Did any SR BY Parcels Vans run in BR blue?

[Signaller69]

As per title, I know Hornby released their BY van in BR blue, but I'm drawing a blank with photos of the real thing in this livery; I think they were mainly withdrawn earlier than the longer lived PMV's but certainly later than 1970 when there were still examples running in BR green livery concurrent with PMV's in blue.

 

Paul Bartlett's site has none in blue and a Google search trying different wording threw nothing up; my old Larkin book suggests they probably didn't receive blue but it would be nice to know if this was actually the case or not; this would make sense if the authorities deemed them life expired and thus not worth repainting?

 

TIA,

Martyn.

[mike hughes]

As per title, I know Hornby released their BY van in BR blue, but I'm drawing a blank with photos of the real thing in this livery; I think they were mainly withdrawn earlier than the longer lived PMV's but certainly later than 1970 when there were still examples running in BR green livery concurrent with PMV's in blue.

 

Paul Bartlett's site has none in blue and a Google search trying different wording threw nothing up; my old Larkin book suggests they probably didn't receive blue but it would be nice to know if this was actually the case or not; this would make sense if the authorities deemed them life expired and thus not worth repainting?

 

TIA,

Martyn.

I'm pretty certain they did as lasted into mid 70's. The oakwood press gives details

Michael

[Dunsignalling]

Probably, some certainly lasted long enough to get painted yellow when eventually transferred to departmental use.

 

John

[eastwestdivide]

If it's any help, the RCTS books list SR BY still in stock (not departmental) as follows:

1976 = 115

1978 = 75

1980 = 0

 

Edited to add "SR"

Edited December 11, 2018 by eastwestdivide

[Southernman46]

The simple answer is yes ............... saw many during mid - late 70's carriage number collecting ...... although brown brake dust extremely weathered was the general appearance .

 

Also those on the BR Horsham based cable laying trains as Mess & Tool vans survived until the early 90's in olive green

[Flood]

I reckon that Paul Bartlett's photo of S417 is in blue (underneath all the grime) as you can make out white BR style numbers and BY instead of yellow sans serif.

 

Here is my interpretation:

 

 

Note that I've taken the roof vents and battery boxes off. The BYs were reclassified as "Former Brake Vans" in the Carriage Working Appendix between the 1972 and 1973 editions. It may have been around this time that the battery boxes and lighting were removed so they merely became Parcels Vans.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Flood

[Steamport Southport]

According to the Oakwood book they started being repainted blue in 1967.

 

The first withdrawn was 797 in May 1966 and the last to be withdrawn was 713 in August 1978. It seems there was a mass withdrawal in Spring/Summer 1978.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Their use as brake vans in which guards rode would have been very limited after the 1969 single manning agreement which allowed the guards to travel in the rear cab of the loco, but presumably the handbrake remained in the former guard's compartment as I do not remember any of them having outside brake levers.  They must have had handbrakes of some sort.  Not sure about battery boxes and dynamos; parcels vehicles were supposed to be internally lit to enable staff to identify items or postal labels at night, when most parcels traffic ran.  Not that many of them had lights that worked anyway, mind!

 

They were originally steam heated and did not have stoves, unlike the LMS and LNER 6 wheeler BZs, which lasted about the same length of time, and were retained for that reason for the few duties that required a guard to travel in the train.  The steam heating was not used after 1969, and the bags would have been purloined to replace broken ones on other vehicles over time.

['CHARD]

Their use as brake vans in which guards rode would have been very limited after the 1969 single manning agreement which allowed the guards to travel in the rear cab of the loco, but presumably the handbrake remained in the former guard's compartment as I do not remember any of them having outside brake levers.  They must have had handbrakes of some sort.  Not sure about battery boxes and dynamos; parcels vehicles were supposed to be internally lit to enable staff to identify items or postal labels at night, when most parcels traffic ran.  Not that many of them had lights that worked anyway, mind!

 

They were originally steam heated and did not have stoves, unlike the LMS and LNER 6 wheeler BZs, which lasted about the same length of time, and were retained for that reason for the few duties that required a guard to travel in the train.  The steam heating was not used after 1969, and the bags would have been purloined to replace broken ones on other vehicles over time.

 

That's really useful, essential reading for me, Johnster, as my modelling finishes at midnight on 5th Jaunuary 1969!  So pretty much as soon as the sun set on the Waverley route, these were declassified, sort of.  In which case, I don't need to modify mine - and the blue specimen can appear reasonably box-fresh, as it will only have received twelve months or so weathering at the most!

[Fat Controller]

I wish I'd recorded the liveries and numbers of the ones I saw: there were definitely some in BR Blue, but they got dirty very quickly. There is one I do remember being in ex-works blue; S3S, one of the trio built for the Night Ferry, with a 'birdcage' roof and ferry fittings. I saw it late one evening at Swansea High Street, some time in 1972.

[Signaller69]

Thanks for all the replies folks, very useful, so looks like I can get away with using some BR blue paint (which I have) on a Parkside kit, rather than BR coaching stock green (which I don't have!) But may have to ad lib on the numbering front and possibly apply heavy weathering (Or not, as I model c.1970 so probably wouldn't have been excessively dirty).

[Steamport Southport]

Thanks for all the replies folks, very useful, so looks like I can get away with using some BR blue paint (which I have) on a Parkside kit, rather than BR coaching stock green (which I don't have!) But may have to ad lib on the numbering front and possibly apply heavy weathering (Or not, as I model c.1970 so probably wouldn't have been excessively dirty).

 

I reckon anything running after the mid 1970s would be BR blue and extremely filthy. I'll post a few numbers of the post 1970 survivors later.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited December 11, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[Steamport Southport]

Their use as brake vans in which guards rode would have been very limited after the 1969 single manning agreement which allowed the guards to travel in the rear cab of the loco, but presumably the handbrake remained in the former guard's compartment as I do not remember any of them having outside brake levers.  They must have had handbrakes of some sort.  Not sure about battery boxes and dynamos; parcels vehicles were supposed to be internally lit to enable staff to identify items or postal labels at night, when most parcels traffic ran.  Not that many of them had lights that worked anyway, mind!

 

They were originally steam heated and did not have stoves, unlike the LMS and LNER 6 wheeler BZs, which lasted about the same length of time, and were retained for that reason for the few duties that required a guard to travel in the train.  The steam heating was not used after 1969, and the bags would have been purloined to replace broken ones on other vehicles over time.

 

Some of them had stoves. The one on the Bluebell has (had).

 

 

http://www.semgonline.com/vandw/4wpassbrakes.html

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Very heavy weathering seemed to attach itself to these and similar Ashford NPCCS within a very short time of being released from the paint shop, whatever livery they were carrying at whatever stage of their lives.  A frequent sight was a van whose livery was completely indistinguishable except for a patch showing the number, and nobody ever cleaned the windows.  These are vehicles on which you are fully justified on going overboard with the weathering of!

[The Johnster]

Some of them had stoves. The one on the Bluebell has (had).

 

 

http://www.semgonline.com/vandw/4wpassbrakes.html

 

 

 

Jason

These vans were in circuit working for milk traffic, notably on the LSWR main line.

[Wickham Green]

I wish I'd recorded the liveries and numbers of the ones I saw: there were definitely some in BR Blue, but they got dirty very quickly. There is one I do remember being in ex-works blue; S3S, one of the trio built for the Night Ferry, with a 'birdcage' roof and ferry fittings. I saw it late one evening at Swansea High Street, some time in 1972.

Yes - classified the same ( BY ) as it was a four-wheeled parcels brake .... but a very different vehicle - and, oddly, one which spent most of its life in blue of one shade or another ( and much of that time probably quite presentable blue ! ). 

[Dunsignalling]

These vans were in circuit working for milk traffic, notably on the LSWR main line.

By the time I was taking any notice of it (post-1960), four wheelers of any sort were becoming an unusual sight on SW milk trains.

 

Most seemed to have a stove-fitted Van B, a "Queen Mary" bogie goods brake, or an ex-LMS Stove R.

 

A very small number of the stove-equipped BY vans (only two or four, IIRC) were tightly diagrammed to specific partially-fitted goods workings west of Exeter, and had side-lamp brackets (as fitted to goods brake vans) for the purpose. I think they were needed to cater for a high volume of "smalls" traffic on offer and probably took the place of obsolete "Road Vans".

 

John

Edited December 12, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Steamysandy]

I wish I'd recorded the liveries and numbers of the ones I saw: there were definitely some in BR Blue, but they got dirty very quickly. There is one I do remember being in ex-works blue; S3S, one of the trio built for the Night Ferry, with a 'birdcage' roof and ferry fittings. I saw it late one evening at Swansea High Street, some time in 1972.

It may have also been it which I saw parked in a bay platform at Edinburgh Waverley on one occasion sporting a broken spring!

[Signaller69]

Very heavy weathering seemed to attach itself to these and similar Ashford NPCCS within a very short time of being released from the paint shop, whatever livery they were carrying at whatever stage of their lives.  A frequent sight was a van whose livery was completely indistinguishable except for a patch showing the number, and nobody ever cleaned the windows.  These are vehicles on which you are fully justified on going overboard with the weathering of!

Agreed, there have been several colour photos I have seen (such as Paul Bartlett's) where the only clue to the underlying colour has been the colour and style of any lettering / numbering visible.

[The Johnster]

Apropos, sort of, as it happened I visited my local model railway shop yesterday and impulse purchased a Bachmann PMV, late Southern Railway green liveried with white wall tyres.  It won't be looking like that for long!

[HGT1972]

Two that were in blue were S707 (filthy rail blue by February 1978) and S713, which was rail blue when withdrawn during August 1979 (and the last of the type in service). I'm sure they were others but as everyone has noted, they were generally all that rather unpleasant road dust brown!

 

Hywel

[The Johnster]

Apropos, sort of, as it happened I visited my local model railway shop yesterday and impulse purchased a Bachmann PMV, late Southern Railway green liveried with white wall tyres.  It won't be looking like that for long!

 

Heavily weathered, re-wheeled to save me having to paint out the white walls, and in service.  You can just about read the numbers and the 'Southern Railway' sunshine lettering but there is a generally green cast to it which contrasts with my crimson liveried but also pretty heavily weathered version.

[Signaller69]

Two that were in blue were S707 (filthy rail blue by February 1978) and S713, which was rail blue when withdrawn during August 1979 (and the last of the type in service). I'm sure they were others but as everyone has noted, they were generally all that rather unpleasant road dust brown!

 

Hywel

Very useful info thanks!