Notre Dame on fire

[New Haven Neil]

I see the organ has survived - an important Cavaille-Coll instrument. 

[Steamport Southport]

Looks like damage to the bottom part of it is not as bad as expected.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47953795

 

 

 

Jason

[Ashcombe]

Poor France! 

A friend from Toads Theatre Company wrote this:-

The Ghost of Quasimodo 

On our knees with grief and disbelief, 
the masses throng the barricades once more.
People paralysed in an unplanned demonstration
of unity through adversity. 
Here the Communards and First Republic’s dreams were voiced.
Napoleon and Hitler stood in awe. 
Esmeralda clung to gargoyles. 
Demands for freedom shouted in the square.
Now we can only stare, heavy of heart and humbled. 
Our petty parliamentary wrangles seen for what they are.
This is not ‘Their Lady’; it is Our Lady, 
martyred by fire; put to the torch.
Ask not for whom the bell tolls; that dismal knell
is a last-ditch wake-up call for Europe. 

Through the smoke of the bell tower, 
Quasimodo dances in the flames. 

John Miles. 

‘Notre Dame de Paris’ 
15th April, 2019.

Edited April 16, 2019 by Ashcombe
Enlarge name of theatre company

[New Haven Neil]

Memories of a magical evening, March 2009, our silver wedding anniversary.

 

[PaulRhB]

In a way it’s made people realise just how iconic it is, something that may well help it in the long run. It will inevitably add to the history that it survived the fire and that in itself is pretty powerful as a story to bring people in. 

[Ozexpatriate]

8 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

In a way it’s made people realise just how iconic it is, something that may well help it in the long run.

I don't think people needed reminding that the cathedral is iconic - it's the reminder that we cannot ever take things for granted that is important.

 

Nothing physical is permanent.

[gismorail]

29 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

I see the organ has survived - an important Cavaille-Coll instrument. 

Yes indeed I have to admit that it was that wonderful instrument that I was most concerned about as it had been totally restored in the 1990's at a cost of 2.2 million. A brutal 5 manual organ with 7,800 pipes to shake the very foundations of the ' Old Lady of Paris'  located between the twin bell towers at the west end of the Nave. I would imagine that there has been some considerable water & smoke damage as there was a massive amounts of water hosed during the fire to cool down the stonework around the towers to reduce any heat damage.  I read somewhere today that there could well be possible melting of some of the more exposed pipework from the heat but it could not be confirmed. 

The Cavaille-Coll organs are pure French tone and romantic in sound and I know of two in the UK , one in Parr Hall Warrington and the more well know instrument is in Manchester Town Hall both of which are in need of restoration. Both councils of these two northern towns during the 80 & 90's considered the instruments to be ' elitest ' and have over the years refused to spend any money on restoration. I'm fairly certain that a group involved with the Warrington instrument have even considered finding  a new home of the organ perhaps some of the pipes could help save the Notre Dame instrument , well it's been done in the restoration of steam locomotives . 

[Nearholmer]

I think it also says something about not being able to take things of great value, whether they be physical or not, for granted.

 

My reading is that the cathedral symbolises “the achievement that is France” or perhaps “the civilisation that is France”, in a way that no cathedral symbolises Britain as an achievement or a civilisation. The Houses of Parliament, or perhaps Big Ben specifically, might come close, but even that i’m not sure about ...... Westminster Abbey certainly doesn’t make it at the same symbolic level, although perhaps logically it ought to.

[pete_mcfarlane]

4 hours ago, Reorte said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if in 500 years there are more 19th century buildings standing in the UK than 20th century ones.

 

I don't think I'll put money down on it though

I had an interesting conversation with an Indian colleague, who reckoned that most of the buildings built in India after independence were badly built and wouldn't last as long as the ones built under British rule. So it's not just the UK that has this issue.

[New Haven Neil]

18 minutes ago, gismorail said:

Yes indeed I have to admit that it was that wonderful instrument that I was most concerned about as it had been totally restored in the 1990's at a cost of 2.2 million. A brutal 5 manual organ with 7,800 pipes to shake the very foundations of the ' Old Lady of Paris'  located between the twin bell towers at the west end of the Nave. I would imagine that there has been some considerable water & smoke damage as there was a massive amounts of water hosed during the fire to cool down the stonework around the towers to reduce any heat damage.  I read somewhere today that there could well be possible melting of some of the more exposed pipework from the heat but it could not be confirmed. 

The Cavaille-Coll organs are pure French tone and romantic in sound and I know of two in the UK , one in Parr Hall Warrington and the more well know instrument is in Manchester Town Hall both of which are in need of restoration. Both councils of these two northern towns during the 80 & 90's considered the instruments to be ' elitest ' and have over the years refused to spend any money on restoration. I'm fairly certain that a group involved with the Warrington instrument have even considered finding  a new home of the organ perhaps some of the pipes could help save the Notre Dame instrument , well it's been done in the restoration of steam locomotives . 

 

I think it's the Choir Organ that is damaged. 

 

I'm sure there's another in the UK but I'm damned if I can remember where!  edity - Farnborough Abbey.

[BoD]

Disney have posted this.  I'm not usually a fan but found this quite touching.

 

 

[jjb1970]

For all this is very sad, I do wish people would feel a little of the anguish being displayed about some building damage at some of the really bad stuff happening in the world (humanitarian tragedies).

[gismorail]

22 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

 

I think it's the Choir Organ that is damaged. 

 

I'm sure there's another in the UK but I'm damned if I can remember where!  edity - Farnborough Abbey.

Yes the organ at Farnborough Abbey has Cavaille-Coll pipes within it but I understand that it's  origins are a Mutin which has strong links  

There is however a very small Cavaille-Coll in a place called Cathays in the Diocese of Llandaff South Wales again is in need of restoration. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by gismorail

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I think it also says something about not being able to take things of great value, whether they be physical or not, for granted.

 

My reading is that the cathedral symbolises “the achievement that is France” or perhaps “the civilisation that is France”, in a way that no cathedral symbolises Britain as an achievement or a civilisation. The Houses of Parliament, or perhaps Big Ben specifically, might come close, but even that i’m not sure about ...... Westminster Abbey certainly doesn’t make it at the same symbolic level, although perhaps logically it ought to.

I think one should look at the efforts to make sure that St Paul's was not destroyed during the Blitz.

[brianusa]

1 hour ago, gismorail said:

The Cavaille-Coll organs are pure French tone and romantic in sound and I know of two in the UK , one in Parr Hall Warrington and the more well know instrument is in Manchester Town Hall both of which are in need of restoration. Both councils of these two northern towns during the 80 & 90's considered the instruments to be ' elitest ' and have over the years refused to spend any money on restoration.

 

What doe this tell us about the burghers of Warrington and Manchester?

     Brian

[gismorail]

6 minutes ago, brianusa said:

 

What doe this tell us about the burghers of Warrington and Manchester?

     Brian

Well both councils are both from the same political party so I could not possible comment on this situation due to the PC rules on these forums ....but I'm sure you get my drift. 

 

[gismorail]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I think it also says something about not being able to take things of great value, whether they be physical or not, for granted.

 

My reading is that the cathedral symbolises “the achievement that is France” or perhaps “the civilisation that is France”, in a way that no cathedral symbolises Britain as an achievement or a civilisation. The Houses of Parliament, or perhaps Big Ben specifically, might come close, but even that i’m not sure about ...... Westminster Abbey certainly doesn’t make it at the same symbolic level, although perhaps logically it ought to.

In the current situation regarding the restoration of the Houses of Parliament maybe Guy Forkes did have a good idea 

[Titan]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

For all this is very sad, I do wish people would feel a little of the anguish being displayed about some building damage at some of the really bad stuff happening in the world (humanitarian tragedies).

 

I would tend to agree. Just over 24 hours since the fire started and private pledges have reached almost one billion Euros. I am not sure how much Notre Dame will cost to repair, but no matter how lavish the job there must surely be some left over that could be put to helping those humanitarian issues.

[friscopete]

I always felt these structures were a vanity project of  sinful men wanting to buy their way into heaven .Of course the poor had to pay  for it ,no chance of them dipping into their own coffers.So while I am shocked and sad at its terrible damage I feel it should never have been built in the first place .Of course it should be repaired to the fullest degree but make sure the poor dont pay for it  but at  some point  I think they probably will ...as usual.

[PaulRhB]

It's good the big companies will ease the burden so hopefully the tax payers money can go on social projects instead, it is an iconic structure though so it's worth saving for the long term future.

It would also be interesting to ask those same companies if they can do that what else could they do for humanitarian projects . . . use it as a way to raise the profile of where the money goes . . . . .

[Torper]

11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

My reading is that the cathedral symbolises “the achievement that is France” or perhaps “the civilisation that is France”, in a way that no cathedral symbolises Britain as an achievement or a civilisation. The Houses of Parliament, or perhaps Big Ben specifically, might come close, but even that i’m not sure about ...... Westminster Abbey certainly doesn’t make it at the same symbolic level, although perhaps logically it ought to.

 

I agree - I don't think that there's any building in the UK that has same national significance as Notre Dame does in France. Perhaps that is because the UK is made up of four separate countries, all of which have their own significant icons - up here, the recent fire(s) at Glasgow's Mackintosh School of Art were regarded as particularly tragic, probably much more so that they were down south.  Someone mentioned St Pauls - well, other than the fact that it has a dome, I cannot picture St Pauls at all, any more than I can Westminster Abbey, and the destruction of either would be sad, but not (at least from the perspective up here) a national disaster, although people living in London would no doubt think differently.  Looking at it from a UK perspective, I think that Durham Cathedral would probably be the building I'd be saddest to see go.

 

DT

Edited April 17, 2019 by Torper

[Northroader]

I’m curious to see how the rebuilding will be tackled. When York Minster had the damaging fire in the south transept roof around thirty years ago, a much smaller area than the affected part of Notre Dame, it was repaired using traditional materials and techniques. Will the structure be replaced this time using the latest methods, such as composite carbon units to give a stronger, lighter, and — fireproof, structure, and retaining the same external appearance?

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Northroader said:

I’m curious to see how the rebuilding will be tackled. When York Minster had the damaging fire in the south transept roof around thirty years ago, a much smaller area than the affected part of Notre Dame, it was repaired using traditional materials and techniques. Will the structure be replaced this time using the latest methods, such as composite carbon units to give a stronger, lighter, and — fireproof, structure, and retaining the same external appearance?

 

What would you do, when the alternative is to replace 13th timber from mature forest oak trees of size now unknown?

[jonny777]

10 hours ago, Titan said:

 

I would tend to agree. Just over 24 hours since the fire started and private pledges have reached almost one billion Euros. I am not sure how much Notre Dame will cost to repair, but no matter how lavish the job there must surely be some left over that could be put to helping those humanitarian issues.

 

As someone has mentioned in this morning's paper, the rush to commit millions to the rebuilding project contrasts starkly with the lack of donations from wealthy businessmen after the Grenfell Tower fire. 

[chris p bacon]

11 hours ago, gismorail said:

In the current situation regarding the restoration of the Houses of Parliament maybe Guy Forkes did have a good idea 

 

The building that Guido wanted to destroy is still there (in part) and isn't the part under restoration.  That part is the more recent 1835 to 1852 rebuild ater the 1834 fire.  The cost of which was 3 times original budget !

 

Part of the issue with the present Parliament building is successsive governments putting back essential repairs, as the cost of carrying them out was always deemed a political hot potato, sadly it does prove that if you keep putting something off it costs you more in the long run.