Steam loco driver position

[stephenharris]

Hi all.

I have returned to 00 guage modeling after a 50 year (yes 50) layoff. This may have been asked before but I can't find anything about it.

My layout will have three locos. A 2-6-2 prairie tank, an 0-4-2 class 14 tank and an 0-6-0 Dean goods. I want to populate the cabs with crews and my question is this. Which side of the loco does the driver occupy for each of the above.

 

Advice much appreciated.

 

Regards. Steve Harris

[F-UnitMad]

Locos of GWR origin like these were right-hand drive. The Driver is on the right hand side of the cab, looking forwards.

Edit: you might like this recent thread on the subject of loco crew:-

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140898-4mm-loco-crew-which-make-and-which-way-round/

Edited January 7, 2019 by F-UnitMad

[DCB]

The GWR locos were right hand drive because most GWR firemen were right handed and it made sense to shovel right handed which meant standing on the left of the footplate.

The other "Big 4" railways adopted left hand drive for absolutely no logical reason what so ever.

The GWR locos are generally referred to in writing by the number of the first of the class, if that number ended in 00 they were referred to as the first two digits and two X's,   for example 14XX,  16XX  60XX etc, if they didn't then the full number was used as in 2251, 5101,   As with everything else there were exceptions, as in the 29XX class, but the small auto tanks were known as the 14XX rather than 14 class though they would be spoken about as "Fourteens," or "Fourteen hundreds"   Castles were sometimes called "Forties"  and the 28XX  "Twenty eights" etc

The Airfix/Hornby 61XX Prairie is a sod to fit a crew into, best bet remove the body, drill the chassis block, stick a couple of spikes in the holes and fit the decapitated heads of some figures onto the spikes. 

[The Johnster]

The Bachmann 45xx and 4575 small prairies are also b*stards to put crews into.  You have to undo the screws holding the bunker to the footplate and then pull the cab forward as far as you can without breaking it  to try and squeeze the crews into place.  I wish manufacturers would give us removable cab roofs!

 

Don't forget that a tank locomotive spends half of it's life running bunker first, which of course alters the 'hand' of the driving and firing positions, though in the case of GW locos the firing is still right handed.  I would also suggest the thread F-Unit linked you to, not just because I contributed to it but because there is a pretty full discussion of the subject which you will find helpful.  

Edited January 8, 2019 by The Johnster

[kevinlms]

The GWR locos were right hand drive because most GWR firemen were right handed and it made sense to shovel right handed which meant standing on the left of the footplate.

The other "Big 4" railways adopted left hand drive for absolutely no logical reason what so ever.

 

Far from being 'No logical reason whatsoever', most railways chose the left hand position for drivers, because the signals were almost always placed on the left, as were most passenger platforms. Much easier for drivers to see what's going on.

 

If the railways had chosen to drive on the right, like most of Europe (except France), then having the driver on the right, like the GWR, Midland & GNR, would be the obvious choice.

[Right Away]

Not a GWR topic, but apart from the final few members of the "N" class which were built in the 1930s, all of the Southern's Maunsell Moguls had right hand drive doubtless following SECR traditions.

 

Considering the total number built/converted after the Grouping that was rather a lot which didn't conform to what by the mid-twenties was becoming the "standard" position vis à vis signal sighting.

 

Nevertheless, generations of footplatemen became adept at firing/driving from either side of the cab right up to the withdrawal of these useful locomotives; some 2 cylinder examples lasting almost to the end of steam on the Southern Region.

 

It is the rich peculiarities and variety of locomotive design which give the subject its strong following many years after the last fires were thrown out.

[The Johnster]

The 'handedness' of the driver's position was much less of a problem in the early days of railways when locomotives had open cabs and lower boilers; the view ahead was pretty good from both sides of the cab and the tall chimneys kept the steam out of the line of sight.  Given the primitive signalling this was just as well...

 

But it meant that each railway had already standardised it's driving position before the larger locomotives and more enclosed cabs of the late Victorian era were introduced.  Big boilered locos from the early 1900s onwards further blocked drivers' view ahead, and by the 1920s the chimneys were less able to clear steam over the tops of the locos and smoke deflectors came in to play; the bigger fireboxes made spectacle plates smaller as well.  But entrenched design philosophy kept the driver's position unaltered; the majority of locos kept the position they were built with until withdrawal.  In one sense it didn't matter; you couldn't see where you were going properly for most of the time anyway, which is why the fireman also had to observe signals.

[Steamport Southport]

Left or right handedness shouldn't have any effect whatsoever on firing a locomotive.

 

The Firehole is in the middle of a backhead that is a usually about five feet wide. The tender or bunker shovelling plate is normally directly behind you. You are shovelling from back to front, not to your side. Unless it's a small tank engine with side bunkers.

 

When firing you are in the middle of a footplate that is about eight foot wide. If the driver is getting in the way then you have every right to hit him with the shovel as he probably shouldn't be there. 

 

You only go to the side for a rest, look out or to play with the injectors, dampers, etc. Usually on the opposite side to the driver. Unless there is somebody else nicking your speck...

 

 

 

Jason

[JeremyC]

In biographies of footplate days there are frequent references to drivers not liking and often preventing firemen from firing with their backs to the driver. I suppose in those days the driver had enough authority to make his wishes stick!

I have also read the only big objection Scottish enginemen had to the Scottish Directors (class D11/2) was they were RH drive, the North British having been a LH drive railway.

Edited January 8, 2019 by JeremyC

[stephenharris]

Hi all.

I have returned to 00 guage modeling after a 50 year (yes 50) layoff. This may have been asked before but I can't find anything about it.

My layout will have three locos. A 2-6-2 prairie tank, an 0-4-2 class 14 tank and an 0-6-0 Dean goods. I want to populate the cabs with crews and my question is this. Which side of the loco does the driver occupy for each of the above.

 

Advice much appreciated.

 

Regards. Steve Harris

Thanks everyone for the wealth of information.  I took the link as advised and will be using some of the figures mentioned.  What amazing detail !!

[michl080]

Far from being 'No logical reason whatsoever', most railways chose the left hand position for drivers, because the signals were almost always placed on the left, as were most passenger platforms. Much easier for drivers to see what's going on.

 

Kevin,

 

chicken and egg? Are the signals on the left side because the driver is on the left or is it the other way around?

 

If the driver is on the right, the signals are as well.

 

:scratchhead:

 

Michael

[Ken.W]

Which side of the loco does the driver occupy

 

An easy way to tell for any loco;

Look for which side of the model the ejector pipe, if it's vacuum fitted (that long one alongside the boiler handrail from cab front to smokebox side), or the reversing lever are on;

Both indicate the Driver's side of the loco

Particularly useful on classes where the position varied on different batches or changed over time.

[Ken.W]

Kevin,

 

chicken and egg? Are the signals on the left side because the driver is on the left or is it the other way around?

 

If the driver is on the right, the signals are as well.

 

:scratchhead:

 

Michael

 

Signals are normally on the left as trains run on the left and on most lines there wasn't room for them between the lines to the right.

 

I think the GW was an exception to this, as the former broad gauge allowed for a wider gap between adjacent lines

[phil-b259]

 

The other "Big 4" railways adopted left hand drive for absolutely no logical reason what so ever.

 

WRONG!

 

As our railways 'drive on the left', it follows that most railway signals are also sited on the left hand side of the track. Having the driver placed on the right hand side of the cab with a large boiler in front of them means its less easy to see the signals. Similarly most stations also have their platforms on the left hand side and thus the driver is not able to see the guard from their side of the cab.

 

Obviously while the Fireman can (and did / does) assist the driver with observing signals and reviving the RA from the Guard, as its the driver that is in ultimate charge of the train having them in a place where they can undertake their duties personally is no bad thing.

 

I understand that with most folk being right handed then the job of a fireman on the GWR may have been 'easier' to master - but its not as though the SR, LNER or LMS found it a serious problem and in any case although poor firing may cause steaming problems, the consequences of those are generally less severe than a SPADed signal....

 

Even today the a big part of reason colour light railway signals are not like traffic lights* (which have the red at the top rather than red on the bottom as on railway signals) is so that the red aspect is closest to the drivers eye line and they have the best possible sighting of it.

 

 

*In tunnels or where main signals have to be mounted on the ground then the situation is reversed and red is put at the top to bring it closer to the drivers eye line.

Edited January 8, 2019 by phil-b259

[Blandford1969]

 

I understand that with most folk being right handed then the job of a fireman on the GWR may have been 'easier' to master - but its not as though the SR, LNER or LMS found it a serious problem and in any case although poor firing may cause steaming problems,

Whichever way round firing there is always a tendency for one corner or the other depending on which handed you are to not get as much coal, meaning firemen had to mentally remember to make sure they did not allow that to happen. 

 

Crews on the LMS / SR and LNER would have in any event had to work RHS and LHS engines, just by the variations in pre grouping engines still in use till the 50's and in some cases later. 

 

Just remember the fireman is not always firing and the driver does not always have his hand on the regulator, which always makes me chuckle.

[kevinlms]

An easy way to tell for any loco;

Look for which side of the model the ejector pipe, if it's vacuum fitted (that long one alongside the boiler handrail from cab front to smokebox side), or the reversing lever are on;

Both indicate the Driver's side of the loco

Particularly useful on classes where the position varied on different batches or changed over time.

On the old Lima LMS Class 4F (the HO one), they made the mistake from presumably looking at various photos of 4F's and so a mixture of RHD & LHD locos. They put a reversing rod on each side on their model!

[kevinlms]

Whichever way round firing there is always a tendency for one corner or the other depending on which handed you are to not get as much coal, meaning firemen had to mentally remember to make sure they did not allow that to happen. 

 

Crews on the LMS / SR and LNER would have in any event had to work RHS and LHS engines, just by the variations in pre grouping engines still in use till the 50's and in some cases later. 

 

Just remember the fireman is not always firing and the driver does not always have his hand on the regulator, which always makes me chuckle.

BR (WR) crews would have the same problem & probably hated it, because the BR standards were all LHD!

[Blandford1969]

BR (WR) crews would have the same problem & probably hated it, because the BR standards were all LHD!

Indeed, the only thing that makes engines hard to fire is the space to swin the shovel, a Super D or a K4 are good examples, where it always felt like there was only one spot you could stand to fire and not hit the ring, your elbow etc. Others like a Std you can fire sitting down, just about. 

[kevinlms]

Signals are normally on the left as trains run on the left and on most lines there wasn't room for them between the lines to the right.

 

I think the GW was an exception to this, as the former broad gauge allowed for a wider gap between adjacent lines

But the wider space on the right, presumably only became available post May 1892?

 

Even I as an LMS fan, know something important affecting the GWR, happened that year!

[HonestTom]

Indeed, the only thing that makes engines hard to fire is the space to swin the shovel, a Super D or a K4 are good examples, where it always felt like there was only one spot you could stand to fire and not hit the ring, your elbow etc. Others like a Std you can fire sitting down, just about. 

 

I was once fortunate enough to be given a driver's experience course on a Schools class, and let me say, having done a bit of firing on that, I have nothing but respect for firemen. It's no easy task propelling a shovel full of coal at high speed into a small opening like that, I jarred my wrist several times.

[GeoffAlan]

But the wider space on the right, presumably only became available post May 1892?

 

Even I as an LMS fan, know something important affecting the GWR, happened that year!

Yes they were forced by government act to see sense and adopt Standard gauge. Which,lets be honest, is too narrow anyway. While 7' 1/4" is maybe as eccentric a gauge as 4'8.5" it has to be admitted, by this LNER family man, Stephenson's choice was too narrow.

[The Johnster]

On the old Lima LMS Class 4F (the HO one), they made the mistake from presumably looking at various photos of 4F's and so a mixture of RHD & LHD locos. They put a reversing rod on each side on their model!

 

This is the dual control driving school version...

[The Johnster]

Indeed, the only thing that makes engines hard to fire is the space to swin the shovel, a Super D or a K4 are good examples, where it always felt like there was only one spot you could stand to fire and not hit the ring, your elbow etc. Others like a Std you can fire sitting down, just about. 

 

Some GW tank engines were notoriously cramped and difficult to fire; 42xx/5205/72xx and 94xx come to mind.  The Swindon rebuild of the Rhymney S class looks as if there wasn't room for a garden trowel, never mind a shovel!  Firing technique is not just a matter of which way round you are facing, though that has a bearing, it is also about having room to swing the shovel to get enough momentum to place coal in the back corners or wherever you want it to go, while balancing on a moving loco that might be throwing you all over the place at any sort of speed. As well as the fire, for which you have to open and close the door at the same time as swinging the Tool Of Power (shove a broom up your *rse and you might as well sweep the cab while you're at it), you've got to keep an eye on the water gauge glass and look out for signals, or back down the train on curves your side of the cab to ensure it is all following you, as well as for the guard's 'tip' that side coming off speed restrictions and the like.  Then you've got to drop the scoop to pick up water every so often unless you're on the Southern, and of course wind it back up in due time.  Towards the end of the journey you've probably got to find time to go in to the tender and shovel some coal forward as well because you've already burned the stuff at the front, just when your driver is caning it a bit to take maximum advantage of recovery time.  Throw in a few big lumps that have to broken up with the pick, and your work is cut out for you!

 

And, on the heavy express or fast freight jobs, there wasn't much room for error or respite; everything had to be done right first time all the time if the needle was not to drop back and pressure, then time, lost.  This was particularly critical on up trains to the big London termini, where not much delay was needed to have accrued over the journey to mean that you'd lost your path into the terminus, and the delay was further compounded.  Delays had to be accounted for by signalmen, guards, and drivers, and if it was your fault they were not backward in coming forward in the matter of saying so...

 

Nor were many 'lesser' jobs much easier; frequent stops made the fire easier to manage, but frequent starts made more of it disappear up the chimney, and on tank engine jobs water was always a worry.  Whatever the work, it was vital to stay 'on top' of it, as if you fell behind the multiple requirements of boiler, signals, water level and supply, looking out, and managing the tender you had very little chance of catching up.

 

I sometimes feel sorry for the firemen on Cwmdimbath, who have to fire the loco hard up a steep bank just before arrival at the terminus and then try to damp the fire down so that the loco does not blow off at the safety valves when she comes to a stand at the station.  Too much and this will be the result, not enough and she'll stall before she gets to the top of the bank; either way your popularity will not be high!

Edited January 9, 2019 by The Johnster

[Nick Holliday]

Whichever way round firing there is always a tendency for one corner or the other depending on which handed you are to not get as much coal, meaning firemen had to mentally remember to make sure they did not allow that to happen. 

 

Crews on the LMS / SR and LNER would have in any event had to work RHS and LHS engines, just by the variations in pre grouping engines still in use till the 50's and in some cases later. 

 

Just remember the fireman is not always firing and the driver does not always have his hand on the regulator, which always makes me chuckle.

The Southern certainly didn't seem to have any preference. They were quite happily building the SECR based Moguls with right hand drive, whilst turning out South Western based left hand drive 4-6-0, including Lord Nelsons, as well as Q 0-6-0's and Schools. I am not sure which way Bulleid swung.

[The Johnster]

AFAIK he was a left hand drive man, which would have been instilled into him during his LNER career, unless you mean something else in which case I have no idea and it's none of our business...

 

I am not conversant with the practicalities of the matter, but it must be fairly difficult to convert the side of a locomotive's driving position, given the reluctance of the LMS, LNER, and Southern to do so to standardise on left hand drive on their pre-grouping acquisitions that were not compliant.  The GW made some effort in this direction in terms of rebuilding the better absorbed and constituent locos with Swindon boilers, which came as right had drive 'as supplied', but the purpose of this was not so much to standardise the drive of the locos as to 'modernise' those that were considered to have a reasonably working life still ahead of them in the interests of standardisation and better boiler performance (it certainly improved the Taff Vale A class).