Imaginary Locomotives

[scaro]

getting away from the OP's comment a bit, but one US scenario that struck me as plausible was inspired by seeing a large scale MLW DL535 (as rostered on the 3' White Pass & Yukon) in fictional Rio Grande black /gold tiger stripes with speed lettering.

 

my idea was a Western Pacific 3' subsidiary up in the mountains with shovelnoses in the orange /silver made famous by the 'california zephyr' and DL535s in the WP's various pumpkin orange/green or perlman era green w/orange stripes, with maybe an Alco MRS1 or something similar in a switcher scheme. WP's square 'Feather River Route' logo would have looked nice on slim gauge steam as well.

 

one that may have even gotten to the level of being a serious proposal but never made it into reality was SD40T-2 tunnel motors on the clinchfield railroad, a mountainous eastern coal haulier with lots of tunnels.

 

in the australian context, state railway departmental draftsmen were avid drawers-up of proposals that never made it into cold steel, usually larger versions of existing locos that were inherently unlikely due to limited axle loadings and lack of cash.

 

there is a fine line between a 'plausible' fantasy though and something that's just 'plain silly' to use the technical term. getting any two people to agree where that fine line lies, hmm, well there's the rub.

 

ben

[S.A.C Martin]

I think if you were to do another set from sheet brass and angle them in slightly at the top it would make a significant difference to the overall look, Simon. Perhaps about a foot lower too. Just an idea!

 

Dave.

 

There's a slight angle in them Dave - but I do agree, too thick:

 

[jessy1692]

Fits nicely in here, recycling 2 old traing hymeks and a lima deltic chassis pretty simple but a good looking loco. Would have been a fantastic machine, imagine one preserved on east lancs........

[Ohmisterporter]

 

The de Glehns on the GWR - having had one dismantled to study the finer details at close quarters, Churchward allegedly described them as "watchmakers' work" such was the mechanical intricacy!

 

David

 

He's winding us up.

 

Geoff.

[Guest Belgian]

I am not necessarily advocating freelance designs but, rather as we adopt characteristic architectural styles and standard buildings, we could postulate extra members of real locomotive classes. If the traffic demands it, we could also propose variants or sub classes of real designs.

 

Discuss....

This topic got way off the OT so perhaps the following would put it back on track . . .

 

In "The Book of the BR Standards: 2" by Richard Derry, Philip Atkins contributed a very interesting article listing the various Annual Building Programmes for steam locomotives in the 1950s which were cancelled as a result of the Modernisation Sceme of 1955.

 

These programmes would have seen additional BR Standards built as follows:

 

Class 9F 92251-307 (57 more)

Class 8F 91000-052 (or additional 9Fs) (53)

Class 7MT 70055-090 (35)

Class 6MT 72010-117 (108)

Class 5MT 73172-281 (100)

Class 4MT 75080-119 (40)

Class 4MT 76115-143 (39)

Class 4MT 80155-185 (31)

Class 3MT 77020-061 (42)

Class 3MT 82045-072 (28)

Class 2MT 78065-097 (33)

Class 2MT 84030-039 (10)

 

(Additional loocomotives) (576)

 

I'm sure no-one will have missed that the biggest addtional build would have been "Clans"! If that had happened, perhaps their well-known problems would have been sorted out and their reputation might have been far better than it turned out.

 

These additional locomotives would have only boosted the Standard class numbers by 58%, so the final totals weren't huge numbers. If the Modernisation Scheme hadn't been overtaken by events maybe other Standard classes might have emerged, such as the 8Fs (which were for the Western Region to replace Churchward 28xxs).

 

Atkins also suggests that Caprotti valve gear would have become the standard, so many of the above would probably have had the gear, these being the most obvious developments or sub-classes then foreseen. Locomotives were intended for a 40 year life, so steam was expected to last into the last decade of the 20th Century.

 

JE

[NickR]

As an idle modeller, most of my "what if" scenarios are just reliverying:

 

1. LNER bought a few odd bits of kit to test out on specific routes - so I have an Apple Green 14xx on a quiet branch line.

2. Bulleid stayed at LNER, and took over from Gresley - so we have the Dales Class of air-smoothed light pacifics...

3. No Nationalisation - so Deltics and Brush Type 4s in Apple Green...

4. No Modernisation Plan - so steam locos in BR Blue

 

TBH I've only reached stage 2 so far (and not very far through that), but it's 3 I want to do most.

[21c164]

In view of the fact that the A5T is designed to run on gas oil, I'm surprised it hasn't been designed as a cab forward.

Does this strike anyone else as odd?

regards Tony

[Bloodnok]

In view of the fact that the A5T is designed to run on gas oil, I'm surprised it hasn't been designed as a cab forward.

Does this strike anyone else as odd?

 

No - it's designed to "look like a steam loco" to the general public. Certain potential improvements have been thrown out because they would require a change in appearance away from what the public thinks a steam loco looks like. A cab-forward arrangement would significantly affect the appearance, so would most likely be rejected on those grounds.

[f#m]

Why does it have to stay looking like a regular steam loco if the whole point of the project is to design the loco from scratch and for it to be new and modern why stick with an old idea about where the cab should go? surely something along the lines on the Leader/turf burner would be more modern than a rehashed standard 5 and have greater visability for the driver and not require a turntable/triangular junction to turn round in order to run the "right" way round.

[Ohmisterporter]

All of which suggests to me that the proponents of 5AT are thinking that the likelyhood of it actually going into production on a commercial basis are slim. If it looks like a "normal" steam engine then there will be work for it on preserved lines, negating the whole purpose of the design of course. It is intended to work hard on modern freight trains where its advanced features will be of benefit. Shuffling up and down a preserved branch line will make the build over expensive and pointless.

 

In my opinion it has "prepare to fail" written all over it. I write this as a big fan of David Wardale and L.D. Porta and their work.I just cannot see 5AT happening.

 

Geoff.

[S.A.C Martin]

It's "5AT", not "A5T".

 

I agree to some extent with the comments above, but I feel the whole design has the problem of being too close to the original 5MT design, and not far enough out there to truly be a modern steam engine. Where Tornado has succeeded in recreating a steam locomotive design, getting a whole new design (which despite its 5MT origins, the 5AT would be treated as - no grandfathers rights apply here) to be sufficiently mainline tested would be a defining factor in whether it gets built or not.

 

I think it would make an intriguing model, however, for a "modern" layout - a "might be/might not be".

[f#m]

Also what are they going to do once all the oil is gone? It'll be in the same boat as the coal fired machines now and fuel costs will go through the roof.

 

A truely imaginative idea would be to have a body shape like the Leader and stick a pantograph on top and heat the water through an enlarged version of a kettle element. As long as the goverment gets off their ass about making sure we have enough clean ways of making power there'd be no issue with fueling it only with the route avalability but that would probably grow as oil powered trains disapeared with their fuel gone.

[S.A.C Martin]

Also what are they going to do once all the oil is gone? It'll be in the same boat as the coal fired machines now and fuel costs will go through the roof.

 

A truely imaginative idea would be to have a body shape like the Leader and stick a pantograph on top and heat the water through an enlarged version of a kettle element. As long as the goverment gets off their ass about making sure we have enough clean ways of making power there'd be no issue with fueling it only with the route avalability but that would probably grow as oil powered trains disapeared with their fuel gone.

 

Why would you do it though? Electric traction is more efficient than steam traction. Combining the two has been done before, but in this day and age I question if there's many, if any advantages to it.

[Guest Belgian]

Why would you do it though? Electric traction is more efficient than steam traction. Combining the two has been done before, but in this day and age I question if there's many, if any advantages to it.

. . . and electric traction is steam traction anyway, it just depends on what is firing the power stations, nuclear, oil, gas or coal (80% of world electricity is generated by steam turbines).

[f#m]

Why would you do it? For the shear fun and of it I guess, would have about as much point in this day and age as that 5AT is ever going to have (none that I can see beyond being an exersize in engineering theory and a massive waste of money that could otherwise be spent on restoring an old engine or building more lost engines like Tornado) and possibly slightly more point as it would be more interesting to see and more of a challege to make work than just building a loco pretty much the way they have been built for decades.

 

Seems a little to me like the car industry, very little actual progress or new idea's just a case of "here's our latest model, it's got the same body and chassis as the last model but with a few more BHP and a satnav so we can change a few letters about in the name or ad GTR or something to the end and bingo, new model." It's still the same basic format as most cars that came before it.

 

No disrespect intended to the 5AT group incase anyone involved is reading just stating an opinion.

 

More on the topic of imaginary locomotives, this what you get if you glue two class 04 shunters together.

 

Still deciding the best way to go about motorising this creation.

[BlackRat]

I did a slightly different version with a cab at each end like an early 58!

 

See if I can find it as I never took a pic and it never got motorised etc.

 

Still looked good tho, I reckon a bachy 20/25 chassis would now do it justice.

 

I have a cplof spare bachhy 37 bodies here and have been toying with a baby 37 and a baby peak on bacchy bo bo chassis!

 

Any one tried?

[S.A.C Martin]

I did a slightly different version with a cab at each end like an early 58!

 

See if I can find it as I never took a pic and it never got motorised etc.

 

Still looked good tho, I reckon a bachy 20/25 chassis would now do it justice.

 

I have a cplof spare bachhy 37 bodies here and have been toying with a baby 37 and a baby peak on bacchy bo bo chassis!

 

Any one tried?

 

Isn't a baby 37 a Baby Deltic, in a roundabout way?

 

I would love to see your 58 bash mind

[Accurascale Fran]

Why would you do it? For the shear fun and of it I guess, would have about as much point in this day and age as that 5AT is ever going to have (none that I can see beyond being an exersize in engineering theory and a massive waste of money that could otherwise be spent on restoring an old engine or building more lost engines like Tornado) and possibly slightly more point as it would be more interesting to see and more of a challege to make work than just building a loco pretty much the way they have been built for decades.

 

Seems a little to me like the car industry, very little actual progress or new idea's just a case of "here's our latest model, it's got the same body and chassis as the last model but with a few more BHP and a satnav so we can change a few letters about in the name or ad GTR or something to the end and bingo, new model." It's still the same basic format as most cars that came before it.

 

No disrespect intended to the 5AT group incase anyone involved is reading just stating an opinion.

 

More on the topic of imaginary locomotives, this what you get if you glue two class 04 shunters together.

 

Still deciding the best way to go about motorising this creation.

 

Krocodile it!!!

[JimC]

If it looks like a "normal" steam engine then there will be work for it on preserved lines, negating the whole purpose of the design of course. It is intended to work hard on modern freight trains where its advanced features will be of benefit.

 

This is from their website. http://5at.co.uk/ind...innovation.html

The 5AT is expected to earn its keep in the operation of tour trains, taking over from “classic†steam as and when it become too slow, too unreliable and too expensive to maintain for continued operation on the UK (and/or European) high speed densely trafficked modern rail systems. If the 5AT were to look like Bullied’s Leader, it would have no more appeal than a diesel to the average “man in the street†who tour train organizers rely on to fill their seats.

 

I hold no particular opinions about the project, for or against, but you don't seem to me to be representing what they say about their project. On the other hand the fascination so many have with the hopeless/hapless Leader thing bemuses me.

[m0rris]

Id love to see a class 38.... twas the challenger to the class 60 design but based on a modular design like the 58.

 

I'd also love to see some european designs translated into UK styles... how about Woodhead crocodiles?

 

m0rris

[James]

Id love to see a class 38.... twas the challenger to the class 60 design but based on a modular design like the 58.

I don't think it was - the 38 was meant to be a replacement for the 37 rather than a big powerful type 5.

[m0rris]

Yeah... but I understood it that it was going to be either the 38 or the 60, I might be wrong though!

 

m0rris

[James]

I could be wrong too! But I'm fairly sure it was a seperate project. Either way, an interesting might have been!

[m0rris]

Yes indeed, and I have a sorry looking Hornby 58 sitting at home, it might just loose some weight over Christmas as a result!

 

m0rris

[Flying Pig]

Combining the two has been done before, ..

Yes, but in nearly all cases using steam to make electricity on board (e.g. here and here) and not t'other way round.