WIMorrison Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 Does anyone know how you can find out which CV number is changed when you change anything in Decoder Pro or how you find which page a particular CV is on? Whilst I find it a very useful program I do find it very frustrating when I cannot translate between the myriad of settings and a decoder manual which (mostly) doesn't use the same descriptions as used in DecoderPro and if it was possible to align the two sets of instruction then I think that would be extremely useful - and not just for me Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 The whole point of Decoder Pro is that you use it with without needing know what the actual CV numbers - has always seemed pretty clear to me on the various tabs what the functions are and where I have found a conflict with a manual that was easily understood in terms of different phrases being used. What decoder are you referring to Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted August 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 12, 2019 I’m not sure it applies/works in all the tabs in all the various decoder definition files, but often if you hover over a setting box a cv number is shown. Mostly I look in the cv tab most definitions have to work out what is what if I want/need to know, but it is long winded. Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted August 12, 2019 Author Share Posted August 12, 2019 45 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said: The whole point of Decoder Pro is that you use it with without needing know what the actual CV numbers - has always seemed pretty clear to me on the various tabs what the functions are and where I have found a conflict with a manual that was easily understood in terms of different phrases being used. What decoder are you referring to As an example where is CV57 on a Zimo MX622 set in the DecoderPro tabs structure I can also plod along without knowing what I am actually doing simply using the Decoder titles but that causes problems when you don't have DecoderPro available and you need to use the CV number, or in the example I quote you cannot find where in the rather confusing and sometimes illogical tabs a specific CV appears. Also, Zimo manuals provide much more information on a CV than is provided in DecoderPro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 12, 2019 One of the Decoder Pro tabs is simply a numerical list of CVs, if you have a specific one change it there surely? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 12, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Izzy said: I’m not sure it applies/works in all the tabs in all the various decoder definition files, but often if you hover over a setting box a cv number is shown. Mostly I look in the cv tab most definitions have to work out what is what if I want/need to know, but it is long winded. Izzy Most don't do that, they just give a (slightly) fuller description of what is being changed not the CV itself. Edited August 12, 2019 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 1 hour ago, njee20 said: One of the Decoder Pro tabs is simply a numerical list of CVs, if you have a specific one change it there surely? Yes, they should be listed. After a server failure, I learned the following: The roster is stored in a file called 'roster.xml' which contains all the basic settings you see when browsing the roster list. In the same folder is a sub-folder called 'roster'. In here is a separate .xml file for each loco (or multiple unit) your JMRI is aware of. They are in plain text so you should be able to find what you want. The CV list is at the end of the file. Don't change these files! I have never tried it & don't want to be responsible for causing your JMRI to lock up as a result. Change the required CV(s) on the loco & use JMRI to read the data back in again. You can view/move this folder from the options tab, so you can copy the entire folder to a USB drive. I recommend backing this up. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markw Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 57 minutes ago, melmerby said: Most don't do that, they just give a (slightly) fuller description of what is being changed not the CV itself. There is a preference setting to choose whether the CV number is displayed when you hover over them, some definitions written before this feature was added have the CV number in the notes, so if you are not seeing CV numbers for all settings you have the preference set to not display them. If you change a value the box changes colour (don't write to decoder) then change to the CV tab and scan through to see the corresponding CV colour change, this also works in reverse. Then when closing the window remember to choose not to save changes. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 9 hours ago, WIMorrison said: As an example where is CV57 on a Zimo MX622 set in the DecoderPro tabs structure I can also plod along without knowing what I am actually doing simply using the Decoder titles but that causes problems when you don't have DecoderPro available and you need to use the CV number, or in the example I quote you cannot find where in the rather confusing and sometimes illogical tabs a specific CV appears. Also, Zimo manuals provide much more information on a CV than is provided in DecoderPro The Zimo structure in DecoderPro is somewhat confused. Caused by years of evolution of the structure, with a handful of people trying to keep up with the rapid rate of change in Zimo features on their decoders. The fastest way I know to spot a CV to DecoderPro location is to edit the CV in the "CV" list, so its value goes "red", then quickly look at the various tabs to see what has changed red, and check the value. Not ideal, but it does work. You can, as with any part of JMRI, contribute to improve things; help rationalise the decoder file structure, add to the help tips, etc.. Its all open source and more contributors would help. The Zimo area would benefit from someone sitting down and re-doing the structure from the ground up. That's a big job, both technically getting things organised, and in getting the changes accepted. But until someone is prepared to do that, the current "make a small addition to what went before" approach will have to continue. - Nigel 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 13, 2019 8 hours ago, markw said: There is a preference setting to choose whether the CV number is displayed when you hover over them, some definitions written before this feature was added have the CV number in the notes, so if you are not seeing CV numbers for all settings you have the preference set to not display them. Thanks for that. It's a preference that I didn't know existed but found it after a bit of a trawl through the options. I would prefer if it was set by default, then like Iain I would know what changes are being made to what. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 13, 2019 10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said: They are in plain text so you should be able to find what you want. The CV list is at the end of the file. Don't change these files! I have never tried it & don't want to be responsible for causing your JMRI to lock up as a result. Change the required CV(s) on the loco & use JMRI to read the data back in again. You can view/move this folder from the options tab, so you can copy the entire folder to a USB drive. I recommend backing this up. Whilst I also don't wish to cause anyone's JMRI to die you should be able to edit the XMLs directly with no ill effects. Decoder pro is purely a front end for viewing and editing those XMLs, it's no different to opening a Word document in Notepad to edit it - next time you open it in Word it'll still have the changes made elsewhere. That said, clearly it won't have written any changes to the loco, so you'll still need to do that, ie it's a pointless exercise unless you want to just edit things like the name of the loco! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 I thought the descriptions of the various CVs in DP were those penned by whoever wrote the definition for that particular decoder, hence each decoder in the DP library would have its own definition file which was called up upon read of the decoder make and model. I base this assumption on the recent updating of Hornby TTS decoder definitions as the associated user manuals listing the functions were released. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted August 13, 2019 Author Share Posted August 13, 2019 Thanks all, it would seem to be as I feared that there isn’t a way to have get a lookup that enables me to find where a CV is located within DecoderPro though the suggestion for setting the CV in the preferences is very useful - still doesn’t help when you are looking for a CV though as you have to check a lot to find the one CV. i also take onboard Nigel’s suggestion of writing a new XML file - I may look into that in the future, unfortunately too much happening in personal life to find the time to do that currently - model railway hasn’t even been switched on for a week! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 There is a way to do it but you need to know a bit about how DecoderPro works. Each decoder has one or more definition files that apply to it in <JMRI install dir>/xml/decoders.... These define what is displayed and where it is displayed. In general a variable is defined and then added to a Pane for display. CV57 for Zimo is defined as "Dither frequency" in various files. The problem is that I cannot find any further reference to "Dither frequency" being added to a pane (Each pane is a tab in the programmer window). That could mean that CV57 isn't actually displayed or it could mean I don't know enough about DecoderPro these days Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted August 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 13, 2019 If you want a neater way to display XML files you can of course use an XML editor to see a more structured view. For Windows IMHO XML Notepad gives a nice display. e.g. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 19 hours ago, WIMorrison said: Thanks all, it would seem to be as I feared that there isn’t a way to have get a lookup that enables me to find where a CV is located within DecoderPro though the suggestion for setting the CV in the preferences is very useful - still doesn’t help when you are looking for a CV though as you have to check a lot to find the one CV. i also take onboard Nigel’s suggestion of writing a new XML file - I may look into that in the future, unfortunately too much happening in personal life to find the time to do that currently - model railway hasn’t even been switched on for a week! You'll find the decoder files for any reasonably recent Zimo decoders are made of sub-components within a directory, which are stitched together with include statements as the decoder is called up. Anything for JMRI releases has to cope with Zimo releasing lots of unique decoders (each has ID's which mean the hardware can be identified) which can be loaded with lots of different versions of firmware. So the combination explosion is huge. Your local copy of data for a particular loco is held in a single file. 17 hours ago, Crosland said: There is a way to do it but you need to know a bit about how DecoderPro works. Each decoder has one or more definition files that apply to it in <JMRI install dir>/xml/decoders.... These define what is displayed and where it is displayed. In general a variable is defined and then added to a Pane for display. CV57 for Zimo is defined as "Dither frequency" in various files. The problem is that I cannot find any further reference to "Dither frequency" being added to a pane (Each pane is a tab in the programmer window). That could mean that CV57 isn't actually displayed or it could mean I don't know enough about DecoderPro these days This is a common issue within JMRI decoder file across multiple decoder makers. The JMRI default "panes" for things like motor control contain various terms which were appropriate for the decoders "way back when someone wrote this". The writer of a particular decoder file is faced with a dilemma: do they write the decoder file to use the standard panes (which would appear as blank panes for some JMRI settings if they were ignored and empty), or do they write custom panes for almost everything ? If they use the standard panes, then they have to use the terms in those panes ( sort of "abuse" those terms!). Which means that the CV is "mis-described" to get it to appear on the correct pane, though the label on the pane should be correct. CV57 of Zimo is one of those which uses the "standard pane" terms to get it onto the appropriate "Motor" pane in the display. The label is correctly set ("Voltage Reference"). The pane ("MotorPane.xml") is found in xml\programmers\parts and has "Dither frequency" as the sixth item. Yes, its a long way from ideal. But fixing it means writing and changing a lot of stuff, possibly the way details are defined for all decoders, and making that change in a way which doesn't break anyone's previously saved decoders. - Nigel 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Right Away Posted August 15, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2019 I don't have Decoder Pro, so I probably have no place commenting on this post - indeed I may be talking "out of my hat" and for this I apologise. However, I do appreciate the need for users to be able to see the particular CV which is being addressed without having to "hover" when using these programs. The inability to do so does sound somewhat limiting if/when cross-referencing with other documentation and perhaps seeking assistance from others who are knowledgeable but might only be able to advise on a "CV only" basis. Maybe in the not too distant future all DCC programming will be implemented without reference or knowledge of CVs and their attributes, which would be extremely user friendly for everyone. For the time being I must remain a Luddite and soldier on with my trusty old Lenz system, interspersed with the odd bit of binary. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 It does have a page listing all CVs so you can edit them directly if someone has given you a list of changes. I used this to restore settings to a loco after someone at the club had changed things with NCE's momentum button. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJGraphics Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) Possibly straying a little bit from the OP, but I have a question about the display of CVs in the list in DecoderPro. I use DecoderPro on my Mac connected to my ECoS 50200 and it pretty much meets my needs when tinkering with my locos which are all fitted with ESU Loksound V4 decoders from various suppliers. I have been able to do things like adding the auto-uncoupling shuffle, move F keys around to make things as consistent as reasonably possible across my stud and make various adjustments to "fine tune" the running and sounds using the various setting panes without difficulty. I believe I understand that CVs above 255 are indexed and I know that if for example, I want to change CV451 (Random sound volume on a particular project) via my ECoS that I set CV32 to 1, change CV457 to the value I want and then set CV32 to 0. What I’m struggling to get my head around is the relationship between CVs above 255 and the numbers I see listed in the DecoderPro CV list such as 16.1.451, 16.2.451 and 16.3.451. Can someone explain in straightforward terms what the relationship between actual CVs and the index values is, please? John Edited August 15, 2019 by JJGraphics Edited to clarify. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 36 minutes ago, JJGraphics said: Possibly straying a little bit from the OP, but I have a question about the display of CVs in the list in DecoderPro. I use DecoderPro on my Mac connected to my ECoS 50200 and it pretty much meets my needs when tinkering with my locos which are all fitted with ESU Loksound V4 decoders from various suppliers. I have been able to do things like adding the auto-uncoupling shuffle, move F keys around to make things as consistent as reasonably possible across my stud and make various adjustments to "fine tune" the running and sounds using the various setting panes without difficulty. I believe I understand that CVs above 255 are indexed and I know that if for example, I want to change CV451 (Random sound volume on a particular project) via my ECoS that I set CV32 to 1, change CV457 to the value I want and then set CV32 to 0. What I’m struggling to get my head around is the relationship between CVs above 255 and the numbers I see listed in the DecoderPro CV list such as 16.1.451, 16.2.451 and 16.3.451. Can someone explain in straightforward terms what the relationship between actual CVs and the index values is, please? They are the indexing CVs, which are CV31 and CV32 then actual CV number. Indexing extends the number of CV's in a decoder to many thousands (theoretically millions). For a LokSound V4 when indexing is used, CV31 is always 16, and CV32 can vary. CV451 appears several times in the LokSound V4 manual, with different index values. Each of them represent different things. On its own "CV451" means nothing, as it could be any of three different things. Only with the index values is the purpose of CV451 made clear. So, the numbers you're seeing are CV31=16, CV32=1 (or 2 or 3) and CV451. With a value associated with that combination. CV32=1 and CV451 is the random sound volume CV32=2 and CV451 is within line 13 in the Function Map - condition block C, which is for function keys F6 through F9 when applied to that line. CV32=3 and CV451 is within line 29 in the Function Map - condition block C. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJGraphics Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 OK, thanks. I'll have apply and see if I can make sense of that. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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