RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted June 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 12, 2019 59 minutes ago, njee20 said: We need consistent application of penalties, as we saw here. The sport absolutely does not need more penalties, they destroy the racing. You don't want drivers driving cautiously, that's really boring. You want drivers on the edge. It's bad enough they have to manage fuel and tyres, let's not make overtaking far harder, I really can't get my head around anyone thinking that every single trip off the track deserves a penalty. What's the magnitude of the penalty? 5 seconds regardless? Dependant on time off the track as you say? So if you spin, and take 10 seconds to get back on do you get a bigger penalty than someone who's gone too deep following an overtaking attempt? What if you actually do gain an advantage? Same penalty? If so you make take a strategic penalty to get past someone who has an "accidental" one. How confusing would a race be if multiple drivers have penalties, and are close together, it would be unwatchable, and hard enough for the drivers; "Ok Kevin, we're behind Lance, who's got 3 seconds of penalties, and we've got Nico behind us, who's got 8 seconds, so we don't need to worry about him, but 5 seconds up the road is Kimi, who's got 4 seconds, so you need to close him down. You could cut this corner, you'll get ahead and only get a 2 second penalty. Oh, hang on, Lance has run wide, he's now got 7 seconds of penalties, and Lewis is out front, but he just had a major trip off, so has 28 seconds of penalties, so you could win this, if you just finish 14th on the road". Sounds fun. But the bookmakers would love it. Liberty's desire to 'monetise' the sport does not exactly preclude the introduction of such a nonsense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted June 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 12, 2019 What's that crashing sound? Ahhhh, viewer numbers hitting the floor! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERandBR Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 I thought viewing figures were already plummeting due to the decrese in free to view coverage 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted June 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) To be honest there is only the level of complaint and recrimination that we are seeing because it was Vettel and a Ferrari. Had this been earlier in the race and Hamilton was behind a Haas or a Racing Point after a pit-stop and this happened, I believe there would be no complaints about a penalty. Consistency cannot take into account who the drivers are, the world championship and where they finish the race. As for the racing spectacle, Hamilton knew he was unlikely to overtake Vettel without a mistake being made - Canada is bad place for overtaking. He also known Vettel is liable to make mistakes and pushed Vettel hard and he made that mistake. Should there be no punishment for such mistakes, would we have seen that fight at all? Possibly not. Hamilton has admitted that he was struggling to get past because the Ferrari was too strong in the run through the main DRS zone. Given the protecting of brakes, fuel and tyres that now go on, we may well have seen Hamilton just back of to protect the car for the next race - as has happened at other races. I have enjoyed F1 for many years (40+ years) and yes it has had its ups and downs, complaints and issues. Yet, still a very significant number of people still watch it, and even more so would if it was free-to-air. It isn't doing that much wrong. Roy Edited June 12, 2019 by Roy Langridge 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Reminded me a bit of Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide 94. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 14 hours ago, Kingzance said: Earlier in this thread, a contributor wrote about “Ferrari bashing Merc Tiffosi” or words to that effect. In the past, FIA has been deemed synonymous with a Ferrari International Assistance so the arguments are likely to be biased according to which team you prefer / support. More cogently, we have these issues because we have seen motorsport become much safer. Anyone remembering the catch fences comprising wires strung between vertical wooden poles would say that safety has rightly improved. Perhaps an automated penalty issuing system whereby the car flags up an off-course event and time is added for the duration of that “escapade” would remove the questions of unequal penalties? We certainly have the technology to implement that. Clerks of the Courses at drivers’ briefings need to stress that the grey stuff is for the drivers and anything beyond the white lines is not. Drivers show far more caution when the surface is wet! I think there are too many variations in circumstances for automatically penalising a driver for exceeding track limits to work - for example, had such a system been in use in Canada, Lewis would have been penalised for going off the track to avoid Vettel! 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted June 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2019 8 hours ago, RJS1977 said: I think there are too many variations in circumstances for automatically penalising a driver for exceeding track limits to work - for example, had such a system been in use in Canada, Lewis would have been penalised for going off the track to avoid Vettel! Spot on, and that is why the current stewarding system is a good one. Yes, occasionally, as stewards we will get decision that are maybe a little odd. I am still convinced in this instance the right call was made. I like Martin Brundle's commentary, but for me he is wrong this time. He often bangs on about drivers who exceed track limits should be punished and the white line are there for a reason - well Vettel was. I know Vettel didn't deliberately exceed track limits in this instance, but he also didn't drive in a manner to stay within them. Roy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 For those who don't know a large portion of much better racing is being shown live on Quest this weekend !! Enjoy !! Le Mans 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) Sorry but thats highlights only viewing. I couldnt think of anything worse than watching that race live! BTW there's a good article by Palmer on the BBC f1 web page about the Vettel incident that sums it up well for me. I'm on my phone so haven't figured how to do a link so you'll need to get there yourselves! Edited June 13, 2019 by Hobby 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friscopete Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 The lower formula guys are getting track limits banged into their heads at an early age now ,They lose a lot of points and trophys for going over them as its such close racing unlike much of F1. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Hobby said: Sorry but thats highlights only viewing. I couldnt think of anything worse than watching that race live! BTW there's a good article by Palmer on the BBC f1 web page about the Vettel incident that sums it up well for me. I'm on my phone so haven't figured how to do a link so you'll need to get there yourselves! Not according to here https://www.questod.co.uk/live/quest/2019-06-15 I posted the Palmer link a couple of days ago . Perhaps you missed that post . Yes a good article. Edited June 13, 2019 by micklner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted June 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2019 1 hour ago, micklner said: For those who don't know a large portion of much better racing is being shown live on Quest this weekend !! Enjoy !! Le Mans 1 hour ago, Hobby said: Sorry but thats highlights only viewing. I couldnt think of anything worse than watching that race live! Each to his own. With 62 starters in four classes, lapping between 3m20-ish (LMP1) and 4m-ish (LMGTEam) at best, there is constant overtaking, and with everyone pitting once an hour at least, and pitstops that allow far fewer personnel than F1, including refuelling, there is a great deal going on all the time. Sherry & I have Members' Grandstand seats as usual. Booked (and printed!) last October, but among the very last left then, on the third day of booking. Toyota should win, but the other three classes are very open. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) As you say each to their own. I was brought up with stock cars where there is far more overtaking and you can see all of the action. Unlike Le Mans or F1! Of the two ( f1 or le mans) I'd still rather watch f1 I can't see anything in LM at all. Edited June 13, 2019 by Hobby 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 Sebastian Vettel: Ferrari will not appeal against penalty from Canadian GP Ferrari is believed to be considering challenging the penalty via a different approach - a right to review the incident. ... the rules ... dictate that certain penalties - of which this is one - are not subject to appeal. So seeking a right to review could circumnavigate the technical restrictions on their ability to appeal. Ferrari has until about 22:00 BST on Thursday to formally give notice that they are withdrawing the appeal. Seems a bit odd that they have to formally give notice of withdrawing an appeal that the rules didn't allow them to lodge in the first place. Surely the FIA just said "on yer bike" and that was it? Any public announcement of their decision and route forward is likely to come after that. Ferrari has 14 days after the incident to decide whether to launch a challenge to the decision under this different route. That takes them up to the day of the French Grand Prix on 23 June. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozzer models Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 Honda to upgrade Red Bull and Toro Rosso engines for the French Grand Prix https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48687428 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 6 hours ago, mozzer models said: Honda to upgrade Red Bull and Toro Rosso engines for the French Grand Prix https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48687428 Of note is that this means Verstappen (and Gasly) will almost certainly get grid penalties later in the season. I see the Red Fellas are saying the Ricard circuit does not suit them. Interesting, when testing has been undertaken there for many years? Perhaps this means another Silver Shakedown (unless Honda have been more than modest), or that Ferrari have at last learned how to bluff?? Maybe Williams can take them this time....... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted June 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2019 Ferrari Appeal thrown out: Quote "There are no significant or new elements which were unavailable to the parties at the time". 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted June 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2019 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48720454 Quote Ferrari presented a number of what their deputy technical director Laurent Mekies said were "quite overwhelming" new evidence. This included analysis of telemetry from Vettel's car, on-board camera views from both cars; a camera facing towards Vettel's face during the race; GPS analysis of the cars' trajectories; and a witness statement from Vettel himself. But stewards ruled that all were available either before the end of the race; or were not new and significant. Vettel had been found guilty of rejoining the track in an unsafe manner and forcing Hamilton to take avoiding action. In other words it did not matter whether Vettel deliberately impeded Hamilton or not, that was irrelevant to the breach of the rules. He rejoined in an unsafe manner and caused another car to take action to avoid a collision. Hamilton might find himself on the other end of this ruling after this afternoon's incident with Verstappen ..... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 Nope stewards have cleared him. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted June 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2019 44 minutes ago, Hobby said: Nope stewards have cleared him. And when you watch the onboard video from Verstappen’s car, you can see exactly why. As for Ferrari’s “overwhelming new evidence” if that had been in football, they would have had the penalty increased for a frivolous appeal. I can’t believe they tried to use a pundit’s analysis! Roy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 4630 Posted June 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said: As for Ferrari’s “overwhelming new evidence” if that had been in football, they would have had the penalty increased for a frivolous appeal. I can’t believe they tried to use a pundit’s analysis! Roy Yes, the words 'straws' and 'clutching' spring to mind. Vettel would be better off trying to drive a superior race and win, legitimately, on the track. And Ferrari would do well to learn that sometimes, politically and strategically, it might be more fruitful to fight a more winnable battle, with more comprehensive and supportive evidence, on another day. Although I do appreciate that that might not be the Italian way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted June 21, 2019 Share Posted June 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Roy Langridge said: As for Ferrari’s “overwhelming new evidence” if that had been in football, they would have had the penalty increased for a frivolous appeal. Yes, as things stand, it was worth Ferrari asking for a review - they might have got the decision overturned, but it didn't cost them anything if it wasn't.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted June 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2019 6 hours ago, RJS1977 said: Yes, as things stand, it was worth Ferrari asking for a review - they might have got the decision overturned, but it didn't cost them anything if it wasn't.... But they are setting a dangerous precedent by applying a rule that isn’t used. Go back a couple of years when Vettel drive into Stroll on the cool-down lap. The stewards declared it as being nobody ‘s fault. Later evidence showed it was clearly Vettel to blame (despite his ranting to the contrary). Williams did not go running to the FIA to ask for a review, after this they may now do so. We don’t want/need a situation where race steward decisions are reviewed all the time, that will kill the sport just as much as people fear the occasional harsh penalty will. Roy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted June 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2019 Desperate people do desperate things. Vettel screwed up and then took too much track coming back on. Ferrari, faced with yet another failure to win, took the appeals route to get some cred back. With loadsa dosh being paid by sponsors, and the honour of Italy - so the tifosi would tell you - riding every km on the red cars, any glimmer of hope is grabbed with both hands. Another change of manager seems likely before too long. 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted June 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2019 Binotto admits to "disappointment", while Vettel, hero of the hour, not, wants to burn the rule book. FFS. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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