HS2 under review

[melmerby]

Has anybody seen this?:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21231044

 

Makes interesting reading. Sorry if it's already been posted.

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

Regarding the location of Parkway stations.

 

Bristol Parkway is over five and a half miles from Temple Meads and the centre of Bristol.

When it was built I believe it was principally built as an interchange station between cross country services

and London-South Wales trains, and not as an 'origin' or 'destination' station, however many people now start journeys there.

 

There are many areas of the Greater Bristol area for whom Parkway station is more convenient.

I know people from here in Weston who when  needing to make an early start for London or the north

will regularly drive to Bristol Parkway rather than Temple Meads as the access and parking is easier.

 

cheers

 

edited (to add relevance!)

No - the clue to the reason for building the station there lies in its name.  It was intended from the outset as an out-of-city-centre station which would encourage people to use the train because they did not have to drive into the centre of Bristol or to take the train instead of the motorway because, again, road access was easy and parking plentiful (once upon a time).

 

It was implicit in the layout and design of the station that it was not seen as an interchange point but simply one where people would either join or leave a train having parked their car at the station.  The subsequent development of it as an interchange point - seemingly nowadays encouraged by 'Journey Planner' is purely incidental.

 

The idea of 'parkway' style stations on HS2 seems to be based on the same hypothesis - people will be prepared to drive to out-of-centre railway stations in the same way as, say, they often seem more prepared to drive to out-of-centre shopping centres than they are to drive into the centre of large towns or cities.  Thus such stations can work to attract people away from long distance car journeys, simply because of their convenient accessibility.  Although obviously the passenger's destination can also be influential on their decision making process as well.

[Joseph_Pestell]

We're now getting into the realm of high pedantry. In general, people vote for the MP that represents their party of choice (tactical/protest voting etc aside). This returns a party mix of MPs and this ultimately shapes the ruling party/ies.

 

Only for Westminister elections - some of us get to vote for people AND parties

 

This is not the place for this discussion. So I will just say that this is far from idle pedantry. It's key to the wholly non-democratic way that we are governed in this country and to much of the long-term failures of consistent policy on major projects such as HS2 (and indeed transport in general).

[griffgriff]

Fares... mmm I wonder how much a fare will cost on one of these things in rip off Britain?  An AVE ticket is about the most expensive thing you can buy in Spain (although the cost doesn't seem to harm passenger numbers) 

 

... which kinda brings me to competition.  Much has been said about HS2 and capacity but there will be many who will find slower but cheaper trains attractive and popular, trains will surely be provided for them so the lines will probably be just as busy then as they are now

[Fat Controller]

No - the clue to the reason for building the station there lies in its name.  It was intended from the outset as an out-of-city-centre station which would encourage people to use the train because they did not have to drive into the centre of Bristol or to take the train instead of the motorway because, again, road access was easy and parking plentiful (once upon a time).

 

It was implicit in the layout and design of the station that it was not seen as an interchange point but simply one where people would either join or leave a train having parked their car at the station.  The subsequent development of it as an interchange point - seemingly nowadays encouraged by 'Journey Planner' is purely incidental.

 

The idea of 'parkway' style stations on HS2 seems to be based on the same hypothesis - people will be prepared to drive to out-of-centre railway stations in the same way as, say, they often seem more prepared to drive to out-of-centre shopping centres than they are to drive into the centre of large towns or cities.  Thus such stations can work to attract people away from long distance car journeys, simply because of their convenient accessibility.  Although obviously the passenger's destination can also be influential on their decision making process as well.

My recollection is that the idea of 'interchange' at Bristol Parkway, at least in terms of crossing the platform to change trains, was impossible until fairly recently, as there was only one platform face in each direction. One arrived on one train (Swansea- Paddington, for example), then waited for a West Country -North-East one. Any delays to either could really mess up your journey.

I was at what was then Bristol Poly's Coldharbour lane site in 1975/6, when Parkway was quite new; it stood in the middle of car parks and green fields, with an old church and vicarage nearby. Buses to/from either Bristol (I lived off Gloucester Road) or the Poly were non-existent, neither were there pavements. One either took one's life in one's hands walking at the side of the road, or got very muddy walking down the verge. I was astonished when I visited the area a few years back to see how much devopment had taken place.

[Ron Ron Ron]

With Eurostars no longer required for tunnel services they could be replaced with higher capacity trains and moved to HS2 for the extension services. A ready made solution if they are not worn out by then.

 

 

They are looking pretty clapped-out now. Would help if they cleaned them a bit more often.

 

But otherwise, an idea that has legs.

 

Eurostars ?

That's a train operating company not a train.

 

Eurostar's Class 373's, which are now between 18 and 20 years old, are currently undergoing a mid-life overhaul, refurbishment and update (they were previously been refurbished in the last decade - 2004/2005 at around 10 years old).

The first set to be completed will be seen sporting the new Eurostar livery in the near future. The whole fleet is expected to be completed by the end of 2014.

 

This program should enable the Class 373 fleet to operate beyond 2020, before being retired just after mid-way through that decade.

That's around the time that phase 1 of HS2 (London - Birmingham) is expected to be opened (2026/27).

By then, Eurostar will have re-equipped with new generation trains, either more of their new Seimens Velaro's, or more likely a later design.

 

 

.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Ron Ron Ron

[Leicester Thumper]

To be honest, I think HS2 is somewhat going to undermine the usage of the MML passenger wise which will have an effect on the economies of Leicester and other surrounding cities where HS2 isn't going near or connecting with. I also don't understand the point of putting the station at Toton? (I haven't read the whole lot cause 20 pages drags a bit anyway...) Toton is a bloomin' Freight yard and TMD, why build a station in a grubby area which isn't particularly near to anything?

 

In my eyes, if Beeching never existed or made decisions, however he did it, then I would dare say that the Great central line would still be open today and possibly have even been electrified and upgraded. When you think about it, what is HS2 essentially? a line up the middle. The GC would have been perfect... ah well...

 

the other scary thought is that phase 1 should be completed when I am about 44!!! 

[cary hill]

I've decided the very few miles of HS2 which pass through the corner of NW Leicestershire will probably pass the NIMBY test, although there are a few people, such as the local MP to convince, who has noted that HS2 will pass "outside the front door" of his home and also pass very close to his business. Strange that he has not remarked that the A42/M42 also does exactly the same.

 

On a more serious note - how wide is the planning "corridor of uncertainty" associated with HS2? See below:

 

 

This the business concerned and there is a planning permission application for a factory extension due to go in shortly. Surely this far enough away to avoid planning blight?

 

I also noted that this leg of HS2 will pass within a couple of miles or so of the primitive Swannington Incline (opened 1832) and it seems somehow appropriate that this leg of HS2 might open in 2032 -exactly 200 years later.

[Kris]

I can't see a business being fussed about the building of the line.

 

Below is an example of the blight already happening.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-21248717

[Re6/6]

Reference post #508 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01q8ndt/You_and_Yours_Call_You_and_Yours_What_will_the_HS2_do_for_you/

[Edwin_m]

Like the man said in relation to Dent (I may have the quote wrong, words to the effect of)

 

"We put the station there so it was next to the railway". 

[Glorious NSE]

Below is an example of the blight already happening.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-21248717

 

I could afford it if it was that much....

[2ManySpams]

Like many others I had a good look at the route plans because the route passes within a mile of my house. I'm also a civil engineer and, looking at the route objectively, I think the one chosen through my patch makes sense from that point of view. Thankfully the line will be in a 13m deep cutting near us but I certainly feel for the folk who will be next to Measham Viaduct! I've also had a good look at the engineering options report and I'm really glad that the massive embankment option to the East of the village was dropped. 

 

What has surprised me though are the number of locations where major roads such as the M42, A42 and M1 are being moved out of the way / 'realigned' so that HS2 can be squeezed in. I'm sure the Highways Agency will have something to say though about some of these 'indicative' adjustments though! 

 

Talking about blight, we already get noise from the M42/A42 and that's about a mile away. It's never really bothered me. Personal choice, but I find the stench from AB Produce's settling ponds far worse and significantly harder to ignore...pity HS2 won't be going directly through that site...

 

The really sobering thought though is that I'll be approaching retirement when HS2 opens! 

[frobisher]

 

... which kinda brings me to competition. Much has been said about HS2 and capacity but there will be many who will find slower but cheaper trains attractive and popular, trains will surely be provided for them so the lines will probably be just as busy then as they are now

You're saying that like it's not a good result? HS2 is about providing extra capacity. The WCML should still remain as busy as it is now, just that the mix of traffic on it will be different.

[rob D2]

Although this topic veers dangerously towards politics, I would be intrigued to learn how having a fast link to the North will re balalance the nation's wealth and provide more jobs.....is it just that those N of the SE will be able to get there quicker for 'all' of the massive buoyant job market there is there now.....

 

I'm not a fan of the term NIMBY as it's paraded around like some sort of medical condition, when in actual fact why should anyone's house, lifestyle or view 'take one for the team'...

I sure as heck am outraged at the destruction of my beloved Chilterns although I don't live there anymore

[trisonic]

Except there are just as many Nimbys up North.

 

Best, Pete.

[DerekEm8]

Except there are just as many Nimbys up North.

 

Best, Pete.

Pete,

 

By North do you mean North of Watford ? :no:

[Armchair Modeller]

Although this topic veers dangerously towards politics, I would be intrigued to learn how having a fast link to the North will re balalance the nation's wealth and provide more jobs.....is it just that those N of the SE will be able to get there quicker for 'all' of the massive buoyant job market there is there now.....

 

I'm not a fan of the term NIMBY as it's paraded around like some sort of medical condition, when in actual fact why should anyone's house, lifestyle or view 'take one for the team'...

I sure as heck am outraged at the destruction of my beloved Chilterns although I don't live there anymore

 

Difficult to reconcile the emotions attached to a slim feature that will quickly blend into the landscape, with the things that really blight the Chilterns - like Wycombe, for example.

[4630]

 

 

I'm not a fan of the term NIMBY as it's paraded around like some sort of medical condition, when in actual fact why should anyone's house, lifestyle or view 'take one for the team'...

I sure as heck am outraged at the destruction of my beloved Chilterns although I don't live there anymore

 

But isn't that the problem with any infrastructure project ?

 

Human nature means that there can never be consensus as someones 'perfect little world' gets changed and the debate becomes filled with emotive language.  I'm sure the Chilterns are beautiful, but is 'destruction' really the right description?  And if the Chilterns are 'saved' from 'destruction', should not also those other parts of this 'green and pleasant land' along the proposed route for HS2 be similarly treated?

 

It's a bit rich for those living in parts of the country with relatively good transport links (and where funds to which we all contribute through national taxes continue to be made available for new projects) to deny or delay those living 'north of Watford' the same opportunity.

 

My concern with HS2 is not the route but the prolonged timescale for its construction which in a supposedly advanced economy in the 21st century is nothing short of a joke.  

[APOLLO]

I sure as heck am outraged at the destruction of my beloved Chilterns

 

Whats so special about the Chilterns ? Just because it's a high cost area ?

 

Every square foot of england is someones beloved land. Progress is unstoppable, and future generations will need this infrastructure as there will be fewer travel alternatives as the cost (and availiability) of oil ever increases.

 

Dare we deny our offspring (and there future ones also) this infrastructure based on our selfishness and personal perception of beauty.

 

Take a look at the Settle and Carlisle, or indeed the electrified line over Shap & Beattock. Railways ADD to the landscape, (if you deny that you probably should not be on this site). There are also many areas of beauty with no railways which will never have one, Chilterns included, - so not all is being "ruined".

 

What about my beloved Wigan ? A dirty great new Maintainence depot planned on beautiful flowery fields alongside former colliery slag heaps a couple of miles to the south where very rare great crested newts live !!.

 

On another site mention is made of a "Pinch Point" at Wigan - the WCML is 2 track from Wigan NW to Standish - 3 or so miles, where the 4 track formation starts (It's actually 2 track for a few miles north, but very easilly 4 tracked from Standish). The LNWR proposed 4 tracking Wigan to Standish, and a couple of bridges have abutments were built for 4 tracks. It was not done as there existed then the (now abandoned) Whelley loop line from Bamfurlong to Standish.

 

I had a look this morning having a walk to the post office, from Spencer Rd bridge you can clearly see a mile south to Wigan NW and north to Boars Head, there is still room for 4 tracks without to great a disruption. May get done, may not, this line is 100yards from my beloved bit of Wigan, would I object ? - Hell NO - Bring it on - and quickly. (The newts can come and live in my garden !).

 

Brit15

[RedgateModels]

Take a look at the Settle and Carlisle, or indeed the electrified line over Shap & Beattock. Railways ADD to the landscape, (if you deny that you probably should not be on this site). 

 

Probably the most relevant post on the matter for a while

[bigd]

 On another site mention is made of a "Pinch Point" at Wigan - the WCML is 2 track from Wigan NW to Standish - 3 or so miles, where the 4 track formation starts (It's actually 2 track for a few miles north, but very easilly 4 tracked from Standish). The LNWR proposed 4 tracking Wigan to Standish, and a couple of bridges have abutments were built for 4 tracks. It was not done as there existed then the (now abandoned) Whelley loop line from Bamfurlong to Standish.

 Brit15

 

Bring back the Whelley lines.

If HS2 was to link to them, then they could bypass Wigan!

Edited January 30, 2013 by bigd

[Fenman]

... which kinda brings me to competition.  Much has been said about HS2 and capacity but there will be many who will find slower but cheaper trains attractive and popular

 

I would have thought that, too, but the evidence doesn't seem to support us; for example, how many people travelling to Liverpool use London Midland services rather than Virgin? What proportion of passengers take the Southern service from Victoria to Southampton (via Gatwick Airport) rather than using (quicker, more expensive) SWT from Waterloo? The latter comparison is intriguing since it takes about an hour longer via Southern, but is usually at least £25 cheaper. The vast majority of people don't earn £25 an hour, yet the vast majority use the SWT service.

 

There must be data available now for the relative proportions of people using HS1 for London-Kent Coast services rather than cheaper and slower "classic" services? That should give an idea as to whether or not you are correct.

 

Paul

[APOLLO]

Bring back the Whelley lines.

If HS2 was to link to them, then they could bypass Wigan!

 

Indeed they could. The old Whelley route exists as a footpath, but the route is still mostly there. A large viaduct across the Douglas valley near Boars Head would need rebuilding. Also the route in general has no sharp curves. Gradients seem not to be an issue.

 

Somebody in Network Rail knows things we don't though. Just down from my house is the Old Whitley crossing, a footpath over the WCML. The foot crossing was replaced with a large and grand footbridge around 10 years ago. This footbridge was clearly built to span 4 tracks. Similarly the nearby Spencer Road overbridge built 25 - 30 years ago, again room for 4 tracks.

 

 

I doubt rebuilding the Whelley loop - but - you never know !!

 

Brit15 

Edited January 30, 2013 by APOLLO

[clecklewyke]

Take a look at the Settle and Carlisle, or indeed the electrified line over Shap & Beattock. Railways ADD to the landscape,

 

Brit15

Hear, hear!

 

Shap and the Lune Gorge with only the railway were wonderful - lonely, quiet, brooding and beautiful.

 

And now, with the M6 alongside? Ruined.

 

And I think that the M40 did far more damage to the Chilterns than HS2 will.

 

Motorways cause far more noise, pollution and damage to the landscape than railways.