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LMS coach in Russia?


roythebus
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Brian Hardy of the London Underground Society posted this photo on Facebook. It's a Russian steam loco with what appears to be an LMS coach next to it. Were coaches sold to Russia or were they built there as copies?post-1654-0-48621100-1548019412_thumb.jpg

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Is there a date on the photo?  I merely speculate, but as several British ambulance trains were captured by the Germans in 1940, it is possible that they were pressed into service by the Reichsbahn and used on the Eastern Front on the lines converted to standard gauge, or even re-wheeled to Russian gauge..

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AFAIK a Jinty was in use in the Dresden area in 1953, after being captured by the Germans in 1940.

 

I would have loved to know what The Germans thought of it

There's a post about that somewhere on RMweb, no idea where but it's how I learned about it.

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Is there a date on the photo?  I merely speculate, but as several British ambulance trains were captured by the Germans in 1940, it is possible that they were pressed into service by the Reichsbahn and used on the Eastern Front on the lines converted to standard gauge, or even re-wheeled to Russian gauge..

 

Possibly. But I always assumed the ambulance cars were early LMS with panelled sides and planked ends.

 

 

Answering the Jinty query.

 

Wiki is your friend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD_ex-LMS_Fowler_Class_3F

 

 

Jason

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How prevalent was vacuum braking on the continent at the time?

I'm pretty sure it was fairly common in France, but Germany seems to be a stretch.

 

Mind you in wartime there would've been more pressing concerns than operating swingers I suppose.

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The coach has no brake pipe, no steam pipe and no coupling; the safety chains (?) were presumably an addition.  The state of the 2-10-0 suggests war damage, so I would suggest this is a late war photo probably taken on the Eastern Front. The lettering on the coach end is similar to lettering on some German military equipment/vehicles. I still reckon the only way such a coach could be in DR service at that time would be as a 1940 captured vehicle. Some Period 1 stock was all steel and flush sided but my book on LMS coaches isn't clear as to whether any were converted for ambulance trains.  

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AFAIK a Jinty was in use in the Dresden area in 1953, after being captured by the Germans in 1940.

 

I would have loved to know what The Germans thought of it

 

 

Hmm - Bachmann or Hornby?

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AFAIK a Jinty was in use in the Dresden area in 1953, after being captured by the Germans in 1940.

 

I would have loved to know what The Germans thought of it

 

I don't know about a Jinty but they also found a Dean Goods that was left behind at Dunkirk. They loved it and used it on local trip working. I say local trip working. I believe it was so liked and trusted that it got as far as Vienna.

Back on topic. WD Set 21, formed of former LMS stock, was left behind at Dunkirk and certainly got as far as Hamburg. If you look at the top right of the coach you can see a patch of a different shade. I have a photo of such a coach with a German tailboard fitted and it looks like a variation of a tailboard in the photo. I thought we got the set back in 1945, so a date would be of great interest.

Bernard 

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Brian Hardy of the London Underground Society posted this photo on Facebook. It's a Russian steam loco with what appears to be an LMS coach next to it. Were coaches sold to Russia or were they built there as copies?attachicon.gif50247442_2486132448070484_1109420065788264448_o.jpg

Just  after the war, the British Royal Engineers put a lot of effort into getting the German railways running again using both German and British locomotives and rolling stock. Allan Garraway of Festiniog railway fame describes his time as general manager of the Detmold Military Railway in his autobiography 'Garraway Father and Son'.

 

For instance, British built breakdown cranes were shipped to the continent with at least four fetching up in West Germany despite the German preference for using jacks the put their trans back on the rails.  Quite a lot of British stock was left behind and I can well imagine a 1950s  meeting of Russian and British stock somewhere on the border.

Edited by Dickon
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Not very well up on Russian locos at all but is the loco in the picture a Kriegslok with Russian markings and taller boiler fittings?  The damage seems to be all around the cab with the roof blown off and the side buckled out so maybe the result of some catastrophic tube failure rather than enemy action damage?

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I remember this photo, or a similar one, appearing previously but I'm not sure whether it was on here or Nat.Pres as I use both.  ISTR that the final conclusion was that it was not ex LMS but Prussian or Saxon.  Sorry can't be more exact.

Ray.

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Not very well up on Russian locos at all but is the loco in the picture a Kriegslok with Russian markings and taller boiler fittings?  The damage seems to be all around the cab with the roof blown off and the side buckled out so maybe the result of some catastrophic tube failure rather than enemy action damage?

 

Close, it is a 2-10-0 but a home grown one. CO=SO in western script, standing for Sergei Ordzhonikize, a senior member of the Soviet government in the 1930's, until IIRC he was purged.

 

I doubt if any of these were built or converted to standard gauge, so the photo appears to be somewhere no further west than the Soviet border with Poland, Slovakia or Romania.

 

John.

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Not very well up on Russian locos at all but is the loco in the picture a Kriegslok with Russian markings and taller boiler fittings?  The damage seems to be all around the cab with the roof blown off and the side buckled out so maybe the result of some catastrophic tube failure rather than enemy action damage?

 

It looks like a Ye 2-10-0 of one series or another - i.e. US built for export to Russia during WWI although 200 remained in the USA following the revolution and were regauged and sold to US roads where they were known as 'Russian Decapods'

 

The domes are correct for a Ye as are the coupling rods and some of the visible pipework. (N.B. the Russian designation was not Ye as such, that is an anglisication of the Russian designation for the various classes.  There is some info on this Wiki link - yes, I know but other photos suggest it to be a Ye of some sort) -

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_locomotive_class_Ye

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I'm 99% certain the coach is LMS design. European stock usually had more circular roofs than British stock. 

 

Regarding the braking, I'm sure European railways had more or less standardised on air brakes at an early stage of railway development. I know a few Swiss mountain railways that use vacuum brake. What is missing from the ends is the standard RCH jumper for carriage lighting controls. 

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How prevalent was vacuum braking on the continent at the time?

I'm pretty sure it was fairly common in France, but Germany seems to be a stretch.

 

Mind you in wartime there would've been more pressing concerns than operating swingers I suppose.

France was air-brake, as was most of the rest of Europe; the most noticeable exception being Spain, which used vacuum brakes until fairly recently.

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Not very well up on Russian locos at all but is the loco in the picture a Kriegslok with Russian markings and taller boiler fittings?

It's a CO18 (SO18) class. 489 were built at Voroshilovgrad Locomotive Works between 1939 and 1946. The captured Kriegsloks were TЭ (TE) class.

 

Cheers

David

Edited by DavidB-AU
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Close, it is a 2-10-0 but a home grown one. CO=SO in western script, standing for Sergei Ordzhonikize, a senior member of the Soviet government in the 1930's, until IIRC he was purged.

 

I doubt if any of these were built or converted to standard gauge, so the photo appears to be somewhere no further west than the Soviet border with Poland, Slovakia or Romania.

 

John.

Looks like this:

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Steam_locomotive_SO_18-3100.JPG/1280px-Steam_locomotive_SO_18-3100.JPG

 

The next one numerically.

Keith

Edited by melmerby
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