Megapoints power supply

[Marcyg]

Hi all, I'm scratching my head a bit here. I'm installing a Megapoints system on to my layout and I'm having trouble getting enough power to throw the points. I'm using solenoid controllers. I've tried 16v 2amp and 24v 2amp supplies and neither of them will throw the points. Both supplies are DC, possibly regulated, so I'm not sure if that's an issue. The website says 16-18VAC at 2 amps, and suggests some supplies, including an old H&M transformer. Whilst I can see the suggestions, I'm reluctant to buy any more supplies until I know of one that will definatly work, as I'm going to need to power 162 points in the end, which will require quite a few supplies. I'm hoping to find one with enough oomph to power 2-3 solenoid controllers. Either a wall adaptor or a sealed transformer that uses a kettle lead would be ideal due to the shear amount and placement of them all. Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks

[Brian]

Hi

While I don't own a Megapoints controller, you can adjust the power output time to the solenoids. This could be your problem in that the pulse duration is a little too short?  Move jumper to Power and use the Up button to increase the pulse duration. Its default is 10 milliseconds and each press increases it by 10 Ms   Try 20 or 30Ms settings.

The 16v or 24v DC 2.0Amp PSU should be OK.

 

What make of solenoids are being used?

Edited February 15, 2019 by Brian
Question asked re make of motors

[meil]

I quote from the User Guide: "Power should be from a 2 Amp AC or DC power supply or transformer between 12 to 24 volts with 16 volts A/C being the sweet spot. The power terminals (located at the bottom) have no polarity"

[Marcyg]

37 minutes ago, Brian said:

Hi

While I don't own a Megapoints controller, you can adjust the power output time to the solenoids. This could be your problem in that the pulse duration is a little too short?  Move jumper to Power and use the Up button to increase the pulse duration. Its default is 10 milliseconds and each press increases it by 10 Ms   Try 20 or 30Ms settings.

The 16v or 24v DC 2.0Amp PSU should be OK.

 

What make of solenoids are being used?

I have upped the duty time and its not making much difference. They're just normal Seep point solenoids, all new. If I brush the transformer wires direct to the point motor wiring (disconnected from the solenoid controller board) the point motor nearly shoots across the room. I'm stumped

[Marcyg]

22 minutes ago, meil said:

I quote from the User Guide: "Power should be from a 2 Amp AC or DC power supply or transformer between 12 to 24 volts with 16 volts A/C being the sweet spot. The power terminals (located at the bottom) have no polarity"

I've read that bit, I cant even make 24v fire the points. Granted they're DC, but I don't know how that would make a difference?

[AndyID]

Can you make the point solenoids work without the Megapoints controller?

[roy h]

drop dave a email. thing about this product is the support from dave. im running quite a lot of megapoint boards and if i have had one of them moments when setting things up dave has helped me out.

 

[Happy Hippo]

I would agree with Roy.

 

If you have a problem with the system, then the manufacturer, in this case Dave Fenton, is the first person to ask.

 

He is only too willing to help, so if you are really struggling, just ring him, obviously at a sensible time, and he will talk you through any issues you are having.

 

As Andy has suggested earlier in the thread, have you tested the solenoids prior to installing them, and do they work without the Megapoints board.

 

I struggled to make my servo controller work, until I realized I'd left the ground lead loose!

[Brian]

Contacting the suppler is the best option.

I would also ensure the three wires to each motor are wired in at least 16/0.2mm equipment wire (0.5mm2) or larger wire size where wire run is long

The OP does state that he has the Seeps operating correctly directly from the power supply.

[Grovenor]

Surely a Megapoints controller is for operation of Servo motors NOT solenoids! There is no way a 5V pulsed servo output will operate a solenoid.

Regards

[Brian]

24 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Surely a Megapoints controller is for operation of Servo motors NOT solenoids! There is no way a 5V pulsed servo output will operate a solenoid.

Regards

Not of its this one Keith

Megapoints controller

[Grovenor]

Ok thanks, always something new!

[Marcyg]

OK, sorry for the late replies. I have it sorted. I purchased the transformer recommended on the website, the RS components transformer. After speaking to Dave, he thinks I'll need 4-5 to run my layout, which is around 160 points. Hooked one up and all the issues disappeared. I think my problem was I used regulated supplies, in the form of laptop 'bricks', which are designed to stop surges, which the solenoid boards create. So, after all that, the moral of the story is, take the recommendation of the manufacturer, they designed it after all.

[clecklewyke]

On the advice in the Megapoints web site I have purchased a Fusion PS101 to power my Megapoints system. But it’s terribly noisy as it has a cooling which is very intrusive. Since when I am in the railway room I either listen to music or DCC sounds the intrusive whir of the fan is unacceptable.

 

Can anyone please recommend a silent power supply?

Thanks

Ian

 

 

 

 

[AndyID]

2 hours ago, clecklewyke said:

On the advice in the Megapoints web site I have purchased a Fusion PS101 to power my Megapoints system. But it’s terribly noisy as it has a cooling which is very intrusive. Since when I am in the railway room I either listen to music or DCC sounds the intrusive whir of the fan is unacceptable.

 

Can anyone please recommend a silent power supply?

Thanks

Ian

 

Something is horribly wrong. That's a 100 watt power supply. That means it's rated to deliver 100 watts continuously. You would have to be energizing a solenoid many times every second to need anything like that amount of continuous power.

 

I don't have details on that power supply, but it's possible the fan just runs all the time regardless of whether it really needs cooling or not. If that's the case I would just disconnect the fan or add a switch so it can be turned off. The intermittent power required to drive solenoids will generate very little heat in the power supply.

 

EDIT: Found this comment on Ebay:

 

"The big down side is that it has a noisy fan. It would be better if the fan was temperature controlled and only came on if the PSU got hot. At low current draws it is unlikely to get very hot as it goes up to 8A output."

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by AndyID
More info

[njee20]

 

6 hours ago, AndyID said:

 

Something is horribly wrong. That's a 100 watt power supply. That means it's rated to deliver 100 watts continuously. You would have to be energizing a solenoid many times every second to need anything like that amount of continuous power.

 

I don't have details on that power supply, but it's possible the fan just runs all the time regardless of whether it really needs cooling or not. If that's the case I would just disconnect the fan or add a switch so it can be turned off. The intermittent power required to drive solenoids will generate very little heat in the power supply.

 

EDIT: Found this comment on Ebay:

 

"The big down side is that it has a noisy fan. It would be better if the fan was temperature controlled and only came on if the PSU got hot. At low current draws it is unlikely to get very hot as it goes up to 8A output."

 

That comment is not from the OP, and I assume he’s using the servo boards, not solenoids, the recommendation from Dave is to use something ‘meaty’ for the servo boards (I’ve no experience of the solenoid ones), and certainly I found using a laptop supply didn’t cut it with 4 boards. The problem was startup, they’d all just twitch in unison without sufficient power. 

 

I find the same, and after some quick research didn’t find a satisfactory solution. I stop noticing it after a while (I use a Ripmax one, but basically the same), but something silent would be welcome. 

 

Personally I’d be very wary of removing the fan, ultimately it’s there for a reason.  

Edited March 9, 2019 by njee20

[AndyID]

9 hours ago, njee20 said:

 

That comment is not from the OP, and I assume he’s using the servo boards, not solenoids, the recommendation from Dave is to use something ‘meaty’ for the servo boards (I’ve no experience of the solenoid ones), and certainly I found using a laptop supply didn’t cut it with 4 boards. The problem was startup, they’d all just twitch in unison without sufficient power. 

 

I find the same, and after some quick research didn’t find a satisfactory solution. I stop noticing it after a while (I use a Ripmax one, but basically the same), but something silent would be welcome. 

 

Personally I’d be very wary of removing the fan, ultimately it’s there for a reason.  

 

That makes more sense. Mind you, 100 watts continuous seems a bit ridiculous even for servos, and servos need 5 volts, not 13 volts. I also don't understand why all the servos are energized at start-up. Surely it's not difficult to energize them in sequence rather than simultaneously?

 

The fan is there to remove heat from the PSU's internal circuitry when it's delivering 100W continuously. For intermittent power delivery the internal heat sinks ought to be able to dissipate the heat, but whether or not they can will depend on the duty cycle and other factors. A better solution would be to find a PSU that only runs the fan fast enough to remove excess heat. For this application I suspect it would hardy ever run or never run at all.

[njee20]

But you’re not powering the servos directly, you’re powering the Megapoints board, which needs 10-13.8v, and does require constant power...

[AndyID]

20 minutes ago, njee20 said:

But you’re not powering the servos directly, you’re powering the Megapoints board, which needs 10-13.8v, and does require constant power...

 

Indeed it does. But the power consumed by the Megapoints board itself is peanuts compared to the power required to drive the servos. The board might need as much as a couple of watts although that's stretching things a quite a bit, and I'd be very surprised if its logic needs any more than a five volt supply which means that the board has some sort of regulator to drop the 13 volts to 5 volts. To avoid destroying the logic in the servos the board must not supply them with more than 5 volts.

 

 

[njee20]

But it won’t work if you supply the board with 5v, so this seems wholly moot. Obviously there’s a regulator in there somewhere. 

 

Perhaps direct your questions at Dave Fenton, I just use the products and use the supply he recommends. I had problems previously using a 15v 1A supply that wouldn’t work with the boards. I believe it’s the current rather than the voltage that’s the issue though.

[AndyID]

3 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Perhaps direct your questions at Dave Fenton,

 

Requiring a 100 watt supply that can't possibly make use of more than 38 watts is a wee bit silly, but if Dave wants to discuss this with me he knows where to find me. I have no interest in competing with him in any way. 

[njee20]

What’s your logic for not being able to use more than 38v? Is that not a function of how many servos it’s driving? I’ve got about 60. 

[AndyID]

If you mean 38 watts rather than volts

 

100 x 5/13 = 38

 

Unless your sixty servos are continuously fighting hard to maintain a position they are consuming next to no power. You can easily confirm this by testing to see if they are getting hot. The only time servos consume a lot of power is while they are moving. That's not very often if they are driving points.

[clecklewyke]

The simple fact is that the Megapoints web site states that you need a regulated power supply delivering 12 v or thereabouts and you need 2amps per servo controller board. I have two such boards so need a minimum of 4amps. I agree that the Fusion PS 101 is overkill,. It is more than I need and I was hoping to find a less powerful power supply that is silent.

 

All this is now overtaken by events as the Fusio ps failed - totally dead. It will be returned to its suppler and in replacemend I have ordered a Signcomplex ps rated at 12v 6a. Much cheaper and >50 good reviews.

 

Its arriving tomorrow so watch this space!

 

Ian

 

 

[AndyID]

11 hours ago, clecklewyke said:

The simple fact is that the Megapoints web site states that you need a regulated power supply delivering 12 v or thereabouts and you need 2amps per servo controller board.

 

My guess is Dave decided it's safer to use on-board regulators to take it down to 5 volts rather than rely on some possibly dodgy external 5 volt supply. Can't say I blame him