Imaginary Locomotives

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Interesting that the builder of the 4-8-0 and 4-6-2 perpetuated the King bogie arrangement, when the design problem that led to this construction had been solved shortly after the Kings were in service, thus rendering it redundant. Stanier's Princess Royal didn't need it, and as I pointed out earlier, that is the pacific development of the GWR King. That it happened to be built elsewhere than Swindon, does not void the ancestry.

[Zero Gravitas]

Indeed, the Southern Beyer Garrett is on my list.

 

That set me thinking - and here's a question - was "Leader" a Garratt? Or was it a Mallet? Or was it something completely different?

 

Best Regards,

 

Zero Gravitas.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If you are looking for a generic family term it qualifies as an 'Articulated' steam loco. But of all articulateds Leader perhaps has most in common with the Garratt type since it too has a pair of swivelling bogies supporting the boiler, but it differs markedly in the layout : conventional boiler but above the bogies rather than on a frame slung between them. Then there is the geared transmission aspect within the bogies and unusual sleeve valve steam distribution. As such had it successfully gone into general service, my expectation would be that the designer's name would be used to identify it, either Bulleid type, or perhaps Bulleid-Garratt.

[PhilJ W]

That set me thinking - and here's a question - was "Leader" a Garratt? Or was it a Mallet? Or was it something completely different?

 

Best Regards,

 

Zero Gravitas.

 

I think it had more in common with a Fairlie.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Having thought about it a little more, it is actually closest to a Meyer arrangement: single fairly conventional boiler over two swivelling powered bogies. The geared drive is distinctively different, so Bulleid-Meyer.

 

I can see where Bulleid went wrong with the concept, and am definitely going to follow up the suggestion of Ron Jarvis, who said that it needed complete redesign. So, out with all the funny stuff in the engine department, two cylinders per bogie with outside Walschaerts gear, cylinders to the centre Meyer style. Now the tricky bit, the off centreline boiler, with the associated over weight and crew seperation issues. Well, it is obvious isn't it? Use the proven barbette mounting with 'walking pipes' developed for the RN battleships. Have a conventional boiler spin round on a turntable above the bogies, so the firebox is always at the leading end. Bunkers and tanks on the frame ends so the fireman always has a supply. Course, if the fuel runs out one end, the crew have to wait for a nice clear section so that they can spin the boiler on the move. Simple .

[Horsetan]

I would like to have seen batches of the German DRG Einheitsloks, DB Neubauloks and DR Rekoloks built to fit the British loading gauge, in appropriate BR livery, and then set to work on something like the Waverley Route, or the Great Central London Extension.

 

A Baureihe 01.5 Reko at Loughborough, or a Baureihe 45 2-10-2 slogging up through Whitrope.

 

10.001 departing Maryelbone, or 18.201 on the ECML? Now that really would have been something.

[Caledonian]

I suppose the most practical and realistic way to look at this one is to start from the assumption that your chosen railway was neither absorbed in the grouping nor nationalised - a real example being the Wemyss Private Railway.

 

Then think about where they would buy their locomotives. What for instance would have been hauling trains on the Deeside Railway in the early 1950s if it hadn't been absorbed first into the great North of Scotland and then the LNER. What would the Hull and Barnsley be running, or the Furness Railway, or the Glasgow and South Western?

[steaming_chris]

Ten years ago or so, one guy wrote about (over two or three artciles) about various models in 0 he had built of proposed GWR designs. It included a 2-10-0, a 4-8-0 and the pacific outlined here. (He may have done a 2-10-0T too, but one also appeared in MRC some years ago too!)

Hi James

 

just for some fun in the "Cuts and Shuts" thread I posted this version Mr Collet's experimental 2-10-0 tank seen at Toddington

 

Regards

Chris

[Pinkmouse]

...So, out with all the funny stuff in the engine department, two cylinders per bogie with outside Walschaerts gear, cylinders to the centre Meyer style. Now the tricky bit, the off centreline boiler, with the associated over weight and crew seperation issues. Well, it is obvious isn't it? Use the proven barbette mounting with 'walking pipes' developed for the RN battleships. Have a conventional boiler spin round on a turntable above the bogies, so the firebox is always at the leading end. Bunkers and tanks on the frame ends so the fireman always has a supply. Course, if the fuel runs out one end, the crew have to wait for a nice clear section so that they can spin the boiler on the move. Simple .

 

Hmm, you've got me thinking. This might be the next project after the SR BG.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I would like to have seen batches of the German DRG Einheitsloks, DB Neubauloks and DR Rekoloks built to fit the British loading gauge, in appropriate BR livery, and then set to work on something like the Waverley Route, or the Great Central London Extension.

 

A Baureihe 01.5 Reko at Loughborough, or a Baureihe 45 2-10-2 slogging up through Whitrope.

 

10.001 departing Maryelbone, or 18.201 on the ECML? Now that really would have been something.

 

Horse, believe it or not something of this sort was actively considered by the group who attempted to purchase the Waverley after closure. About this time, the DB were retiring their 01s and 03s and the purchase of some ex DB machines was considered.

Until somebody realised how big they were...

Still, it's a nice image - 01 1066 would look nice slogging up through Ninestanerigg Cutting!

 

Dave.

[James]

Hi James

 

just for some fun in the "Cuts and Shuts" thread I posted this version Mr Collet's experimental 2-10-0 tank seen at Toddington

 

Regards

Chris

 

Chris, I like that! I like that a lot! Would have been a powerful looking machine!

[tommy mac]

Hi all I am planing to make a loco that never was myself.I have two pugs, a Hornby and a Dapol model which i am very fond of. I am currently building a shunting layout and intend to use both of them on the layout but as all the points are insul frog they will not be able to cope with the track work. What I planned to do is a sort of pug double fairle. Has this ever been done and will it work? I plan to cut the buffer blocks off, remove the cab backplate somehow run the wires from both moters to extra pick ups then make a fake bolier cover and extend the cab roof and add a crew!

I will try and add some pictures soon as i start.

 

Thanks Tommy

[Adam1701D]

A little while ago, I played around with some "what-if" designs for pre-war LNER diesel traction...

 

 

[Guest Max Stafford]

Adam, that's an art deco classic. I already had Fritz Lang in mind before I scrolled down to the bottom!

I love it! B)

 

Dave.

[Caledonian]

That I like, and of course the supplementary question to my post above about where smaller railways might buy their locomotives if they survived into the 50s, is what would the larger ones who had their own works have done if they weren't absorbed in the Grouping. What for example would the Caledonian have done if it wasn't absorbed into the LMS; the Horwich Crab is popularly supposed to have been based on something on the Caley drawing board, but what would it have looked like if Hughes never got his hands on it? What would the Grand Central drawing office have produced if it wasn't taken over by the LNER and Gresley - or for that matter if Raven rather than Gresley got the CME job when the LNER was created?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Or bending history a little less; what might Gresley have got built had the LNER not been in such a parlous financial state through the 1930s? Some of this we know: the J39 was the low cost medium goods machine design prepared in response to the board finding the original proposal of an outside 2 cylinder 2-6-0 too expensive (essentially the Peppercorn K1, but twenty years earlier). But he would presumably have made more use of the Kylchap ejector if there was money enough to pay the licence fee of what was then a patent protected device; and I rather suspect that a mechanical stoker would have figured for 50 sq ft and up grate area designs.

[t-b-g]

That I like, and of course the supplementary question to my post above about where smaller railways might buy their locomotives if they survived into the 50s, is what would the larger ones who had their own works have done if they weren't absorbed in the Grouping. What for example would the Caledonian have done if it wasn't absorbed into the LMS; the Horwich Crab is popularly supposed to have been based on something on the Caley drawing board, but what would it have looked like if Hughes never got his hands on it? What would the Grand Central drawing office have produced if it wasn't taken over by the LNER and Gresley - or for that matter if Raven rather than Gresley got the CME job when the LNER was created?

 

If I recall my railway history correctly, I read somewhere that Robinson of the GCR declined the post on the LNER and recommended that Gresley be appointed. There have been many proposed GCR loco ideas published, including a 2-6-0, a Pacific and a Garratt. Imagine an ECML with no A4s! I have toyed with the idea of modelling the 2-6-0 every once in a while as it was a handsome looking design.

[Baby Deltic]

Its a shame that they never built the proposed 'Super Deltic' which was based on a class 50 outline.

 

My link

 

 

My friend Jim has a book of loco's which were designed and never built (can't remember the title), but there's a nice artist's impression of a BFYE 'Super Deltic' climbing up through Belle Isle.

[Horsetan]

Horse, believe it or not something of this sort was actively considered by the group who attempted to purchase the Waverley after closure. About this time, the DB were retiring their 01s and 03s and the purchase of some ex DB machines was considered.

Until somebody realised how big they were... ....

 

That's why I said "built to the British loading gauge". So that would mean a proportional reduction in overall size (mainly overall width and height, I would have thought).

 

German Standards were unashamedly modern in appearance, and the use of the raised footplate / cantilevered cab predated the BR Standards by almost 25 years. They weren't exactly afraid of innovation either - Riggenbach counter-pressure brakes, greater use of the Giesl ejector / exhaust system, large-scale reboilering, and the experimental antics of LVA Minden (on the DB) and VES(M) Halle (DR) were fascinating.

 

Halle in particular seemed to delight in the "what do we do with these left-over parts from those three or four old engines? Oh, stick 'em together and make a new one...." approach. 18.201 owes its existence to parts from at least four different classes: 03.10/41 Reko boiler, cylinders, trailing frame and truck from the unsuccessful high-pressure H45.024, wheelsets from 61.002, and a tender from a 44. Life-size cut-and-shut.

[cctransuk]

What I planned to do is a sort of pug double fairle. Has this ever been done and will it work?

Thanks Tommy

 

Well - in the days when Airfix Pug kits were two bob (10p in today's money) I think I must have done pretty much all possible variants - but as un-powered models for 12mm. gauge.

 

The Fairlie looked great, as did the 0-4-2ST and 2-4-2ST. There were several other variants that I can no longer remember precisely. Suffice to say they all went into the scrap box years ago.

 

The Airfix Drewry 0-6-0DM kit was the same price and so was similarly butchered - a chunky 0-6-6-0 inspired by the Claytons is one I remember.

 

Good modelling practice for a then-teenager.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Bernard Lamb]

Imagine an ECML with no A4s!

Quite easy to do.

If Raven had taken over it would have been electrified by 1930.

Armstrong Whitworth would have built some diesel shunters and steam would have been relegated to colliery workings before WW11. That leaves the problem of how to power the Aberdeen traffic. An elongated Raven A2 instead of the Gresley P2?

Bernard

[t-b-g]

Quite easy to do.

If Raven had taken over it would have been electrified by 1930.

Armstrong Whitworth would have built some diesel shunters and steam would have been relegated to colliery workings before WW11. That leaves the problem of how to power the Aberdeen traffic. An elongated Raven A2 instead of the Gresley P2?

Bernard

 

A fleet of electrics like No 13, all apple green with full lining, hauling teaks. A place like Doncaster would have seen a right mixture, with steam on the coal traffic and possibly on the services to Lincoln, Hull etc. Something like the centre cab electrics from the NER as shunters and perhaps even Tyneside electric type EMUs on the stopping trains. The mind wanders (or even wonders!!). I prefer the idea of Robinson being in charge (I am a GCR fan after all!). A fleet of B3s and the proposed Robinson pacifics on the expresses. Doncaster could become the change over point, where the steam comes off and the NE style electrics go on for the run north. The proposed 2-6-0 on the lighter duties and B7s and O4s on the fast and slow freights. All the passenger locos in full GCR green livery (except lettered LNER). One day I will have a GCR period layout and one or two of the proposed locos are in the pipeline.

[coachmann]

There was no need of Robinson 'Pacifics'. The hoped for traffic on the new mainline never materialized, and in anycase, the large engines he did build were mostly a flop. Pity, as they were beautiful designs. It would be interesting to start with an LMS 'Jubilee', Caprotti valvegear, and build a cosmetic GCR 9P Lord Faringdon so that it would have properly proportioned boiler/firebox and ashpan and modern front end.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It might be easier to start with a B1 for the parallel barrel, just put cosmetic 'shoulders' on the boiler for a Belpaire lookee-likee, along with all the other cosmetic parts. It is quite remarkable that Robinson decided to stand aside and give his recommendation to the board that Gresley was the man. He could have taken the post for a few years, and had great fun with an enlarged empire. Would the LMS still have come looking for Gresley, who in those circumstances would likely have accepted. A big engine LMS, there would be a thing. Ooh, I want to model that...

[coachmann]

Would the LMS still have come looking for Gresley, who in those circumstances would likely have accepted. A big engine LMS,

A red A1 ? He would have had to get rid of Anderson and the rest of the old Midland chumps otherwise his Pacific would have been a compound with a 3,500 gallon tender and the axleboxes off a 4F.