Replacement for Mashima

[PenrithBeacon]

On 22/05/2019 at 10:48, PenrithBeacon said:

I came across these on eBay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/N-Drive-1015-12v-DC-micro-motor/182870714017?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Has anybody used them and what was the experience? Will they fit High Level gearboxes?

 

MTIA

Well it's been a long time, but I've been obliged to replace the motor in a Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel and these work like a dream. Having said that, I'm not sure I'd want to put one in a very much larger loco.

Horses for courses.

[LNWR lives on]

On ‎25‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 10:55, Ruston said:

They are known as N20, which is some kind of size reference. N20 are the motors that are often bought with a gearbox attached and it was these I was searching for when I found N20s without a gearbox. I no longer have the details but if you search ebay for N20 motors you should find them.

 

The same motor with gearbox attached.

 

Ruston,

 

I am rather impressed with this motor set up and the ingenuity in using this motor.

 

One thing you dont say (unless I missed it) is where you sourced the two plastic gears for the drive shaft and driving axle. Can you remember the source?

 

Best

 

David

[hayfield]

I have had a chat with Chris at High Level this morning as I had a couple of queries regarding motors. At ScaleForum last year I bought one of Chris's Coreless motors at the same time I checked out what he has in stock

 

He has a 10 series 3 pole motor at £9 each (I think he said these are the motors DJH are putting into their latest kits)

He has a few Mashima's 14 series left

I have a coreless 1219 which he sells for £28

He also now has 1320 for £29, these apparently are extremely powerful

 

Both coreless motors are used in medical devices so the quality is high

 

 

Main body 19mm long, 1.5 mm shaft 8 mm long 10mm if including the collet

Diameter 12mm, holes match High Level gearboxes  (9mm?)

[Ruston]

7 hours ago, LNWR lives on said:

 

Ruston,

 

I am rather impressed with this motor set up and the ingenuity in using this motor.

 

One thing you dont say (unless I missed it) is where you sourced the two plastic gears for the drive shaft and driving axle. Can you remember the source?

 

Best

 

David

Not exactly but they were from ebay. Search ebay for 0.5mm module nylon gears and you'll find suitable crown wheels and the spur gears with the D-shaped hole that is a perfect fit for the shaft on the N20 gearbox.

[hayfield]

Here are a couple of photos of the High Level coreless motor with a Road Runner gearbox

 

 

Just built the gearbox and it will go into a Wills/Southeastern Finecast E1 chassis

 

The motor is the smaller 1219 version

[ROY@34F]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

Here are a couple of photos of the High Level coreless motor with a Road Runner gearbox

 

 

Just built the gearbox and it will go into a Wills/Southeastern Finecast E1 chassis

 

The motor is the smaller 1219 version

 

Thats for that info John . As I remember , the coreless motors used in the Portescap  gearboxes were fitted with the pinion and crown wheel so as not to impart lateral force on the drive shaft , as a worm would do , as they weren't built to withstand it . So is this type of coreless built with better bearing design , or have I got it all wrong , which is likely , I have to say .

 

Regards , Roy .

[hayfield]

Roy

 

Sorry I cannot confirm what you have written, what I do know is that the bevel gears were far more efficient than worm gears, with the advent of smaller worms the issue is not so great, plus modern gearbox design is far better than the old motor mounts. The coreless motor seems very smooth, I still have a few bits to iron out with the chassis, but it is a bit of a test bed for the motor

 

 

I have used a High Level road runner gearbox. The motor needs to move forward a few mm to clear the firebox  backhead, I will swap the gearbox for a road runner plus

 

 

I have fitted pickups to the middle and rear wheels, the frame is much slimmer between the front and middle wheels, but as a  replacement for a Mashims motor it looks promising  

[PenrithBeacon]

I received some very nice  K20 motors with planetary gearboxes from China this morning which came with a hefty customs charge and even greater handling charge from the Post Office. It struck me though that lots of sanitation had to be applied using kitchen wipes which I did, but I wonder about the postman.

Cheers

[charliepetty]

A comprehensive range of Mashima Motors are available from DCKits,

see:  https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=182_218

 

Charlie

[hayfield]

38 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I received some very nice  K20 motors with planetary gearboxes from China this morning which came with a hefty customs charge and even greater handling charge from the Post Office. It struck me though that lots of sanitation had to be applied using kitchen wipes which I did, but I wonder about the postman.

Cheers

 

David

 

The motor looks similar (but not the same) as the High Level coreless. How high is the gear reduction and can it be removed

 

Secondly out of interest what were the charges please?

[PenrithBeacon]

25 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

David

 

The motor looks similar (but not the same) as the High Level coreless. How high is the gear reduction and can it be removed

 

Secondly out of interest what were the charges please?

John,

It's a lot smaller than the HL coreless, suitable for very small locos and 7/4mm road vehicles only. Being 3V it will require a voltage reduction resistor

The revenue import tax was £3.50 (or 10%) and the Post Office handling charge £8.50

[hayfield]

1 minute ago, PenrithBeacon said:

John,

It's a lot smaller than the HL coreless, suitable for very small locos and 7/4mm road vehicles only. Being 3V it will require a voltage reduction resistor

The revenue import tax was £3.50 (or 10%) and the Post Office handling charge £8.50

 

Ouch !!  glad I never had to pay that on the 4 cheapo motors I bought, especially as they are a bit fast !!!

[Barclay]

With the Post Office it's less of a handling charge and more of a ransom I've always felt. A useful reminder to keep individual orders to small amounts where possible.

 

Not sure I'm brave enough to order anything else from China at the moment, but the selection available makes it less likely that I'll ever be prepared to pay Mashima prices again...

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

David

 

The motor looks similar (but not the same) as the High Level coreless. How high is the gear reduction and can it be removed

 

Secondly out of interest what were the charges please?

The gear reduction is 1:700 giving a base rpm of 32k or thereabouts. These motors are not suitable for use with a worm . They're suitable for use with bevel gears.

I believe you can remove the gearbox.

[hayfield]

 

Mashima was a standard that most felt happy with and at a price many were willing to pay, though recently they got quite dear.

 

We have now seen that motors can now be obtained quite cheaply direct from China. BUT (sorry to shout) are the ones we are buying any good ?. I bought 4 (thought I was buying 2) very cheaply they work and whilst not having any fixing holes they fitted into a Branchlines gearbox (superglued) but the motor is very fast. Doubt if I will be using the others

 

There is a model available from one of the members on here at under £10 (though the more adventurous may get them cheaper direct from China, but they may differ). Might be worth a go

 

I assume part of the price structure of Mashima's was that the importer mark up on then followed by the retailers mark up

 

I cannot comment on any other products, but Chris at High Level has firstly found alternatives ( a 3 pole 10 series motor at £9 and coreless motors at £28 & £29) suitable for locos and had the cases drilled to suite his gearboxes. 

 

I would personally prefer to pay someone to do both the footwork in sourcing the product, plus arranging for a proper fixing for gearboxes, especially when its only £9. and for a coreless motor under £30 seems a reasonable price

Edited March 3, 2020 by hayfield

[ianLMS]

Looking for the N20 motors on Ebay, I came across this chart with different RPM's. Which one should I go for to replace the usual Mashima 1620 with 2-stage 38:1 or 50:1 gearbox? I have a few kits to build (LNWR Webb Coal Tank, a Stanier 2-6-4T, a Jinty etc) and these motors might do the trick with bevel gears. I have purchased one motor with a gearbox attached just to try out, and apparently its the 300RPM version. (£3.35 each with free post from UK supplier). The issue I can see is how to mount them in the chassis. I have the bevel gears as well to try out.

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by ianLMS
amended info

[pete_mcfarlane]

If the motors have free postage on eBay, surely the solution is to place multiple orders so each package is below the £15 VAT threshold?

[PenrithBeacon]

46 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

Looking for the N20 motors on Ebay, I came across this chart with different RPM's. Which one should I go for to replace the usual Mashima 1620 with 2-stage 38:1 or 50:1 gearbox? I have a few kits to build (LNWR Webb Coal Tank, a Stanier 2-6-4T, a Jinty etc) and these motors might do the trick with bevel gears. I have purchased one motor with a gearbox attached just to try out, and apparently its the 300RPM version. (£3.35 each with free post from UK supplier). The issue I can see is how to mount them in the chassis. I have the bevel gears as well to try out.

 

You can mount them in these

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233411499355

Take the lugs off and epoxy in between the frame.  They are a slide fit for Comet P4 frame spacers, you will need to be a little ingenious for 00.

You will need bevel gears for the final drive, also from eBay.

Cheers

[ianLMS]

Cheers for that. These are the bevel gears. I had to open up the centre hole as the shaft on the gearbox is 3mm.

 

 

[PenrithBeacon]

On 27/02/2020 at 10:03, PenrithBeacon said:

Well it's been a long time, but I've been obliged to replace the motor in a Dapol/Model Rail Sentinel and these work like a dream. Having said that, I'm not sure I'd want to put one in a very much larger loco.

Horses for courses.

I epoxied this motor into the loco. I cut a length of plastic strip and sanded it to a wedge shape as a support and then used Araldite to secure. If I ever need to change the motor slipping a scalpel blade through the joint should break it.

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by PenrithBeacon

[Nick Holliday]

It may interest some people that Hachette have started another series, this time for a 1:18 scale Spitfire, and in its second issue they have included a N20 motor with the necessary screws and a gear attached, which presumably matches the gears supplied in the first, super cheap, issue. Might suit those who don't want to engage in trade directly with China.

[Barclay]

2 hours ago, ianLMS said:

Looking for the N20 motors on Ebay, I came across this chart with different RPM's. Which one should I go for to replace the usual Mashima 1620 with 2-stage 38:1 or 50:1 gearbox? I have a few kits to build (LNWR Webb Coal Tank, a Stanier 2-6-4T, a Jinty etc) and these motors might do the trick with bevel gears. I have purchased one motor with a gearbox attached just to try out, and apparently its the 300RPM version. (£3.35 each with free post from UK supplier). The issue I can see is how to mount them in the chassis. I have the bevel gears as well to try out.

 

 

I used 300rpm in an industrial Beyer Garratt, and it feels about right. At least knowing the speed at which the wheels will revolve we can calculate the scale top speed, although I would counsel against going for something that requires full power because they can whine a bit at high speed. The efficient spur gearbox means they are very powerful and controllable at lower speeds.

[ROY@34F]

21 hours ago, hayfield said:

Roy

 

Sorry I cannot confirm what you have written, what I do know is that the bevel gears were far more efficient than worm gears, with the advent of smaller worms the issue is not so great, plus modern gearbox design is far better than the old motor mounts. The coreless motor seems very smooth, I still have a few bits to iron out with the chassis, but it is a bit of a test bed for the motor

 

 

I have used a High Level road runner gearbox. The motor needs to move forward a few mm to clear the firebox  backhead, I will swap the gearbox for a road runner plus

 

 

I have fitted pickups to the middle and rear wheels, the frame is much slimmer between the front and middle wheels, but as a  replacement for a Mashims motor it looks promising  

 

Thanks John for your reply .  I agree coreless are very smooth , powerful and quiet , so I hope it works out good for you , and that I'm wrong about the suitability of worms on coreless drive shafts . I'll be interested to see what you think of it . 

 

Regards , Roy .

[Ruston]

8 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I received some very nice  K20 motors with planetary gearboxes from China this morning which came with a hefty customs charge and even greater handling charge from the Post Office. It struck me though that lots of sanitation had to be applied using kitchen wipes which I did, but I wonder about the postman.

Cheers

I have bought motors direct from China maybe 5 or 6 times in the past few years and have never had to pay any postage at all, never mind a handling charge and customs charge. Is the charge because you were paying postage anyway, or have things changed recently that mean we now have to pay these charges on things coming from China ,even if they are said to be free postage?

[Stanley Melrose]

As far as I am aware the original Escap and Faulhaber corelesss motors were not engineered to take end thrust which is why they were unsuitable for use with worm and cog gears.  It seems that now that the patents have expired, the Chinese motor makers have designed their products so that they can survive end thrust - hence their use in drones with propellers and even some model railway locomotives.  I cannot prove that they are superior to the Escap, Faulhaber and Maxxon products but they certainly are a great deal cheaper and worth considering for use with worm and cog transmissions.

 

All that said, if you want run-on or reversible drive, it is worth considering not using worm and cog unless the gears are specifically designed to have the low friction that reversible drive demands.

 

HTH,

 

Stan