Halts as Termini

[adb968008]

Thanks.

I was pulling your leg, though.

I got that

I was just being informative.

[Nearholmer]

The logic, I would guess, is that if the track was continuous, there would need to be other means to ensure that two trains couldn't bump into one another; detection, interlocking, signalling, all sorts of expensive and failure-prone things. 

[The Stationmaster]

It qualifies, if it was the terminus of s service, and a halt, when the term ‘halt’ was still current, which I think was pre-1967.

 

PS: is there a train, trapped by buffers at Ormskirk and Kirkby, shuttling to and fro, with no means of escape, I have to ask?

 

Exactly the same happened at Penarth following rationalisation - but it was still a partially staffed station at that time.  I think your 1967 time limit is probably a good guiding point although by then quite a few WR branch termini had been reduced to 'basis railway' status with no, or very limited periods of, staffing but they were never called 'halts' although that is effectively what they became.

 

Old Ynysybwl Halt was not the terminus of the branch until the final section beyond it, to Mynachdy Colliery, was closed in 1949 (at which time alterations to the platform led to removal of the waiting shelter).  The branch had originally continued over some pretty fierce gradients, as steep as 1 in 30 in places, to Llanwonno Siding although the top most section beyond Mynachdy Colliery Sdg was lightly used and closed in 1931 although it wasn't removed until some years later.  Old Ynysybwl Halt was always the terminus of passenger services but was actually only the physical terminus of the line for the comparatively short period between 1949/5050 and the total withdrawal of passenger services in July 1952 although the track and platform remained in situ for some years after that.  

But that still means it counted as a Halt (shown as such in timetables) at a terminus.

[The Stationmaster]

The logic, I would guess, is that if the track was continuous, there would need to be other means to ensure that two trains couldn't bump into one another; detection, interlocking, signalling, all sorts of expensive and failure-prone things. 

 

At Penarth it was a pair of rail built stop blocks placed some yards apart - not at all failure prone (except in the event of being hit by a train).

[Nearholmer]

Terminology(!), possibly; in my brain the situation you describe would constitute "a discontinuity", continuous being synonymous with "uninterrupted".

[Nearholmer]

Can I seek expert opinion on the form of the two signals marked in red below?

 

Passenger trains arrived from the right, and terminated at Berwig Halt.

 

The two 'green' signals are 'stop' signals to protect the LC, the left post of the two also carrying the distant arm for the next LC down (Up?) the line.

 

Beyond the halt, going leftward was 'goods only', so I assume that the two signals marked red were both ringed-arm 'stop' signals, one giving exit from passenger territory, and confirming that the catch-point was open, the other giving entry to passenger territory and likewise.

 

Perhaps, the left-most could be used to hold a goods train, while a passenger train entered stage right, did its stuff, departed, and got as far as the next block-post ..... in which case the little signal box at Berwig must have been a block post itself.

 

Discuss; confirm; deny; speculate. Please.

 

I'm so taken by this place that I'm seriously considering a layout based on it, although probably transported to Sussex, because I don't understand the GWR or Wales very well. I've even selected the chapel to use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehoboth_Chapel,_Jarvis_Brook.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Right Away]

Not certain it was classified "Halt" as I can find no photographs showing a running in board, but the erstwhile Devil's Dyke branch in Sussex was worked by Sentinal railcars and tank locomotives before its closure.

[johnofwessex]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/berwig/

[Nick Holliday]

Not certain it was classified "Halt" as I can find no photographs showing a running in board, but the erstwhile Devil's Dyke branch in Sussex was worked by Sentinal railcars and tank locomotives before its closure.

I don't think there was a station name board, instead the signal box on the platform proudly declares "Dyke Station".

[Coryton]

Thanks Miss Prism and Johnster, thats the oneI was thinking of!  

 

The line continued to a colliery in earlier years, didn't it?

 

It did, but I believe that it was intended to meet up with the Taff Vale Railway so that it could carry coal from the Marquis of Bute's mines to his docks while paying less money to the Taff Vale. Curiously, the Taff Vale weren't so keen on the scheme and never permitted the connection.

 

So the only coal it carried was from the Nantgarw Colliery*, until (1952?) it was linked directly to the former Taff Vale line. And now the former site of the colliery is a leisure complex.

 

So in a sense the whole line was a white elephant, but a large number of commuters in Cardiff now benefit from an alternative to the congestion on the roads.

 

I think you'd have a good 15 years between the end of services beyond Coryton and 1967, so you might have your terminus halt with buffer stops there.

 

If you want any information on Coryton as it currently is, do ask.

 

* Apart presumably from coal deliveries to stations on the line, having come the long way round.

[Nearholmer]

I guess, given your identity, that you are an expert!

 

I did google-round about the place, and it was definitely very interesting in the late-steam period.

[Coryton]

I guess, given your identity, that you are an expert!

 

I certainly wouldn't claim that, but I've read what I could find on the internet and it does seem to have had an interesting history.

 

It's certainly changed a lot over the years (no sign of goods yards or anything but 'halts' now) but I'm grateful that it still exists and has a frequent(ish) passenger service.

[The Stationmaster]

Can I seek expert opinion on the form of the two signals marked in red below?

 

Passenger trains arrived from the right, and terminated at Berwig Halt.

 

The two 'green' signals are 'stop' signals to protect the LC, the left post of the two also carrying the distant arm for the next LC down (Up?) the line.

 

Beyond the halt, going leftward was 'goods only', so I assume that the two signals marked red were both ringed-arm 'stop' signals, one giving exit from passenger territory, and confirming that the catch-point was open, the other giving entry to passenger territory and likewise.

 

Perhaps, the left-most could be used to hold a goods train, while a passenger train entered stage right, did its stuff, departed, and got as far as the next block-post ..... in which case the little signal box at Berwig must have been a block post itself.

 

Discuss; confirm; deny; speculate. Please.

 

I'm so taken by this place that I'm seriously considering a layout based on it, although probably transported to Sussex, because I don't understand the GWR or Wales very well. I've even selected the chapel to use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehoboth_Chapel,_Jarvis_Brook.

 

Applying logic (GWR style logic that is!) the signal reading from the station end towards Minera was probably a short arm but without a 'good & siding' ring on it because it also applied to passenger trains.  Coming from Minera towards the trap would (should) have been a short arm with a 'goods & siding' ring on it as it applied to a goods line.  However GWR logic was not always consistent, sorry!

[Nearholmer]

I think I sort of understand that.

 

My original thought was that the one going towards Minera would also be ringed, the ring indicating that, when cleared, it couldn’t be accepted by a passenger train, which I think would be SR logic.

[TheSignalEngineer]

As a reminder, a Halt isn't necessarily a request stop (good job, in the case of termini!), its defining feature is that it has no facility to issue tickets. We should probably admit GWR 'platforms', which I think had limited and/or part-time ticket issuing facilities.

 

 

Some GWR 'Platforms' were quite substantial stations. On the North Warwickshire Lin,e Yardley Wood Platform had a Ticket Office on the road bridge, brick built waiting rooms and toilets on the Birmingham-bound platform and a brick waiting room on the other side provided when the line opened in 1908. All are still standing albeit the down side waiting room is now just a brick shelter. There was also a pair of semi-detached houses built by the railway to accommodate the permanent staff.

[The Johnster]

Coryton was originally a proper staffed station on the Cardiff Railway, which ended up as the terminus though that was not the original intention.  The Cardiff Railway is an interesting 'might have been' in itself; promoted by the Butes and Cardiff Dock interests and opened in 1897, it was a deliberate attempt to tap the Taff Vale's traffic at Treforest and divert it off that railway.  The advantage to Bute and the Docksmen (an influential and probably highly corrupt group of Cardiff shipowners) would have been that their bill from the TV would have been greatly reduced, and the traffic would have avoided the Walnut Tree and Radyr bottlenecks, and fed the coal into the docks from the Rhymney rather than the TV, which would have been more convenient for the new docks under construction to the east of the original docks (the Roath and Queen Alexandra that are still in use for commercial shipping).  These could accommodate bigger ships in bigger sea locks, another advantage.

 

The Taff Vale (Bristol Merchant Venturer interests; it shared some original directors with the GW, and Brunel) resisted strongly; it had already taken a hammering with the opening of the Barry Railway, and so had Cardiff Docks and it's backers.  The Butes had powerful friends in Westminster, and knew how to use them; the Cardiff Railway Bill was duly passed.  The Cardiff Railway ran from Heath Junction (with the Rhymney, which had agreed running powers with it) across the north of Cardiff, still rural villages then, and followed the Taff Valley up it's more populous eastern side to a junction with the Taff Vale at Treforest.  Much of it's route is followed by the modern A470 dual carriageway road.  There were tunnels through the cliffs at Tongwynlais, and a Cardiff (Parade)-Pontypridd railmotor service was planned.  

 

The line was opened and a coal train actually ran along it's entire length from Treforest to Heath Jc, but the TV managed to get an immediate injunction on the use of the junction, and no further trains ever ran across the junction.  The Cardiff Railway's investment was never returned, the 4 track stations with passing loops at the platforms so that passenger trains could allow the more important coal traffic a clear run were little used, and the railmotor service truncated at Rhydfelin, about a mile south of the junction at Treforest.  No CR train ever ran to Pontypridd.  The GW pulled the plug in, IIRC, 1932, and the passenger terminus became Coryton; still is, and the line is a well used Cardiff commuter route.  Coal trains ran to the Nantgarw colliery until 1952 when a direct connection was made to the Taff Vale just north of Taff's Well station; the section between Glanyllyn and Coryton was abandoned at that time.  There was a good bit of freight work to the yards of the remaining stations and sidings serving factories on an industrial estate at Llanishen; these included the Llanishen Royal Ordnance Factory, and this seemed to be a preferred job for a 94xx for some reason, and D95xx took over at the very end (this working also serviced the small coal yard at Fairoak Road on the Rhymney main line, but all freight traffic stopped and line was singled from Heath Jc (and the stations reduced to unstaffed with shelters) in 1967.  There were carriage sidings at Heath Jc, used until the end of steam working.

 

The GW inherited some Kitson saddle tanks, including 1338 which is at Didcot having spent many years shunting Bridgewater docks, and some 0-6-0s which it converted to panniers, and a trio of very powerful 0-6-2s which it rebuilt with no.2 boilers to something not dissimilar to a 56xx; these had very distinctive extended tanks with sloping tops.  The railmotors were converted to auto trailers with the standard GW fittings, as were their matching trailers; these ran in the Cardiff area on the Coryton and Maindy Flyer services until the mid 50s, long enough to carry crimson livery.

 

An LNER B12 once ran to Coryton, with an ambulance train towards the end of WW2; the US army treated wounded at the nearby Whitchuch Hospital, and the B12s worked these trains, which were air braked and through working from the battle areas via the Zeebrugge-Harwich train ferry.

 

Today I are mostly writing potted histories of the Cardiff Railway.  Tongwynlais in 1951, still open for general merchandise goods and host to through coal trains from Nantgarw hauled by one of East Dock's museum pieces, would be a wonderful model; it was overgrown and derelict to the extreme!

[corneliuslundie]

What about the northern terminus, Drybrook, of he passenger service on the Forest of Dean branch? the line never opened properly beyond it and I think it was a single platform without a loop.

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

Anything to do with railways in the FoD is confusing, at least to me it is, and this seems particularly so!  

 

This is what Wikipedia says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_and_Wye_Railway#Cinderford_stations

 

I think this tells us that Drybrook Road, then Bilson Road Platform, then, eventually, Cinderford Station were all terminating points at various stages.

 

Looking at NLS Maps, I think Drybrook Road had a run-around loop, but I'm not totally sure².

 

The 1878 map shows that Bilson Road Platform¹ would make a cracking diorama model, because it was just short of a tramway crossing the S&WRy on the level, in the middle of a 'heathy' bit of the forest, and was only accessible to passengers by what look like unpaved/unfenced roads/paths.

 

1. Bilson Road Platform was not the same as Bilson Halt, which was created later, and on a different branch, although not far away........ see line one of this posting!

 

2. Yes, on the 1878 map it definitely has a run-around, and no less than four signal posts

Edited January 27, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Oh, calamity!

 

I am confused!

 

You're talking about Drybrook Halt on the GWR, while I'm talking about Drybrook Road on the S&WRy, and I'm looking at pictures go your one, and trying to square them with maps of mine!

 

Yes, well ....... both places seem to have been Halt-Termini, although mine for only a few years, Bilson Road Platform possibly for rather longer.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Nearholmer

[tomparryharry]

Brookwood. For some, that was pretty terminal....

 

B. Ramstoker

[corneliuslundie]

There was a temporary terminus on the Severn & Wye at 17 mines 32 chains referred to i think as a "drop platform". I think that is probably the Drybrook Road  you are thinking of. There was a problem crossing the pre-existing tramway with a passenger service. When that was resolved passenger trains used a permanent station within the Bilson complex, still on the S&W, known as Cinderford. When the joint station was built further east the station at Bilson closed and trains used the new station.

The Drybrood Halt I am referring to was on the abortive route from the GWR Forest of Dean branch at Bilson to Mitcheldean Road on the line from Ross to Grange Court. It opened for passenger traffic as far as Drybrook. During the war the track was extended to the tunnel which was used by the military. Cooke shows a loop short of the station but it is labelled Harrow Hill siding and would not have been used as a runaround as it served a colliery. Trains were certainly push-pull. One ran away and hit the bufferstops rather hard at Bilson while being parked.

There are several good books on the FoD lines with lots of photos - see for example "The Forest of Dean branch volume 2" by Pope and Karau, pages 35 et seq.

there is also a very good section on RMWeb about the FoD, though it has been qquiet of late.

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

I think I sort of understand that.

 

My original thought was that the one going towards Minera would also be ringed, the ring indicating that, when cleared, it couldn’t be accepted by a passenger train, which I think would be SR logic.

 

Ah, be guided not by SR logic when considering GWR logic in respect of rings on signal arms.  On the GWR/WR (while they lasted on the latter) they were used on signals which applied to goods lines and sidings so therefore not used on signals which read towards a goods line; on the SR they were used on signals which read towards goods lines. 

 

(We'll ignore at this juncture LNWR use of rings on signals amrms because it was different from both the GWR and SR usage.)

[Nearholmer]

Jonathon

 

The “drop platform” was Bilson Road, which was beyond Drybrook Road.

 

I do have the 1960/70s pair of books (Parr?), but, like 90% of my books, they are packed away.

 

It’s an area that I’d like to revisit, a bit more thoroughly, and I notice that a lot of the paths/tram roads are now approved for cycling, so definitely one to keep in mind for when circumstances permit.

 

K

[locoholic]

PS: is there a train, trapped by buffers at Ormskirk and Kirkby, shuttling to and fro, with no means of escape, I have to ask?

You are describing the erstwhile Waterford and Tramore Railway in Ireland!

[tomparryharry]

The only 'halt' I can think of that took timetabled trains, would be the works platform alongside Caerphilly works. Closed in 1964.