HS2 under review

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, lmsforever said:

 I am not making it up Italy has more space for new roads and railways  than the UK,  have you not heard of free speech I don't like this project but if you supporters had your way we would be barred from this thread.I will keep on picking up bad practice and bullying by the company.I suggest you have a look at whats been going on at Calvert the people there were being pushed aside but they fought back and made HS2 stop doing the desecration.Wild life is important in the UK and the contractors have been taking liberties and have been stopped.     I saw in the local paper that the bridge over the A413 outside of Wendover will stop the road being widened when asked about this the council were told that's it cant be changed.So keep expecting me to have my say   I DONT MAKE UP NOTIFICATIONS

Have you been to Italy? Italian railways have somewhat ove 50% of their lines either on viaducts or in tunnels; hardly propitious conditions for railway building. Maximum freight train length is just over half that of the UK at 450m (vice 750m), simply because there are few places (outside of the plains of Lombardy) where loops to accommodate longer trains can be constructed

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

Have you been to Italy? Italian railways have somewhat ove 50% of their lines either on viaducts or in tunnels; hardly propitious conditions for railway building. Maximum freight train length is just over half that of the UK at 450m (vice 750m), simply because there are few places (outside of the plains of Lombardy) where loops to accommodate longer trains can be constructed

The fact that Italy has a substantial mountain range running down the spine (Appenines) and an even more substantial mountain range running across the top (Alps) means it has less usable land (as a percentage) for most things.

e.g. 70% of the UK is agricultural land, 44% in Italy.

[Richard E]

17 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

To be fair Locoholic was not suggesting a further upgrade - he was suggesting HS2 be built to classic British Standards (i.e. 125mph max and a few intermediate stations between London and Birmingham).

 

While such a railway would indeed provide lots of extra capacity - at the same time it would be a classic case of artificially constraining things / not future proofing for no good reason.

 

Its worth noting the effects of this on the roads - the A14 is a key east - west highway heavily used by lorries etc. but to save money even the brand new bits were built as a dual carriageway complete with footpaths and bridleways routed across it on the flat. Further sections are dogged by at grade junctions with side roads due to it being an online upgrade. Oh and because its not a motorway farm vehicles, cyclists and pedestrians can legally use it

 

Now on the face of things the cynics would say building it on the cheap (and not as a proper offline Motorway throughout) saved loads of cash and provided 90% of the benefits. However if you look a little deeper you spot the flaws which have become more significant as has traffic built up  (e.g. only 2 lanes so lots of 'elephant racing' as trucks slowly overtake each other, Pedestrians avoiding footpaths due to the danger of crossing such a busy + fast flowing road on the level, the presence of tractors and other slow moving vehicles causing hold ups, etc).

 

Had the A14 (and other roads like the A42, A34, etc) been built as proper motorways, many of their defects wouldn't exist and as a result they would flow better plus have a higher capacity (which could be further increased by using the 'Smart motorway' principle to provide further lanes.

 

HS2 is being built to proven LGV principles precisely to ensure it doesn't suffer from the railway equivalent of the defects found on the likes of the A14. Yes initially its enhanced features (such as the ability to cope with double deck trains) may seem expensive - but just as a hard shoulder on a motorway can be upgraded to a running lane later, being able to add double deck trains to boost capacity is a useful tool to have available.

 

 

 

 

And we are now spending massive amounts of money upgrading the A14 between Cambridge and the A1 due to exactly the shortcomings detailed above. Which is better, build it adequately in the first place or build it twice to save a little bit of cost initially with that saving totally negated by the later upgrade?

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, Richard E said:

And we are now spending massive amounts of money upgrading the A14 between Cambridge and the A1 due to exactly the shortcomings detailed above. Which is better, build it adequately in the first place or build it twice to save a little bit of cost initially with that saving totally negated by the later upgrade?

Maybe if they sell that rare Roman coin they found in the roadworks,  it will help offset some of the costs

 

The problem in the UK has been and always will be short termism

e.g. the current rush of "Smart Motorway" construction works.

Another of those catchy hrases that hides the disaster of what is being done.

We were told that a hard shoulder was absolutely essential for safe operation of a M way yet here we are turning them all into (narrow) running lanes, in operation seemingly all the time, rather than the "busy periods only" claim. I haven't noticed any improvement on the M6 around Birmingham since the works were done but there seem to be more reports of broken down vehicles affecting the the traffic (presumably on the ex-hard shoulder), where they normally wouldn't have been a problem.

[black and decker boy]

37 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Maybe if they sell that rare Roman coin they found in the roadworks,  it will help offset some of the costs

 

The problem in the UK has been and always will be short termism

e.g. the current rush of "Smart Motorway" construction works.

Another of those catchy hrases that hides the disaster of what is being done.

We were told that a hard shoulder was absolutely essential for safe operation of a M way yet here we are turning them all into (narrow) running lanes, in operation seemingly all the time, rather than the "busy periods only" claim. I haven't noticed any improvement on the M6 around Birmingham since the works were done but there seem to be more reports of broken down vehicles affecting the the traffic (presumably on the ex-hard shoulder), where they normally wouldn't have been a problem.

Smart Motorways can only be a short term measure but HMG and DfT are adamant that Motorway widening is not to be contemplated.

 

given the heightened awareness, campaigning etc around the climate emergency, I’d expect more vigorous campaigns and legal challenges for any widening proposals.

 

Smart Motorways only salvation is autonomous vehicles. On paper, autonomous vehicles increase capacity by reducing headway’s and increasing consistency of driving. Whether that technology can mature to that degree within 10 years or not is the challenge. If not then massive daily congestion will have returned to our key motorway network.

 

if they ever need to widen a smart motorway then you loose 25% of capacity the minute work starts as the contractor must close 1 lane rather than the hard shoulder.

[Joseph_Pestell]

50 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Maybe if they sell that rare Roman coin they found in the roadworks,  it will help offset some of the costs

 

The problem in the UK has been and always will be short termism

e.g. the current rush of "Smart Motorway" construction works.

Another of those catchy hrases that hides the disaster of what is being done.

We were told that a hard shoulder was absolutely essential for safe operation of a M way yet here we are turning them all into (narrow) running lanes, in operation seemingly all the time, rather than the "busy periods only" claim. I haven't noticed any improvement on the M6 around Birmingham since the works were done but there seem to be more reports of broken down vehicles affecting the the traffic (presumably on the ex-hard shoulder), where they normally wouldn't have been a problem.

 

"Rush" of smart motorway works. I know what you mean but it's an unfortunate choice of word. The works on the M3 took an age.

 

And what is "smart" about "smart motorways". Encountered two traffic delays last week on my journey to Grays via M3 & M25(N). Both were the result of incorrect (or outdated) messages about accidents that were nowhere to be seen.

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

"Rush" of smart motorway works. I know what you mean but it's an unfortunate choice of word. The works on the M3 took an age.

 

And what is "smart" about "smart motorways". Encountered two traffic delays last week on my journey to Grays via M3 & M25(N). Both were the result of incorrect (or outdated) messages about accidents that were nowhere to be seen.

(The roadwork signs all say "Upgrading to Smart Motorway" two false statements in one phrase! )

 

Same with the M6, they never seem to switch off the "smart" bit, as everytime I've used it around Birmingham there are 50mph limits and little traffic, even at the weekend during fine weather.

(I don't use it Mon-Fri during rush hours when that was generally what it was designed for)

I assume anybody can flick the "on" switch but nobody has the authority to switch it off again!

Edited May 18, 2019 by melmerby

[62613]

Motorways, smart or not, go from nowhere in particular to nowhere else in particular; or skirt around somewhere. The problem isn't so much the traffic on the motorway as what happens to it when it leaves and gets to its destination. The almost continuous traffic jams on roads leading to and from motorways, or from those roads is a case in point. 

[lmsforever]

Everytime I go under the M1  in Beds north of Woburn its at a standstill roadworks glad I don't have to use it these days .

[black and decker boy]

The Smart bit is automatic but if you are getting 50mph signs displayed in light traffic conditions then it’s sensor failure / switched off

 

the default is 50mph if the system can not detect the traffic

 

as for duration of the works, HE set the target for smart motorway conversion at 1km per month. My employer is engaged on the M1 project, it’s 30Km long. I’ll let you work out the rest....

[locoholic]

5 hours ago, Richard E said:

And we are now spending massive amounts of money upgrading the A14 between Cambridge and the A1 due to exactly the shortcomings detailed above. Which is better, build it adequately in the first place or build it twice to save a little bit of cost initially with that saving totally negated by the later upgrade?

You are quite correct - the original builders of the A14 between Cambridge and Huntingdon were very stupid not to build the road "adequately" in the first place. The Romans (for it was they) should have foreseen the likely growth of traffic over the next 2000 years and built their road as a six-lane motorway with grade-separated junctions, and to hell (Hades?) with the expense.

 

I trust this illustrates adequately the fallacious nature of your argument?

Edited May 18, 2019 by locoholic

[Davexoc]

24 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

The Smart bit is automatic but if you are getting 50mph signs displayed in light traffic conditions then it’s sensor failure / switched off

 

the default is 50mph if the system can not detect the traffic

Ah, so its like the old roller coaster at Lightwater Valley then. If one sensor doesn't see the cars it triggers the safeties until someone goes round and wipes the birdshit off the offending one. Until then it triggers the speed cameras and the automatic revenue generator ramps up........

[black and decker boy]

Speed cameras live 24/7, even if nothing displayed they will react for those breaking 70mph.

 

the unknown to us, the public, is if the Police enforce the 70 using that image / data. HE pay the Police to enforce the variable speed limits but it is up to the relevant Police force if they choose to pay to enforce the 70. Fines go to the treasury. Each force has a different view.

 

my cruise control set to obey....

[Bernard Lamb]

17 hours ago, Richard E said:

And we are now spending massive amounts of money upgrading the A14 between Cambridge and the A1 due to exactly the shortcomings detailed above. Which is better, build it adequately in the first place or build it twice to save a little bit of cost initially with that saving totally negated by the later upgrade?

Quoting from memory so it might not be quite right.

Pevsner made the comment about the original M1 bridges as looking very solid and permanent in appearance. He then added the rider that  permanence is probably not a desired quality when it comes to any thing to do with transport.

Bernard

[Siberian Snooper]

I wonder how much more voracious the complaining would be if they cancelled HS 2 and started the M4* 6 lane motorway instead, or would all the naysayers shut up and go home.

 

 

[lmsforever]

Don't worry Bernard in a few years time their wont be any cars capable of using the motorways as we will be using a horse and cart the way the greens are gaining the upper hand.

[cheesysmith]

When we all have electric cars powered by renewable power, will the speed limits be increased? After all, there will be no direct environmental penalty due to emmisions from going faster, or will we be stuck with a set of arbitrary speed limits set by a dead politician with very little scientific backing? 

[lmsforever]

With electric cars to get to Edinborough.  will take at least two days including stops to recharge  still there will be trains so no probs.

[PhilJ W]

37 minutes ago, cheesysmith said:

When we all have electric cars powered by renewable power, will the speed limits be increased? After all, there will be no direct environmental penalty due to emmisions from going faster, or will we be stuck with a set of arbitrary speed limits set by a dead politician with very little scientific backing? 

 

32 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

With electric cars to get to Edinborough.  will take at least two days including stops to recharge  still there will be trains so no probs.

With self driving cars speed limits will become unnecessary anyway and they should reduce journey times by making more efficient use of the roads.

[black and decker boy]

3 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Don't worry Bernard in a few years time their wont be any cars capable of using the motorways as we will be using a horse and cart the way the greens are gaining the upper hand.

 

2 hours ago, lmsforever said:

With electric cars to get to Edinborough.  will take at least two days including stops to recharge  still there will be trains so no probs.

We really do have a problem with technological advancements and progress don’t we LMS.....

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Don't worry Bernard in a few years time their wont be any cars capable of using the motorways as we will be using a horse and cart the way the greens are gaining the upper hand.

No doubt then they will belly-ache about all the greenhouse gas emissions from all those extra horses

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, lmsforever said:

With electric cars to get to Edinborough.  will take at least two days including stops to recharge  still there will be trains so no probs.

Considering with some cars you can already do more than half then distance from London to Edinburgh whilst keeping up with the rest of the traffic and a charge takes between 30 & 45 mins at a charge point that is twaddle.

Break halfway for lunch, car charged whilst you eat, simples.

But there's a problem. The infrastructure for electric cars isn't in place yet, just a few scattered charging bays.

Two in central Birmingham are always full, sometimes with a Police Transit (No it's not electric!)

 

[Ian Hargrave]

In general,I am deeply sceptical on the matter of HS 2. A while ago on this thread,I seem to remember a post from a member who made a case for it on the basis that the current WCML is at saturation point and cannot cope with existing traffic flow as it is presently.

 This morning’s 11:46 Euston to Crewe was 6 minutes late arriving at Tamworth.Reason on overhead display on 350 unit....”line congestion “.....tailgating ailing 390 it seems. Food for thought...

[Kelly]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

In general,I am deeply sceptical on the matter of HS 2. A while ago on this thread,I seem to remember a post from a member who made a case for it on the basis that the current WCML is at saturation point and cannot cope with existing traffic flow as it is presently.

 This morning’s 11:46 Euston to Crewe was 6 minutes late arriving at Tamworth.Reason on overhead display on 350 unit....”line congestion “.....tailgating ailing 390 it seems. Food for thought...

 

From September it gets more crowded as GNWR Euston-Blackpool services using 91s+Mk4s start.

[Kelly]

On 19/05/2019 at 11:06, lmsforever said:

With electric cars to get to Edinborough.  will take at least two days including stops to recharge  still there will be trains so no probs.

 

Some electric cars already have the range to get most of the way from London to Edinburgh, with it improving all the time. Fast charging can already recharge some cars in less than 45 minutes to mostly full battery charge, perfectly fine to stop once on the way for toilet/cuppa/food whilst it charges. Once the infrastructure starts to catch up it with become more viable. Besides, by 2040 you won't be able to buy anything not electric/hybrid/hydrogen anyway.