HS2 under review

[Mike Storey]

David Higgins was talking a lot today about a Trans-Pennine Liverpool - Hull axis.

How does this chime with the general North - South route of HS2?

 

I can't find the recording or a transcript which includes that, but it must refer to the Northern Hub scheme, currently well underway, which neatly complements HS2 by vastly improving connectivity between East and West to give good connections to/from HS2 hubs. Without Northern Hub works, the penalty suffered by getting to or from HS2 to an ultimate destination on the classic routes, would significantly reduce its attractiveness to those off-route, and therefore, I would only be guessing here, its business case.

[Mike Storey]

 

David Higgins comments on the HS1 - HS2 link are

 

"It is the most cost-effective solution for linking the two networks. But it is an imperfect compromise because of the effect it would have on existing passenger and freight services and the local community. It would also use up HS2 capacity that could be better used on services to more areas, such as North Wales. The HS2 platforms at Euston will be a short distance from those at HS1, and one stop on the Underground. That is the equivalent of transferring from one terminal to another at Heathrow. I believe the Government should, therefore, consider whether the cost – at around £700 million – is good value or whether it would be better to consider an alternative, which would deliver the benefits of a link without compromising existing services."

 

Instead he wants phase 1 to be extended up to Crewe and use the money there instead - and idea which strikes me as elemently sensible. (Lets face it pigs will fly before the Eurosceptic and immigrant scared British public will allow the necessary changes to allow through services to the continent)

 

"The existing Phase One plans contained in the hybrid Bill will clearly be transformative. By separating long-distance passenger traffic from freight and local services, they will allow more services across the board, providing real benefit to commuters, a faster and more reliable service for long-distance travellers, and more room for freight. That extra capacity will be created both on HS2 itself and on the existing network. But those benefits could be spread further north sooner if Phase Two were accelerated and the line were extended to a new regional transport hub at Crewe by 2027, six years earlier than planned. This would bring together road and rail services for the region as a whole, allowing faster services sooner to Manchester, the rest of the North West and to Scotland.

 

Although final decisions must await the outcome of the recent consultation, I believe it is the right strategic answer for the long term and, by combining road and rail services in one interchange, it would also act as a real agent of change in that region. It would be for the Government and Parliament to decide how that might be achieved in terms of legislation, but I do not believe this needs to be a lengthy process. These improvements, in my view, are a bigger priority and will deliver more benefits to more people across the country than the proposed HS1-HS2 link"

 

 

 

Very useful to read his actual words - thanks. Given the ease of construction and the obvious logic of his proposal to add the section to Crewe to Phase 1, I wonder why the original construction plan termination point was adopted in the first place, seeming rather arbitrary. The logic of Brum to London being of most urgency is still sound, nonetheless. 

 

I also wonder (given the increasing impetus from him and within HMG to "do a Kings Cross" at Euston) if this might lead to resurrection of the plan for the travelator that was originally mooted between Euston and Kings Cross a few years ago? I don't really think, having done it many times in the past, that the LUL links between the two, especially in the morning and late afternoon/early evening, are a practical transfer option for those with any baggage of note! The travelator proved not to be a cheap undertaking and was dropped by TfL, but stacked against £700m for the HS link-up, it must now look relatively cost-effective? It would also be justified by the very large number of people arriving/departing on Thameslink (which will increase significantly by 2018) wanting to travel in/out of Euston, classic or HS2, and relieve the Northern and Victoria lines of their horrendous overcrowding between these points. Or perhaps Boris will have another ski-lift type thingy, a la 02 Dome to Docklands, installed instead......

[phil-b259]

I can't find the recording or a transcript which includes that, but it must refer to the Northern Hub scheme, currently well underway, which neatly complements HS2 by vastly improving connectivity between East and West to give good connections to/from HS2 hubs. Without Northern Hub works, the penalty suffered by getting to or from HS2 to an ultimate destination on the classic routes, would significantly reduce its attractiveness to those off-route, and therefore, I would only be guessing here, its business case.

 

From David Higgins's report (relevant bits in bold)

 

"In contrast, connectivity in the North is poor, both between the region and London, and east to west – from Liverpool to Manchester, Manchester to Leeds and Leeds to Hull. The same is true of services such as Leeds to Birmingham. The incremental schemes of the Northern Hub project will improve that connectivity, but HS2 brings the opportunity to do much more. If the link between infrastructure and economic activity is accepted, then that is clearly a considerable disincentive to organisations to base their operations there, as the location of the FTSE 100 companies, referred to earlier, would seem to confirm.

 

Passenger traffic, for instance, between Greater Manchester (population: 2.7 million) and the Leeds city region (2.2 million) is much less than you would expect between two cities of such size and significance, 40 miles apart. Less than 0.5% of commuters into Manchester come from Leeds, and vice versa. Common sense suggests that there is huge untapped potential for much more trade and commerce across the Pennines, but that would require better connections than currently exist."

 

And in another section

 

"In my discussions preparing this report, I have repeatedly been urged both to deliver the benefits the line will bring to the North sooner, and to start work there earlier. That is why I am proposing to extend the line to a new hub at Crewe by 2027, so that services through that interchange can be better and faster, sooner. I also believe that the rest of Phase Two is vital to realising the potential of the North as a whole; but it can only do that if it is done right.

For some areas in the North, capacity is as much an issue as in the South, but the bigger problem is connectivity – journey times are too slow. The key to improving those, particularly east to west, is to integrate HS2 into the existing network to improve connectivity between cities such as Liverpool and Manchester, Manchester and Leeds, Leeds and Hull, as well as Birmingham and Leeds. HS2 can help to address those issues – as the proposed route already does – but it cannot be the complete answer. HS2 and the future of the existing network need to be considered together to maximise the synergy between them – and both need to be considered as part of a much wider overview of how to regenerate the North as a whole.

I have been struck by the growing recognition by civic leaders of the potential transformational effect that HS2 could have on the North, not just because of improved access to and from London, but also to increase the linkages, trade and development across the region, east to west and north to south. To date, the discussions about how to realise the potential of the second phase of HS2 have tended to focus on the line itself, and there have been bilateral discussions between HS2 Ltd and individual cities and local authorities. This underestimates both the transformation that HS2 could bring to the entire region, and the potential for change if HS2 is seen as part of the wider transport network. Issues such as how to considerably improve the trans-Pennine line between Leeds and Manchester; or whether to re-open the Wortley Curve to improve services to Bradford and Wakefield; or the potential for electrification from Leeds to Hull; or the impact of the East Coast upgrade are not within HS2’s remit, but are hugely relevant to final decisions on the route."

[phil-b259]

The report in full

 

http://assets.hs2.org.uk/sites/default/files/inserts/Higgins%20Report%20-%20HS2%20Plus.pdf

[Mike Storey]

From David Higgins's report (relevant bits in bold)

 

"In contrast, connectivity in the North is poor, both between the region and London, and east to west – from Liverpool to Manchester, Manchester to Leeds and Leeds to Hull. The same is true of services such as Leeds to Birmingham. The incremental schemes of the Northern Hub project will improve that connectivity, but HS2 brings the opportunity to do much more. If the link between infrastructure and economic activity is accepted, then that is clearly a considerable disincentive to organisations to base their operations there, as the location of the FTSE 100 companies, referred to earlier, would seem to confirm.

 

Passenger traffic, for instance, between Greater Manchester (population: 2.7 million) and the Leeds city region (2.2 million) is much less than you would expect between two cities of such size and significance, 40 miles apart. Less than 0.5% of commuters into Manchester come from Leeds, and vice versa. Common sense suggests that there is huge untapped potential for much more trade and commerce across the Pennines, but that would require better connections than currently exist."

 

And in another section

 

"In my discussions preparing this report, I have repeatedly been urged both to deliver the benefits the line will bring to the North sooner, and to start work there earlier. That is why I am proposing to extend the line to a new hub at Crewe by 2027, so that services through that interchange can be better and faster, sooner. I also believe that the rest of Phase Two is vital to realising the potential of the North as a whole; but it can only do that if it is done right.

For some areas in the North, capacity is as much an issue as in the South, but the bigger problem is connectivity – journey times are too slow. The key to improving those, particularly east to west, is to integrate HS2 into the existing network to improve connectivity between cities such as Liverpool and Manchester, Manchester and Leeds, Leeds and Hull, as well as Birmingham and Leeds. HS2 can help to address those issues – as the proposed route already does – but it cannot be the complete answer. HS2 and the future of the existing network need to be considered together to maximise the synergy between them – and both need to be considered as part of a much wider overview of how to regenerate the North as a whole.

I have been struck by the growing recognition by civic leaders of the potential transformational effect that HS2 could have on the North, not just because of improved access to and from London, but also to increase the linkages, trade and development across the region, east to west and north to south. To date, the discussions about how to realise the potential of the second phase of HS2 have tended to focus on the line itself, and there have been bilateral discussions between HS2 Ltd and individual cities and local authorities. This underestimates both the transformation that HS2 could bring to the entire region, and the potential for change if HS2 is seen as part of the wider transport network. Issues such as how to considerably improve the trans-Pennine line between Leeds and Manchester; or whether to re-open the Wortley Curve to improve services to Bradford and Wakefield; or the potential for electrification from Leeds to Hull; or the impact of the East Coast upgrade are not within HS2’s remit, but are hugely relevant to final decisions on the route."

 

Really useful , many thanks. He seems to be saying that the Northern Hub scheme improves matters but will not be enough. I am not sure what else he is proposing but it would appear to involve expanding the scope both of HS2 and of associated classic infrastructure schemes, both extant and bottom drawer. Let's see where that runs.

[frobisher]

Depends whether Scotland

 

a) is allowed into the EU

B) is allowed to adopt the Schengen agreement

c) is able to afford their section of High Speed line by then, given that their primary focus continues to be a high speed link between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

In the absence of (a) or ( B), I would imagine the arrangements on current services post-independence (should that occur) will be quite interesting, especially on the sleepers if HMRC refuse to do on-board checks.

Actually, no a or b makes it simpler. Scotland would likely remain in the Common Travel Area along with the UK and no border controls are necessary. If Scotland adopts Schengen (which doesn't require EU membership, then border controls become an issue as the UK is not under Schengen...

 

The requirement of new EU members to join Schengen will present "issues" for an independent Scotland in the EU.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Sorry, my fault that we have gone OT. It has always been a big frustration of mine that HS1 usefulness is severely compromised by UKBA attitude to passport control.

 

Perhaps we should open a Wheeltappers' thread about Scottish independence?

[Mike Storey]

Sorry, my fault that we have gone OT. It has always been a big frustration of mine that HS1 usefulness is severely compromised by UKBA attitude to passport control.

 

Perhaps we should open a Wheeltappers' thread about Scottish independence?

 

If it can be kept to potential travel and rail investment issues (maybe even a bit of modelling) but the discussions I have seen on the web on that subject are not exactly friendly and objective! Perhaps better to avoid on our overwhelmingly tolerant and serene site, being an even more emotionally charged matter than Hornby.....

[The Stationmaster]

If it can be kept to potential travel and rail investment issues (maybe even a bit of modelling) but the discussions I have seen on the web on that subject are not exactly friendly and objective! Perhaps better to avoid on our overwhelmingly tolerant and serene site, being an even more emotionally charged matter than Hornby.....

There was such a thread, it couldn't, and it was locked.

[edcayton]

There were two!

 

Ed

[Re6/6]

Call for HS2 minister as there was for 2012 Olympics

 

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2014/03/21/taskforce-calls-for-hs2-minister/

[melmerby]

Maybe we should have Ian Fletcher as  "Head of Deliverance, HS2"?

 

 

Keith

[Peter Bedding]

Maybe we should have Ian Fletcher as  "Head of Deliverance, HS2"?

 

 

Keith

 

Priceless

[jjb1970]

I think there is more than a touch of "build it and they will come" as per the field of dreams in terms of improved Northern rail links. The reason public transport is so much more widely used in the SE than in other places is that in the SE you can live your life using public transport with limited compromises. The trains run from early until late, with frequent services and there is a dense network, ditto buses and the tube. In the North it is nothing like as useful, when I lived in Cumbria and studied in the North East you have to plan things around trains, there is nothing like the service frequency and the network is nothing like as dense. People are told to leave the car at home, I find people will happily do that if there are alternatives but if the car is the only realistic option then there is no point blaming people for using the car instead of public transport. If HS2 does spur interest in improved links across the Pennines and a more general improvement in the rail network in the North then it'd be hugely valuable and see a surge in rail use I think.

[Edwin_m]

I think that's true to a large extent in all the rural areas, except those in the south-east that happen to lie on commuter routes.  However the larger cities of the north (and Birmingham) are at a tipping point where public transport is starting to get more attractive than the car for certain journeys starting and/or finishing in the city centres.  I think a lot of people who would drive everywhere except into London now wouldn't consider driving into Leeds or Manchester either, and a relatively small investment here can grow usage of the railway by quite a lot. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

The reason public transport is so much more widely used in the SE than in other places is that in the SE you can live your life using public transport with limited compromises...........

That applies more to London than the SE in general, notwithstanding the widespread availability of public transport (particularly rail) in the region.

Outside of inner and central London, PT still only accounts for a modest percentage of all journeys undertaken.

I recall reading that if a mere 5% of road journeys in Greater London, transferred to rail and tube, then the capacity of rail and tube in London would have to more than double.

 

 

.

[Mike Storey]

I think there is more than a touch of "build it and they will come" as per the field of dreams in terms of improved Northern rail links. The reason public transport is so much more widely used in the SE than in other places is that in the SE you can live your life using public transport with limited compromises. The trains run from early until late, with frequent services and there is a dense network, ditto buses and the tube. In the North it is nothing like as useful, when I lived in Cumbria and studied in the North East you have to plan things around trains, there is nothing like the service frequency and the network is nothing like as dense. People are told to leave the car at home, I find people will happily do that if there are alternatives but if the car is the only realistic option then there is no point blaming people for using the car instead of public transport. If HS2 does spur interest in improved links across the Pennines and a more general improvement in the rail network in the North then it'd be hugely valuable and see a surge in rail use I think.

 

The separate Trans Pennine Express Franchise has pretty well proven that an improved service East-West in the North can generate very significant growth, and it operates a 24 hour service on the core route already. My daughter lives in Leeds and works in different hospices, hospitals and care homes around North and West Yorkshire, often at unsociable hours. She has no car and uses a combination of bus and train to every job, as do most of her colleagues. Every new commuter extension into Leeds and Manchester has been full to capacity within a few years, certainly in the peaks and shoulder peaks. Percentage growth has been higher in some of the northern conurbations than it has in the SE, although in absolute terms it is of course still tiny in comparison. The merger of the TP franchise with the rest of Northern Rail in the new franchise to be let, is a recognition of the fact that capacity is the prime constraint on further growth (DfT now accept that the demand is there - a big change from 7/8 years ago), and that the new journey possibilities that will come with completion of the commissioned stages of the northern hub works requires an integrated timetable and integrated rolling stock utilisation across the routes. Once the problem over new train financing has been finally overcome (there is your "field of dreams"), then train lengthening is the last resort before a new core route must be opened. The possibility of widening, especially between Manchester, Leeds and York, would, in past feasibility studies I have been party to (some years ago admittedly) be much more expensive and intrusive than new build, and would not deliver faster inter-city journeys. If HS2 generates further interest in getting that done, what's the down side?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Sadly, a lot of trackbed has been built over which has removed  any prospect (at reasonable cost) of having four tracks again between Stalybridge and Leeds. But there are certainly still locations where four tracks (paired by direction this time) could be provided and thus allow a much enhanced service.

[Kris]

I see that there is conformation that the link from HS 1 to HS 2 is dead in it's current form http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26717518

Edited March 24, 2014 by Kris

[jamie92208]

Sadly, a lot of trackbed has been built over which has removed  any prospect (at reasonable cost) of having four tracks again between Stalybridge and Leeds. But there are certainly still locations where four tracks (paired by direction this time) could be provided and thus allow a much enhanced service.

The worst bit would probably be the old 'Leeds New Line' from Battyford (Heaton Lodge) to Farnley Junction which was the 2nd pair of tracks between those two locations.  There are several sections that are clear but unfortunately much of it has been built on in some cases quite recently.   The section from Birstall into Leeds would make a fabulous park and ride commuter route from J27 of the M62.

 

 

Jamie

[Re6/6]

MPs criticise BBC over climate change reporting

 

The BBC has to adopt "clear editorial guidelines" for its reporting on the issue of climate change, MPs have said.

 

The Science and Technology Committee said the organisation played a "central" role in informing the public.

 

But some editors were "poor" at determining viewers' and listeners' level of expertise and sometimes pitted lobbyists against "top scientists" as if their views had "equal weight".

 

The BBC said it did "not believe in erasing wider viewpoints"....the typical sanctimonious and pathetic response from an organization that sees itself as infallible. 

 

In its report, the committee said news teams, including those on Radio 4's Today programme, had committed the mistake of attributing the same weight to opinions and scientific fact when covering climate science.

 

The same could certainly be said about the BBC's reporting on HS2 matters.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26845103

Edited April 2, 2014 by Re6/6

[10800]

 

The same could certainly be said about the BBC's reporting on HS2 matters.

 

 

Quite right John - I read that this morning and immediately thought the same.

[dmustu]

JR East to advise on HS2

 

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/news/20140403_46.html

[B18 DUD]

This will all be a non starter when Russia annex France......

[Astockfan101]

This will all be a non starter when Russia annex France......

If that happens someone going to have to blow up the Channel tunnel!

And all of the heritage railways will have to give their stock up and then we take some old aeroplanes from duxford as well.