North British 6-wheel van E738500

[nicktamarensis]

Attached is a photo of E738500, a NBR Cowlairs-built 6-wheel van dating from 1921.  Photo taken at Cambridge in 1952.

Has anyone got the correct diagram number, number built, survivors (if any) etc for this type please?

There were three types apparently, one with a 'flexible' wheelbase, another with a sliding centre axle and another with a rigid wheelbase .

Many thanks,

Nick.

Apologies, I posted this in error first on the modelling tips

[sir douglas]

info from "NBR wagons: some design aspects" published by the NBR study group

 

15 ton covered goods van 1904 NBR diag' 48, 50 built with flexible wheelbase, 25 built in 1920 with rigid wheelbase, no separate diag' number for the rigid shown, many flexibles were converted to rigid by LNER.

 

diag 40 drawing No 404W, rigid chassis version drawing No 1196W. 

[jim.snowdon]

Referring to Tatlow, Volume 3:-

 

The original vans, of which there 50 built in 1904 and a further 25 in 1909, were all equipped with a "flexible" wheelbase, which arrangement had the outer two wheelsets carried in a form of pony truck whose pivot was about 3' 6" inboard of the axle, allowing it to align the wheels better on curves. There were a further 25 built in 1921 to the same design, but with the outer axles fixed and the inner one allowed lateral sideplay, allocated NB diagram 123 / LNER diagram 44B. According to Tatlow, these had the centre axlegaurds were mounted outside the solebars.

 

The LNER started rebuilding some of the diagram 48 vans with rigid wheelbase around 1938, presumably because (as others had found out the hard way) the flexible outer axles did not behave in a predictable manner. These vans became LNER diagram 152B. There were, but 1947 9 vans left with the original flexible arrangements, and 21 rebuilt to rigid wheelbase.

 

At this point, the pictures start to contradict Tatlow, in as much as E738500 would originally have been NBR 38500, which Tatlow ascribes to diagram 123/44B, ie built with rigid wheelbase from new. However, the middle axlegaurds are patently inside the solebars, so Tatlow's assertion is questionable. What is evident from the picture, which also appears in Tatlow's book, is that the middle axlebox would appear to have substantially more clearance between it and the axleguard than the nearest, outer, one.

 

Jim

[Steamport Southport]

The closest I can find to one surviving was this grounded body of one to Diagram 44. Subsequently scrapped.

 

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=5864

 

 

 

Jason

[Phil Traxson]

Whilst researching these vans some/many years ago for a 7 mm resin kit, which I can still produce, the pattern maker came to the conclusion that the sliding axle and rigid type were one and the same. Also discovered that unless some sort of link was put in between the trucks on the flexible version the van waved in all directions and that the biggest problem was the need for vertical movement in the centre axle, as well as sideplay  in the rigid version as any uneven track on a curve caused it to see-saw on the centre axle with a tendency for the leading axle to attempt to go straight on. Nevertheless they can be built to work. If anyone fancies the challenge the kits are still available but need axle sets and bearings.

Phil Traxson

Port Wynnstay Models  

Edited June 4, 2019 by Phil Traxson
word missed out

[Steamport Southport]

Subsequent searching found this at the SRPS Bo'ness.

 

That's a bit more like it. So one does survive, but body only.

 

http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10050.htm

 

 

Jason

[jim.snowdon]

6 hours ago, Phil Traxson said:

Whilst researching these vans some/many years ago for a 7 mm resin kit, which I can still produce, the pattern maker came to the conclusion that the sliding axle and rigid type were one and the same. Also discovered that unless some sort of link was put in between the trucks on the flexible version the van waved in all directions and that the biggest problem was the need for vertical movement in the centre axle, as well as sideplay  in the rigid version as any uneven track on a curve caused it to see-saw on the centre axle with a tendency for the leading axle to attempt to go straight on. Nevertheless they can be built to work. If anyone fancies the challenge the kits are still available but need axle sets and bearings.

Phil Traxson

Port Wynnstay Models  

When those vans were built, engineers had very little real understanding of the wheel/rail interface. There were more than a few well-intentioned attempts, particularly in respect of tramways, to develop "steering " axles that would allow vehicles to get round tighter curves, yet still be stable on straight track. Some were more successful than others, but very few met with any real success. 

As far modelling these 6-wheel wagons is concerned, a convenient solution to getting them to cope with track irregularities lies in the inside bearing units available from Connoisseur models (with whom I have no connection, other than as a satisfied user).

 

Jim

[Phil Traxson]

Thanks for that info on availability of inside bearing units Jim. I'll have to have a look at those and either put a mention in the kit instructions or maybe see if I can purchase a bulk order from Connoisseur and include them in the kits as I have a couple of other 6 wheelers in my range as well, a C.R. 15 ton van and a C.R. milk truck.

 

Phil T.

[Wickham Green]

3 hours ago, Phil Traxson said:

Thanks for that info on availability of inside bearing units Jim. I'll have to have a look at those and either put a mention in the kit instructions or maybe see if I can purchase a bulk order from Connoisseur and include them in the kits as I have a couple of other 6 wheelers in my range as well, a C.R. 15 ton van and a C.R. milk truck.

 

Phil T.

For my 4mm Nu-Cast kit I used the Brassmasters ( so-called ) 'Cleminson' truck ................. the brasswork was a LOT less fiddle than the plastic bits as the ends needed totally rebuilding to get the stanchions correctly spaced !

[jwealleans]

Or just build it as a 4 wheeler and have the middle axle float.

 

There was a grounded body from one of these in the middle of Thirsk until last year when it was apparently destroyed as part of a new development.

[nicktamarensis]

Thank you very much gentlemen, I'm very much in your debt.   Most of the above info will be included as part of a caption for the photo which will appear at some point in British Railways Illustrated.   I'll make sure everyone will be credited for the info. given.

Thanks again,

Nick.

[jim.snowdon]

That photograph, which appears in both Tatlow's LNER Wagons Volume 3 and his earlier Pictorial Record of LNER Wagons, is credited to an A E West.

 

Apologies if you knew this already.

 

Jim

[nicktamarensis]

Thanks Jim.  Yes, I've been working through a batch of Ted West's scanned photo's for some while now.  Selections of these appear as on-going photo articles in British Railways Illustrated.   If I get stumped for info. this site with its knowledgeable crew is one I will always use to put me right!

Nick.