TrainController UK price hike

[WIMorrison]

All I know is I can get it through MCBs but it won’t go through the main panel ELCB RCD

[melmerby]

All I know is I can get it through MCBs but it won’t go through the main panel ELCB RCD

Way

 

ELCB & RCD are two of a kind for providing protection against earth leakage currents.

 

The voltage type measures the voltage generated when there is a leakage, hence the earth connexion. They are not infallible as the earthing has to be perfect in the first place and can also give false fails

The current type (RCD) has an out of balance detecting current transformer through which both live & neutral pass.

If there is no leakage the sense coil has no output. If a current flows asto earth there will be unbalance and the sense coil produces an output which triggers the breaker. (IIRC Maximum of 30mA to trigger in less than 100mS)

The voltage type (the older of the two) is now obsolescent.

Both can suffer from mechanical or electrical problems associated with any sort of relay.

 

MCBs are the overload protectors - in effect resettable fuses!

 

My broadband passes through 3 RCDs and all that cabling but is still about 50% of what it started at.

 

Let's get back to TrainController

 

Keith

[Andymsa]

Mr freiwald has posted that the current process of purchasing will be permanent. Even has the audacity to say uk users are happy with the current situation

[WIMorrison]

Oh dear, I buy lots of stuff from Germany/Austria/Netherlands (due to my choice of modelling  ) and he is the only person I have found who has an issue with the UK - I agree that postal rates - especially from Germany are high and always have been but no-one has had an issue trading with UK.

[Andymsa]

39 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Oh dear, I buy lots of stuff from Germany/Austria/Netherlands (due to my choice of modelling  ) and he is the only person I have found who has an issue with the UK - I agree that postal rates - especially from Germany are high and always have been but no-one has had an issue trading with UK.

 

I have asked a well know shop in Germany if there be any issues after brexit and the reply was there be no issues. As this is an open forum it be inappropriate to make further comments on mr freiwald, but those who have had dealings with him will know what I mean.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Andymsa said:

Mr freiwald has posted that the current process of purchasing will be permanent. Even has the audacity to say uk users are happy with the current situation

Based his statement on info from HMRC.

However if we ended up with a customs union as suggested by some people the VAT/Customs has to be done on EU rules not Herr Freiwald's or HMRC.

[Andymsa]

4 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Based his statement on info from HMRC.

However if we ended up with a customs union as suggested by some people the VAT/Customs has to be done on EU rules not Herr Freiwald's or HMRC.

 

Yes I fully agree, but seems to be jumping the gun as no one knows at this time what trade agreements will be in place. So I'm not sure what the actual advice that has been received by him only what might happen I guess and he's reacted to that information received.

[melmerby]

48 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

 

Yes I fully agree, but seems to be jumping the gun as no one knows at this time what trade agreements will be in place. So I'm not sure what the actual advice that has been received by him only what might happen I guess and he's reacted to that information received.

I do wonder whether the arrangements that have been in place since January are actually lawful under EU rules where discrimination by state for goods and services in not allowed.

Currently until assuming the UK leaves the EU it is still a full member of the EU and should be treated as such.

[Andymsa]

28 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I do wonder whether the arrangements that have been in place since January are actually lawful under EU rules where discrimination by state for goods and services in not allowed.

Currently until assuming the UK leaves the EU it is still a full member of the EU and should be treated as such.

 

I think these arrangements are unlawful. But not the first time he's disregarded EU law.

[Junctionmad]

On 23/03/2019 at 15:06, melmerby said:

I do wonder whether the arrangements that have been in place since January are actually lawful under EU rules where discrimination by state for goods and services in not allowed.

Currently until assuming the UK leaves the EU it is still a full member of the EU and should be treated as such.

While it’s unfortunate , I don’t see anything he’s doing is contrary to EU law. There’s no requirement to have identical pricing or selling practices across the EU. Equally he can choose  who he supplies to or not. He has no obligation to sell everything to everywhere 

 

there are no rules about “ discrimination by eu state “ like you state. Suppliers can charge different pricing in different EU states ( and very commonly do ) , they can impose different distribution methods and restrict availability as they see fit. They can’t of course prevent a retailer in one EU country supplying certain ordinary goods to a consumer in another eu country, assuming the retailer wants to supply across national borders 

 

a manufactuer in the EU is entirely within their rights to actually set pricing on a customer by customer level if they so desire and to restrict distribution to certain geographical Areas as they so desire. what they can’t do is restrict others , ie say their retailers from doing the same 

 

what the Single market rules do , is forbid EU member governments from arbitrarily restricting sales fron other EU countries into their own Domestic marketplace , it does not force a private supplier to harmonize pricing or distribution costs or force them to supply certain EU member states if they do not wish to do so. 

 

If mr frewield wishes to charge more for UK sales he’s entirely within his right  to do so. He cannot however limit a German retailer from reselling to the Uk , ( except in certain product categories )

 

since 2015 vat must now be applied on sales of digital items at the rate of the country of destination , rather then the situation that pertains to physical goods , where vat is  charged at the rate of the country of purchase 

 

equally digital sales vat must now be separated by country and reported to ones own VAT authority on a country by country basis. There is no Deminimis level either 

 

this has put quite a bit of extra work on small software companies 

 

these rules were largely championed by the three large economies  in the EU of which the UK was a leading exponent of this change in the vat rules ( see amazon , Luxembourg etc ) despite the endless false propaganda in the uk , the uk has been a huge promoter and exponent of single market laws and changes to them  , including changes to tax laws , and has been a major lobbying force to extend such laws.  The changes in digital vat being one of them 

 

note that post brexit , if that day actually ever arrives , there will be major changes to sellers in the EU exporting to the Uk, including additional costs of preparing export documentation, the application of different vat rules and different reporting requirements , as equally there will be different rules for importers in the uk, including additional customs costs and the recovery of whatever tax HMRC desires to apply to imports. Any EU retailer stating things will remain the same is talking out their behind. Many small, retailers will not do “ foreign “ exports , the same is true for many smaller UK suppliers too,p, so one can expect that many European retailers that have minimal uk sakes might withdraw fron that market , vice versa will be true also 

 

Obviously should the withdrawal agreement pass or the UK remains inside the customs union then the status quo will largely prevail 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Junctionmad

[Andymsa]

On 31 March 2019 at 04:10, Junctionmad said:

While it’s unfortunate , I don’t see anything he’s doing is contrary to EU law. There’s no requirement to have identical pricing or selling practices across the EU. Equally he can choose  who he supplies to or not. He has no obligation to sell everything to everywhere 

 

there are no rules about “ discrimination by eu state “ like you state. Suppliers can charge different pricing in different EU states ( and very commonly do ) , they can impose different distribution methods and restrict availability as they see fit. They can’t of course prevent a retailer in one EU country supplying certain ordinary goods to a consumer in another eu country, assuming the retailer wants to supply across national borders 

 

a manufactuer in the EU is entirely within their rights to actually set pricing on a customer by customer level if they so desire and to restrict distribution to certain geographical Areas as they so desire. what they can’t do is restrict others , ie say their retailers from doing the same 

 

what the Single market rules do , is forbid EU member governments from arbitrarily restricting sales fron other EU countries into their own Domestic marketplace , it does not force a private supplier to harmonize pricing or distribution costs or force them to supply certain EU member states if they do not wish to do so. 

 

If mr frewield wishes to charge more for UK sales he’s entirely within his right  to do so. He cannot however limit a German retailer from reselling to the Uk , ( except in certain product categories )

 

since 2015 vat must now be applied on sales of digital items at the rate of the country of destination , rather then the situation that pertains to physical goods , where vat is  charged at the rate of the country of purchase 

 

equally digital sales vat must now be separated by country and reported to ones own VAT authority on a country by country basis. There is no Deminimis level either 

 

this has put quite a bit of extra work on small software companies 

 

these rules were largely championed by the three large economies  in the EU of which the UK was a leading exponent of this change in the vat rules ( see amazon , Luxembourg etc ) despite the endless false propaganda in the uk , the uk has been a huge promoter and exponent of single market laws and changes to them  , including changes to tax laws , and has been a major lobbying force to extend such laws.  The changes in digital vat being one of them 

 

note that post brexit , if that day actually ever arrives , there will be major changes to sellers in the EU exporting to the Uk, including additional costs of preparing export documentation, the application of different vat rules and different reporting requirements , as equally there will be different rules for importers in the uk, including additional customs costs and the recovery of whatever tax HMRC desires to apply to imports. Any EU retailer stating things will remain the same is talking out their behind. Many small, retailers will not do “ foreign “ exports , the same is true for many smaller UK suppliers too,p, so one can expect that many European retailers that have minimal uk sakes might withdraw fron that market , vice versa will be true also 

 

Obviously should the withdrawal agreement pass or the UK remains inside the customs union then the status quo will largely prevail 

 

 

 

 

Leaving brexit aside side this is the current eu rule

 

Price discrimination. As an EU national or resident you can't be charged a higher price when buying products or services in the EU just because of your nationality or country

 

here is the link https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-payments/index_en.htm

[Talltim]

it also says

When you buy goods online in the EU, prices may vary from country to country or across different versions of the same website, for example due to differences in delivery costs. However, if you buy goods online without cross-border delivery – such as when you buy something online which you intend to collect from a trader or shop yourself – you should have access to the same prices and special offers as buyers living in that EU country. You cannot be charged more or prevented from buying something just because you live in another country.

Which contradicts your quote

[Andymsa]

16 minutes ago, Talltim said:

it also says

 

 

Which contradicts your quote

 

How does it contradict, a price difference would be due to delivery cost not the actual item. The web site is the same for all customers and is not different across member states. But just for info I am aware he was taken to task some time ago for exactly the same thing and he had to adjust his uk prices because the trading standards for eu got involved.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Andymsa

[Talltim]

Your quote says that things have to be the same price, then the next line says they can be different prices. If that’s not a contradiction...

Delivery prices is given as an example, not the only reason.

Am I right in saying that while the software is a download, it requires a physical licence dongle?

Edited April 1, 2019 by Talltim

[Andymsa]

56 minutes ago, Talltim said:

Your quote says that things have to be the same price, then the next line says they can be different prices. If that’s not a contradiction...

Delivery prices is given as an example, not the only reason.

Am I right in saying that while the software is a download, it requires a physical licence dongle?

 

Its not my quote but the eu's one and there regulations. Yes your correct a dongle is required but the software was the same price regardless of where in the eu you were. But now if you wish to upgrade and have the dongle you are still charged a higher price than the eu. Have a look at the friewald website on there explanation for the price hike,  there are comments that can be made regarding the company and those who have had dealings with them will know what I mean, to say anymore would be not appropriate, but draw your own conclusions from there reasons to increase the price even before we have left the eu. I guess bottem line there are those who have gone to other software like I-train ect or will not be upgrading in the future.

[WIMorrison]

Maybe he is trying to reduce the size of the business so he can retire

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, Andymsa said:

 Yes your correct a dongle is required

You only purchase the dongle once, I still have the one from when I puchased TC 7, all upgrades are done by "re-licensing" the dongle by software download/e-mail code.

Until recently all downloads came from Digital Rivers somewhere in the 'net, under the new scheme all downloads come from...... effectively Digital Rivers but now with a UK presence!

 

 

[melmerby]

48 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Maybe he is trying to reduce the size of the business so he can retire

Well he did cut off half of his US customer base by refusing to sell to states that voted Trump!

Edited April 2, 2019 by melmerby

[Crosland]

The relevant text for EU sales  is

However, if you buy goods online without cross-border delivery

So, if you buy from a seller in country A for delivery in country A you cannot suffer price discrimination because you live in country B.

 

Otherwise a seller can charge different prices for delivery to different countries.

[Junctionmad]

I’m sorry the EU legislation you refer to only applies to discrimination simply on the grounds of EU nationality 

 

ie a polish purchaser buying in Germany cannot be charged a different price then a German customer but only on the basis that they are receiving the goods in Germany just like the German customer 

 

it does NOT mean the polish customer can buy the sane product delivered to Poland or purchase it at the same price from the companies polish web site 

 

for example see the same products on amazon.de and .fr  sites you will notice many different euro pricing for the same product 

[Junctionmad]

On 02/04/2019 at 14:57, Crosland said:

The relevant text for EU sales  is

 

 

So, if you buy from a seller in country A for delivery in country A you cannot suffer price discrimination because you live in country B.

 

Otherwise a seller can charge different prices for delivery to different countries.

Correct , which is as I explained 

 

there is no requirement for a seller to offer the same product across the Single market at the same price 

[Junctionmad]

On 01/04/2019 at 18:53, Andymsa said:

 

How does it contradict, a price difference would be due to delivery cost not the actual item. The web site is the same for all customers and is not different across member states. But just for info I am aware he was taken to task some time ago for exactly the same thing and he had to adjust his uk prices because the trading standards for eu got involved.

You are selectively quoting the regulations 

 

and you are incorrect , I have explained that the anti discrimination applies to your nationality but not to the nationality of the selling site 

[Junctionmad]

The net result is that any supplier can price products for a “ local “ market that differ from other markets , for any reason they like 

 

its common all over Europe to see different pricing structures for identical products in different local markets as suppliers respond to local pricing sensitivities 

 

TrainController have decided , for whatever reason to charge higher prices to supply the product into the UK market place 

 

while it may or may not be a good business strategy , it’s not illegal and is in fact quite common amongst non digital goods 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Junctionmad

[njee20]

So by your logic a German living in the UK should be able to buy at the same price as one in Germany, whilst a British ex-pat in Germany has no right to buy at the same price as those living around them? No way that’s right. It’s based on the country you reside in, not the nationality you identify as. 

 

I agree with Andymsa (and I think Crosland, although you seem to think you agree with him); for digital downloads the price should be the same for all EU member states. The Amazon example is irrelevant as few things are digital downloads and amazon.fr is not the same as amazon.de. Delivery charges can, of course, vary.   

[WIMorrison]

Not more misunderstanding and mistruths about the EU surely?