The Shrunken Royal Navy

[J. S. Bach]

Hmmm, a 30 mm main gun? I have a dummy thirty mike-mike shell on my kitchen counter and it certainly can not be much of a stopper! A live one, that is.

[Legend]

7 hours ago, Ohmisterporter said:

There has been lots of comment about the OPVs and how they should be up-gunned to become mini frigates or corvettes. This article from the thin pinstriped line.blog gives a thoughtful summary as to why this is not really necessary nor feasible. Hope you find this of interest.

 

https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2020/09/solving-problem-that-doesnt-exist-up.html

Thanks  for the link as always . Yes I see the point it’s designed for low threat constabulary work . Trouble is low threat can quite quickly escalate to high threat. A warship should be able to at least defend itself . Can a River class do that?  If not it’s not a warship it’s a liability requiring defending . But that seems to be the way the RN is going . Everyone concentrating on hulls but not the armament .  These boats are a tick box exercise delivering numbers of hulls but completely ineffective . 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Legend

[Kickstart]

The RN has used similar vessels, such as Leeds Castle.

 

I can certainly see the point of a cheap hull for these duties, but a more capable ship could do these duties (at greater expense) and could also perform a serious defence role.
 

Suppose it comes down to comparative cost

 

All the best

 

Katy

[The Stationmaster]

The real question is what would you upgrade the gun to, and what other weapons would you add?  The next step up gun wise would seem to be the latest version of the 76mm OTO-Melara rapid fire gun.    But its mounting. empty. weighs 7.5 tonnes which is clearly more than the 30mm mounting (I can't find a weight for that but it would be significantly less) plus the 76mm ammo is much larger and heavier than the 30mm ammo so weight for weight the ship would have to carry fewer rounds.  But the 76mm outranges the 30mm by a factor of three and its weight of fire per round is obviously much heavier.  But to use it would mean significant design changes so it's hardly a retrofit job and as original fit kit it would no doubt have needed a larger hull.

 

So it would come back to cost - do you get the hulls for 'policing' duties or do you have fewer hulls that are a bit more capable of defending themselves?  As it stands the 30mm gun has limited anti-missile capability (depending on sensor fit and links and outranges the weapons most of the cowboy sorts such as pirates and the Iranian non-naval units use.  Plus it has a very high rate of fire.  I bet the really close range CIWS is exactly the same as other RN vessels - GPMGs and/or miniguns..

[peach james]

If it were I, I'd have gone for the 76mm gun from the start, along with something like 4-6 stations for .50 or mk29's.  That is a constabulary equipment.  Even the much derided RCN MCDV's have a 40mm gun on them- admittedly, ex Bonny !

 

There are a lot of cases where something like 76mm QF gun is going to be enough of an answer.  A crew complement of 40-60, a hull design that is capable of cross atlantic without running out of F76, and 18-20 kts is an appropriate ship design.

 

Having played with the non commissioned RCN ORCA's (I have an OCE ticket, though out of date as I am retired...), you need something bigger than they are (410 tons, .50 cal station only) for effective patrols.  I haven't followed HMCS Harry de Wolf, but I suspect that it is in the sweet spot for OPV.

 

The reality is that for defence to 200 miles off the coast, Air Force is more important than Navy in wartime.  In peacetime, it's hard for a plane to deal with a ship...because harpoon or Sea Eagle aren't going to work on all situations   So, OPV's are important for costal operations, then FF, DD, AOR & CV as a combined task force is important.

 

 

 

[Ohmisterporter]

A book review that sounds interesting is listed on Save the Royal navy blog. Harrier 809 is the story of the quickly assembled Sea Harrier squadron that served on Atlantic Conveyor in the Falklands War. Sounds like a book to look out for whenever we get back to normal.

 

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/harrier-809-book-review/

[The Stationmaster]

On 13/10/2020 at 14:57, Ohmisterporter said:

A book review that sounds interesting is listed on Save the Royal navy blog. Harrier 809 is the story of the quickly assembled Sea Harrier squadron that served on Atlantic Conveyor in the Falklands War. Sounds like a book to look out for whenever we get back to normal.

 

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/harrier-809-book-review/

Very interesting.  i watched lorry loads of equipment, and Wessex helicopters passing through Plymouth to load on 'Atlantic Conveyor' and watched her sail from Plymouth in the company of RN vessels including a fleet submarine which was out in the sound waiting for the other vessels to leave Devonport.

[Joseph_Pestell]

36 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Very interesting.  i watched lorry loads of equipment, and Wessex helicopters passing through Plymouth to load on 'Atlantic Conveyor' and watched her sail from Plymouth in the company of RN vessels including a fleet submarine which was out in the sound waiting for the other vessels to leave Devonport.

That's a coincidence. I was in Plymouth on holiday from France and saw Atlantic Conveyor from The Hoe. We watched the helicopters landing for quite a while. So very affected when she was sunk a few weeks later.

The passage into Devonport is quite complicated, so very good defensively.

[Zero Gravitas]

On 13/10/2020 at 14:57, Ohmisterporter said:

A book review that sounds interesting is listed on Save the Royal navy blog. Harrier 809 is the story of the quickly assembled Sea Harrier squadron that served on Atlantic Conveyor in the Falklands War. Sounds like a book to look out for whenever we get back to normal.

 

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/harrier-809-book-review/

 

Ordered. If it’s as good as Rowland White’s other books (Vulcan 607, Phoenix Squadron), it will be a splendid read.

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Zero Gravitas said:

 

Ordered. If it’s as good as Rowland White’s other books (Vulcan 607, Phoenix Squadron), it will be a splendid read.

there’s a review of it in this months Warships Mag.  As well as talking of 809 squadron I think it includes interviews with Argentinian pilots . Also looks at the wider air war . 

[Ohmisterporter]

Will a decision be made on building the Fleet Solid Support ships in Britain? Or at least part of them. 

 

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/fleet-solid-support-ships-for-the-royal-navy-to-be-built-in-britain/

[Barry O]

Navantia.. the only company in the world to build non buoyant submarines...

 

Baz

[J. S. Bach]

3 hours ago, Ohmisterporter said:

Will a decision be made on building the Fleet Solid Support ships in Britain? Or at least part of them.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/fleet-solid-support-ships-for-the-royal-navy-to-be-built-in-britain/

From the article:

"ships to deliver bombs, beer and beans to the fleet at sea."

When I was on the Kitty Hawk, we called it "beans, bullets, and black oil". No beer, unfortunately!

[peach james]

On 24/10/2020 at 09:46, J. S. Bach said:

From the article:

"ships to deliver bombs, beer and beans to the fleet at sea."

When I was on the Kitty Hawk, we called it "beans, bullets, and black oil". No beer, unfortunately!

When I was on HMCS Protecteur in 2002, we delivered a 20' container of beer to HMCS St John's for the trip home, via Mk 4 RAS.

(and some DFO...no more Black Oil...it's all F76 now, had been since 1986...)

Petro-Canada, that was us...and the corner beer store

[Fat Controller]

On 15/10/2020 at 13:48, Legend said:

there’s a review of it in this months Warships Mag.  As well as talking of 809 squadron I think it includes interviews with Argentinian pilots . Also looks at the wider air war . 

For info, it was on sale in Sainsbury's Folkestone (Park Farm) last Sunday.

 

[OnTheBranchline]

On 30/08/2020 at 07:45, Legend said:

Another one where the Americans won the war? 

 

Or they captured Engima?

[peach james]

15 hours ago, peach james said:

When I was on HMCS Protecteur in 2002, we delivered a 20' container of beer to HMCS St John's for the trip home, via Mk 4 RAS.

(and some DFO...no more Black Oil...it's all F76 now, had been since 1986...)

Petro-Canada, that was us...and the corner beer store

D'oh, someone probably thinks I mean we actually sent the whole container...no, it was loaded onto skids, then sent over 2240 lb at a time.  We kept the container (it was a refrigerated one) for foodstuffs.

I had the CD of photos up on Flickr, but then of course, Flickr changed their policies (to 1000 items) and I deleted them...

[Legend]

Quite surprised no ones mentioned the prospective Type32 Frigate yet. Apparently this was announced by Boris as part of the £16bn defence increase (£4bn in each 4 years) . No one really knows what it is . I initially thought our Prime Minister had got it wrong and meant the Type 31 but apparently the First Sea Lord has confirmed the existence of the Type 32 . It could however be a quasi minesweeper replacement . Nobody seems to know . 
 

 

[The Stationmaster]

The Type 32, maybe

 

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/11/uk-to-restore-royal-navy-to-europes-most-powerful-maritime-force/

[billbedford]

What exactly was the PM talking about with this tweet?

 

"Our warships and combat vehicles will carry directed energy weapons, destroying targets with inexhaustible lasers."

[Grovenor]

Star Trek?

[Fat Controller]

4 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

Star Trek?

He watched too much 'Tomorrow's World' at an impressionable age; either that, or he's remembered some of Archimedes' ideas from his classical studies. I await the announcement of the ship-lifting crane with interest....

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, billbedford said:

What exactly was the PM talking about with this tweet?

 

 

 

Directed energy weapons.   The UK versions are apparently working towards trials in the next year or two so we might actually not be too far behind the USA, Russia, and China.  At least two of those nations already have what appears to a service fit of such a weapon.   The US Navy version started sea trials in 2014 and following successful trials is being fitted to more vessels plus a land based version is reportedly being trialled.  the Russian weapon is reportedly a laser intended to short range defence of mobile ICBM launchers and intended to deal with drone etc weapons

 

Conceivably the 'inexhaustible' reference is a simplistic way of saying they don't need a continuing supply of ammunition (which of course they don't).   But they do of course need a supply of energy in order to 'recharge' them for the next 'shot' but there seems to be very little information about just how much energy they need or how powerful the various versions are and how long they take to 'recharge'.  I presume that in every case those sort of details are very highly classified although various things, be they accurate or not, have crept onto the 'net about what the USN weapon can do.

[Ohmisterporter]

Some further thoughts about Type 32 from Savetheroyalnavy.org

 

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/real-hope-for-a-bigger-royal-navy-the-type-32-frigate-concept/

Edited December 1, 2020 by Ohmisterporter

[burgundy]

On 06/02/2020 at 19:27, burgundy said:

Given that we are told today that the OPVs' main role will be protecting British haddock,  it sounds as though we are getting ready for another Cod War - but on home ground this time. Maybe they would be better off with some concrete in the bow and some fenders down the sides.

Best wishes

Eric  

If the RIvers are now being expected to tangle with super trawlers that are two and three times their size, I do hope that someone has taken my suggestion seriously. 

Best wishes 

Eric