First Group wins the West Coast.

[melmerby]

13 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Well that lasted a long time....

 

https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/43041/firstgroup-and-government-agree-deal-to-end-two-rail-franchises/

 

(For some reason the link doesn't work on my PC browser, but is OK on my phone....)

 

Avanti have handed back the WCML and First are giving up South Western.

 

 

Changing to management contracts instead, which I feel is the way it is going.

[Kris]

10 hours ago, newbryford said:

Well that lasted a long time....

 

https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/43041/firstgroup-and-government-agree-deal-to-end-two-rail-franchises/

 

(For some reason the link doesn't work on my PC browser, but is OK on my phone....)

 

The franchises for Avanti WC and First South Western have been scrapped and will probably become management contracts on behalf of DfT

 

 

Given Covid it feels like these companies are more the victims of circumstance than mismanagement (or over bidding) as has been the case in the past 

[woodenhead]

First of the Avanti IEPs under test

 

They might not currently need all their 390s because of their train crew shortage but they must intend to get there one day

 

 

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

First of the Avanti IEPs under test

 

They might not currently need all their 390s because of their train crew shortage but they must intend to get there one day

 

 

The Liverpools are retimed for '80x on electric' timings from December, instead of using Class 390 timings.

[melmerby]

How are these 805s & 807s able to run at 125mph without tilt when that was why the Pendos were procured in the first place?

[rab]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

First of the Avanti IEPs under test

 

They might not currently need all their 390s because of their train crew shortage but they must intend to get there one day

 

 

I can just see the ebay listing now:

Track tested, good slow runner in both directions!

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, rab said:

I can just see the ebay listing now:

Track tested, good slow runner in both directions!

Only out of the box to photograph

[woodenhead]

54 minutes ago, melmerby said:

How are these 805s & 807s able to run at 125mph without tilt when that was why the Pendos were procured in the first place?

Because rail technology and also non high speed train minimum speeds have changed since the 390s were specced.

 

As all trains average higher speeds they have been able to alter the cant on curves to the benefit of non tilting trains at 125.

 

https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2022/07/13-first-glimpse-of-avanti-west.html

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

How are these 805s & 807s able to run at 125mph without tilt when that was why the Pendos were procured in the first place?

They aren't yet. The MU speed profile has not been signed off yet.

 

Liverpool will still be 390s from December btw, just the sectional running times will reflect the anticipated 80x performance.

[hexagon789]

26 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Because rail technology and also non high speed train minimum speeds have changed since the 390s were specced.

 

As all trains average higher speeds they have been able to alter the cant on curves to the benefit of non tilting trains at 125.

 

https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2022/07/13-first-glimpse-of-avanti-west.html

Hasn't happened yet, the new MU speed profile has not been signed off yet.

 

The WCML remains 110mph non-tilt currently.

Edited November 4, 2022 by hexagon789

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Hasn't happened yet, the new MU speed profile has not been signed off yet.

 

The WCML remains 110mph non-tilt currently.

I guess fast trains to Liverpool are not high on the current administration's agenda, it's all about Manchester.

[hexagon789]

10 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I guess fast trains to Liverpool are not high on the current administration's agenda, it's all about Manchester.

The long term plan with the 80x was for a second Liverpool train per hour.

 

That would be 807. Additionally the revised hourly Birmingham stopper would be 807. The other two Birminghams being revised into a half-hourly pattern and running mostly fast. That replaces the every 20 mins semi-fast approach Virgin introduced.

 

The Liverpool fast would remain 390 but as the second train per hour is nowhere near being introduced, the stopping patterns have all been revised for this December to reflect what can be provided and as part of that the Liverpools run in the paths of the future second service, as bizarre as that sounds, because of stopping pattern.

Edited November 5, 2022 by hexagon789

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, rab said:

I can just see the ebay listing now:

Track tested, good slow runner in both directions!

Nose cone missing, hence bargain price.

[APOLLO]

WCML all up the chute today, well, every day recently.

 

We don't need swank new trains, we just want the existing, quite acceptable Pendolinos running, and on time.

 

Daughter goes Wigan - Lancaster daily, the service is going worse  by the week, a ray of sunshine the strikes are off next week.

 

Brit15

[hexagon789]

9 hours ago, APOLLO said:

We don't need swank new trains, we just want the existing, quite acceptable Pendolinos running, and on time.

To be fair, the 805s and 807s replace the Super Voyagers, and allow for service expansion not replacement of the Pendolinos.

[woodenhead]

4 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

To be fair, the 805s and 807s replace the Super Voyagers, and allow for service expansion not replacement of the Pendolinos.

But it appears due to industrial relations not linked to the wider RMT matters that First have gone backwards on both West Coast and Trans Pennine such that neither is able to run a full service.  First call it a strike, the train crew call it working their hours, the new Avanti drivers recruited back in early 2022 are due to be driving from December which sounds to me like they've been cutting numbers or delaying recruitment and expecting existing crew to pick up the gaps leading to a collapse in relations.

 

If these drivers get Avanti back to where they were, then even more drivers must be needed to expand the service and make full use of the new IEPs.

 

I am just glad that my day to day role no longer requires me to go to London on a regular basis via the WCML.

[The Stationmaster]

52 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But it appears due to industrial relations not linked to the wider RMT matters that First have gone backwards on both West Coast and Trans Pennine such that neither is able to run a full service.  First call it a strike, the train crew call it working their hours, the new Avanti drivers recruited back in early 2022 are due to be driving from December which sounds to me like they've been cutting numbers or delaying recruitment and expecting existing crew to pick up the gaps leading to a collapse in relations.

 

If these drivers get Avanti back to where they were, then even more drivers must be needed to expand the service and make full use of the new IEPs.

 

I am just glad that my day to day role no longer requires me to go to London on a regular basis via the WCML.

It has been fairly obvious ever since Avanti's problems become known that they simply didn't have enough Drivers and were relying on Rest Day working to fill the gap.  That is plainly a symptom of poor management - either they didn't take proper account of age profiles and were caught out by retirement levels or they just plain didn't bother to recruit to cover general wastage or additional services in order to save money.  

 

Blaming it on unions and calling staff not volunteering to work Rest Days 'industrial action' was just plain managerial stupidity that can be very quickly seen through by anyone with an inkiling of understanding the real situation.  I have also wondered quite how they were managing their (Mr Justice) Hidden (recommendation) 18 monitoring and enforcement if they were having to use so much Rest day working on the part of safety critical staff and they must have been very lucky that they didn't have the Inspectorate sniffing round and asking some very pertinent questions about number of days continuous duty etc.  Maybe, and worryingly, Hidden 18 is a lesson which has been lost in some parts of the industry as those familiar with it have left?

[rodent279]

14 hours ago, APOLLO said:

We don't need swank new trains, we just want the existing, quite acceptable Pendolinos running, and on time.

Stop it, I'm almost starting to feel nostalgic about Pendos.....😲

[woodenhead]

The gap between availability and requirements must be massive if the Manchester service was back at hourly, felt like a return to the 1970s.

[Wheatley]

43 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Maybe, and worryingly, Hidden 18 is a lesson which has been lost in some parts of the industry as those familiar with it have left?

Covered by Sec 25 of ROGS now, which replaces the now withdrawn Group Standard. In theory each employer sets their own limits in line with the ROGS guidance, in practice I suspect any agreed with ASLEF will look a lot like, or at least be no worse than, Hidden 18. 

 

Hidden wasn't a magic bullet though  In the1990s  I had a signalman on 95 consecutive turns of duty and my oppo on the Tyne Valley had one over  a hundred, because we each had a 30-40% vacancy gap. Both of us were already working 06-10 at one box and 18-22 at another (with normal duties as best we could in between) so we could roster the regular man 12 hours and use the RDRs as GPRs to cover vacancies. It was authorised at ROM level. 

[lmsforever]

I think back to when Virgin ran the WCML  reliable services happy staff certain people did not like Branson and tried every dirty trick to get rid of him and finally did leaving us with appalling services.Avanti should have been kicked out and an operation like LNER   brought in at least the money would go to the right place and not abroad and the staff treated properly Scotland has taken a big step forward in nationalising the network and I think it will work as it is a relatively small country .Having used Scotrail many times the staff seem  happy and will I am sure find life better under the new regime.  Lastly I remember traveling to Scotland not long after Avanti had taken over , what a difference in first class gone friendly happy catering staff replaced with young people who looked scuffy and had no idea of customer service if this was progress no thank you.

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

I think back to when Virgin ran the WCML  reliable services happy staff certain people did not like Branson and tried every dirty trick to get rid of him and finally did leaving us with appalling services.Avanti should have been kicked out and an operation like LNER   brought in at least the money would go to the right place and not abroad and the staff treated properly Scotland has taken a big step forward in nationalising the network and I think it will work as it is a relatively small country .Having used Scotrail many times the staff seem  happy and will I am sure find life better under the new regime.  Lastly I remember traveling to Scotland not long after Avanti had taken over , what a difference in first class gone friendly happy catering staff replaced with young people who looked scuffy and had no idea of customer service if this was progress no thank you.

First Group is a UK company.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstGroup

 

It's still an appalling service with Trans Pennine also impacted at present with regards service provision which sounds like more of the same by the same group.

[Legend]

11 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

 Scotland has taken a big step forward in nationalising the network and I think it will work as it is a relatively small country .Having used Scotrail many times the staff seem  happy and will I am sure find life better under the new regime.  

You mean when they are not on strike .  I think they are striking Fridays and Saturdays in the run up to Christmas . Obviously they hope that pressure will be brought by retailers who are going to lose out on the Christmas Trade . More empty high streets next year  . Believe me it’s not all rosy north of the border . 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

First Group is a UK company.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstGroup

 

 

Trenitalia isn't.

 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, lmsforever said:

I think back to when Virgin ran the WCML  reliable services happy staff

Really?

All I remember was overcrowded trains running late.