continuously topped up whenever on plain track with no user intervention of any kind required, the model is always ready to go. The thought of having to monitor charge and take action to recharge over 70 locos does not appeal.

[melmerby]

Recharging through the plain track rails - which have to be in place for a model railway - seems so natural a solution (minimum incremental cost of kit for a start) that it somewhat baffles me that I have read insistence in the past that this not even be considered for on board battery recharging!

It does seem counter intuitive to ignore two excellent conductors of electricity for some electromagnetic or other non-contact (and hence less efficient) form of power transfer.

 

 

 

Hey! While you are are it you could send the control signals as well.

DCC with stay-alive anyone?

 

Keith

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... While you are are it you could send the control signals as well. DCC with stay-alive anyone?

 

The major attraction with not having the control signal superimposed on the track power as DCC does, with what's effectively a huge 'stay alive' on each loco, is that the point work  - and indeed other track sections according to a layout builder's taste - can be electrically dead, and there is no issue with return loops. A layer of complexity eliminated in track construction and maintenance.

 

There is another smaller attraction for me. I would like  to run locos on a  couple of locations with solidly rusted rails, without having to build some specific battery power r/c control traction operated by a different control system. Again this is my 'no downside' want coming into play. The convenience of everything operable from any of  multiple handsets is a major tick in the DCC box.

 

Any such 'rechargeable power pack on board' based system has a high performance expectation threshold to exceed in my opinion. DCC delivers immaculate running reliability for a little effort in systematic dirt elimination, and I have never yet found 'stay alive' to be necessary. For me to move on, I would be looking for the above advantages with no downside.

[The Stationmaster]

Locos that are able to operate on powerless track would be dreams come true! Loose connections are a constant battle on my amateur roundy.

 

A chap I knew back in the 1980s had a large 00 layout (in a barn) with separate Driver and Signalmen roles.  The engines were basically off the peg steam outline r-t-r models semi-permanently coupled to a 'battery holder' b vehicles which also handled the radio signals although battery size and life was a problem which meant the engines couldn't move without their attached 'power/control vehicle' as there was no power through the track.  

 

Similar systems were available in the USA back in the 1970s so there's nothing new about the idea just that it is becoming more compact due to changes in battery technology and smaller due to advances in electronics and wire-less transmission systems. And the technological changes are no doubt also reducing prices.