HS2 under review

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Some comparisions:

 

Original London - Birmingham  (112 miles) Opened 1838 / Construction time = 4y 10m

 

Great Central London - Annesley (95 miles) Opened 1899 / Construction time = 4y 4m

 

Shinkansan Totoyo - Osaka (320 miles) Opened 1964 / Construction time 5y 6m

 

LGV Paris - Lyon (245 miles) Opened 1981 / Construction time = 4y 10m

[runs as required]

Two items appeared on my radar about HS2

1

Mention above of Nottingham: a couple of issues of Private Eye ago, 'piloti' (Gavin Stamp) wrote of a group lobbying to redevelop the Victoria mall in Nottingham  to guess what? Shops over a train station on the High Speed line!

2

The 'about turn' in Labour's economic policy may announced by Ed Balls could mean they antipate cancelling HS2 to fund other public sector committments should they return to power (BBC Newsnight commentators).

 

davehig

[jcm@gwr]

2

The 'about turn' in Labour's economic policy may announced by Ed Balls could mean they antipate cancelling HS2 to fund other public sector committments should they return to power (BBC Newsnight commentators).

 

davehig

 

Answer:- NO 

[Mike Storey]

Two items appeared on my radar about HS2

1

Mention above of Nottingham: a couple of issues of Private Eye ago, 'piloti' (Gavin Stamp) wrote of a group lobbying to redevelop the Victoria mall in Nottingham  to guess what? Shops over a train station on the High Speed line!

2

The 'about turn' in Labour's economic policy may announced by Ed Balls could mean they antipate cancelling HS2 to fund other public sector committments should they return to power (BBC Newsnight commentators).

 

davehig

 

1. Yes - and in the current issue there is a rebuttal letter to Piloti's apparent suggestion that the GCR should be re-opened instead of HS2!

 

2. I doubt they would if private capital has already been found by then, hopefully, which depends on the Bill getting through this year - already 17 to 34 days late.

[melmerby]

Two items appeared on my radar about HS2

1

Mention above of Nottingham: a couple of issues of Private Eye ago, 'piloti' (Gavin Stamp) wrote of a group lobbying to redevelop the Victoria mall in Nottingham  to guess what? Shops over a train station on the High Speed line!

 

davehig

I am sure I read somewhere that the Victoria shopping centre was built so that the railway could return, using the car park level, at some time in the future.

 

Keith

Edited January 26, 2014 by melmerby

[Edwin_m]

The railway formation may nor may not be re-useable under Victoria Centre, and the tunnels survive though one is used for a district heating system.  However virtually no trace of the GC survives on the surface within the Nottingham conurbation, with the exception of the sections that are or soon will be part of a tram route. 

[lmsforever]

In truth the future depends on parliament and not on private funding,MP,s are well known for being fickle so its a case of hold your breath and wait.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The railway formation may nor may not be re-useable under Victoria Centre, and the tunnels survive though one is used for a district heating system.  However virtually no trace of the GC survives on the surface within the Nottingham conurbation, with the exception of the sections that are or soon will be part of a tram route. 

They'd also have to knock down the modern art gallery which is built on the site of Weekday Cross junction. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, as it's hideous.

 

The idea of reopening the Great Central instead of building HS2 sounds like the anti-HS2 brigade clutching at straws. Yet again.

[Fat Controller]

Some comparisions:

 

Original London - Birmingham  (112 miles) Opened 1838 / Construction time = 4y 10m

 

Great Central London - Annesley (95 miles) Opened 1899 / Construction time = 4y 4m

 

Shinkansan Totoyo - Osaka (320 miles) Opened 1964 / Construction time 5y 6m

 

LGV Paris - Lyon (245 miles) Opened 1981 / Construction time = 4y 10m

I would suggest that the last one is somewhat innaccurate; I have detailed the timescale before, but the 1981 iteration of LGV Sud-Est started at St Florentin, about 100 miles east of Paris. In 1983, it reached Combes la Ville, still about 30 miles out of Paris, only reaching Villeneuve-St- Georges (still some way from central Paris) in 1996- this gives a construction time of somewhat closer to 20 years than 5 years. At the Lyon end, it still meanders into the suburbs near Sathonay before an often painfully-slow journey into Lyon- Part Dieu. There are few major viaducts and bridges, and only one tunnel (on the link from TGV Interconnexion to VSG) on the whole line, and a large part runs miles from major settlements, so mitigation works (sound-proofing bunds and such like) are minimal.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I would suggest that the last one is somewhat innaccurate; I have detailed the timescale before, but the 1981 iteration of LGV Sud-Est started at St Florentin, about 100 miles east of Paris. In 1983, it reached Combes la Ville, still about 30 miles out of Paris, only reaching Villeneuve-St- Georges (still some way from central Paris) in 1996- this gives a construction time of somewhat closer to 20 years than 5 years. At the Lyon end, it still meanders into the suburbs near Sathonay before an often painfully-slow journey into Lyon- Part Dieu. There are few major viaducts and bridges, and only one tunnel (on the link from TGV Interconnexion to VSG) on the whole line, and a large part runs miles from major settlements, so mitigation works (sound-proofing bunds and such like) are minimal.

 

It was not being constructed throughout that 20 years. There was a long gap until the extension to VSG was built. IIRC St Florentin to Sathonay opened about a year later so the total "construction time" for the original Paris-Lyon LGV was about 5 years.

[Fat Controller]

It was not being constructed throughout that 20 years. There was a long gap until the extension to VSG was built. IIRC St Florentin to Sathonay opened about a year later so the total "construction time" for the original Paris-Lyon LGV was about 5 years.

St Florentin was the start of the line under the original build, whilst Sathonay is on the northern outskirts of Lyon. The extension towards Combes-le-Ville (about 16 miles east of Paris) took until 1983- to say that the line was 'complete'  then would be like saying that HS2 would be complete when it started somewhere near Slough, and finished near Coventry. On the same basis, CTRL would have been deemed finished at Fawkham Jct..

I'm not saying that construction was continual over 20 years, but that it was not what one might call 'complete'- the French very sensibly 'staged' construction in order to avoid too high an impact on national finances, and to avoid overloading the construction industry, which was also committed to a lot of autoroute construction.

The French are not alone in this approach- the Swiss designed the Löscthberg Base Tunnel as a twin bore; however, they only bored both bores for about two thirds of the distance, and of the two bores, one only has track in it for about half its length. The other bore has been partially fitted out, so that it 'only' needs track, catenary and signalling to complete it to the two-thirds mark.

Compare this to the Spanish approach; they committed themselves to building a full network of high-speed lines, some of very questionable viability, in a short time-scale. The construction industry was already busy, so the cost was higher than it might have been, RENFE (and thus the government) being compelled to increase their debt to pay for it. In the end, some parts of the proposed network were never started, and others will now only be single-track for much of their length.

[jcm@gwr]

The French are not alone in this approach- the Swiss designed the Löscthberg Base Tunnel as a twin bore; however, they only bored both bores for about two thirds of the distance, and of the two bores, one only has track in it for about half its length. The other bore has been partially fitted out, so that it 'only' needs track, catenary and signalling to complete it to the two-thirds mark.

 

That doesn't seem logical to me, why not finish 1 tunnel completely,

and put up with a bit of a bottleneck, and then start/carry on with the 

second tunnel, as and when the situation allows (whether that be the

labour market or finances, or whatever)?

Jeff

[Fat Controller]

That doesn't seem logical to me, why not finish 1 tunnel completely,

and put up with a bit of a bottleneck, and then start/carry on with the 

second tunnel, as and when the situation allows (whether that be the

labour market or finances, or whatever)?

Jeff

Sorry; I just realised I expressed myself badly. One bore is completed and operational for its entire length; the other has been bored for two thirds of its length, but only one third of the length has had track etc installed. What is impressive is the way the single- double transition is managed. ETCS is installed in all trains using the tunnel, and very precise speed indications are given to drivers; if a train on the single-line section is delayed, speeds for trains on trains running on the double-track section towards it are reduced so the trains cross with a reduction in speed perceptible to only the most observant passenger. This contrasts with the very 'stepped' changes of speed in TVM systems.

[jcm@gwr]

Sorry; I just realised I expressed myself badly. One bore is completed and operational for its entire length; the other has been bored for two thirds of its length, but only one third of the length has had track etc installed. What is impressive is the way the single- double transition is managed. ETCS is installed in all trains using the tunnel, and very precise speed indications are given to drivers; if a train on the single-line section is delayed, speeds for trains on trains running on the double-track section towards it are reduced so the trains cross with a reduction in speed perceptible to only the most observant passenger. This contrasts with the very 'stepped' changes of speed in TVM systems.

 

That makes a lot more sense! 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Jeff

[Phil Parker]

The idea of reopening the Great Central instead of building HS2 sounds like the anti-HS2 brigade clutching at straws. Yet again.

 

It's a suggestion that pops up every few years. If I remember rightly, one of the problems is that there are several housing estates built over sections of it. The other is that the anti-HS2 people don't like old rail lines being re-opened as seen when they moan about those that will be needed for HS2. Usually the argument involves it being a nice flat place to walk the dog.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Apparently Labour are going to delay the HS2 Bill so they can kill it off if they win the next election. At least that's what the Telegraph are saying, as proof they've got a couple of quotes from Ed Balls saying that it might take longer than originally planned to get the bill through Parliament. Which suggests that our journalist chums are still struggling desperately to find non-existent holes in the political consensus around HS2.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Apparently Labour are going to delay the HS2 Bill so they can kill it off if they win the next election. At least that's what the Telegraph are saying, as proof they've got a couple of quotes from Ed Balls saying that it might take longer than originally planned to get the bill through Parliament. Which suggests that our journalist chums are still struggling desperately to find non-existent holes in the political consensus around HS2.

 

I wish that I shared your confidence in that supposed "consensus".

[edcayton]

At least if one of the parties says "no" to HS2 that will give the electorate some say in the matter.

 

Ed

[GoingUnderground]

I wish that I shared your confidence in that supposed "consensus".

 

 

At least if one of the parties says "no" to HS2 that will give the electorate some say in the matter.

 

Ed

 

I was listening to the former Governor of the Bank of England, Mervyn King, talking about Niccolo Machiavelli's book "The Prince", which was intended when it was written five hundred years ago to be a primer on how to be an absolute monarch. It is generally thought to be the first book on political theory and applies to modern day politics.

 

One of the principles that it sets out is that to make the changes you want to your kingdom, or your society, you have to be in power, and that therefore you should say, and do, whatever it takes to get that power even if after you get that power it means going back on what you may have said previously.

 

As the election starts to loom even larger on the political horizon, you can bet that the politicos of all parties are working out how to be all things to all people in an effort to get elected, and that will include infrastructure projects like HS2.

 

So don't take anything, for or against HS2, for granted.   

[Joseph_Pestell]

I was listening to the former Governor of the Bank of England, Mervyn King, talking about Niccolo Machiavelli's book "The Prince", which was intended when it was written five hundred years ago to be a primer on how to be an absolute monarch. It is generally thought to be the first book on political theory and applies to modern day politics.

 

One of the principles that it sets out is that to make the changes you want to your kingdom, or your society, you have to be in power, and that therefore you should say, and do, whatever it takes to get that power even if after you get that power it means going back on what you may have said previously.

 

As the election starts to loom even larger on the political horizon, you can bet that the politicos of all parties are working out how to be all things to all people in an effort to get elected, and that will include infrastructure projects like HS2.

 

So don't take anything, for or against HS2, for granted.   

 

Macchiavelli was a bright bloke. Our current generation of politicians.........

[Joseph_Pestell]

Article in yesterday's paper (i) suggested that he new HS2 boss would like to see both phases constructed at the same time as it would reduce overall cost.

[GoingUnderground]

I won't be surprised if we hear before long that HS2 has been cancelled, or at any rate put on hold, because the money is needed for improving flood defences and flood relief schemes.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I can see your point. But HS2 is about generating expanding the economy so really the best way to get the money to be able to pay for flood defences etc.

[jjb1970]

I think the media calls to divert HS2 funding allocations to pay for flood defences are either disingenuous or ill-considered. I'm not arguing against more funding for flood defences but raiding capital programs intended to deliver substantial benefit is not the way to do it. There are all sorts of mechanisms they can use to raise money for flood defences without moving problems from flooding to another area.

[Oldddudders]

I think the media calls to divert HS2 funding allocations to pay for flood defences are either disingenuous or ill-considered. I'm not arguing against more funding for flood defences but raiding capital programs intended to deliver substantial benefit is not the way to do it. There are all sorts of mechanisms they can use to raise money for flood defences without moving problems from flooding to another area.

The media and nimbies are a very old alliance - print what people want to read, and they will buy your paper. But these days, with electronic news-gathering and dissemination, the media is also fighting a rearguard action to protect itself. Thus it has a lot in common with nimbies, too.