Mk1 BSO.T Scotrail branding question.

[SC55015]

On 02/09/2023 at 23:19, young37215 said:

I will need more red stripe transfers from Railtec and replacement Commonwealth bogies for SC9015 but otherwise I am ready to start work.

 

9015 is on Commonwealths now in preservation - but it seemed to run at least until August 1988 on BR1s. This is 9015 that month:

 

 

[SC55015]

On 02/09/2023 at 23:19, young37215 said:

A number of the pictures in SC55015's gallery show 37/4's hauled services through to 1988 indicating that the BSOT's remained in use.

But note that the only images I've been able to find of vehicles on the WHL behind 37/4s are 9015 or 9016.

 

I did find a couple of 9007 in use at Inverness behind 37/4s in summer 1986 but that was all.

 

To complement the WHL gallery I started an Inverness one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bystuart/galleries/72157722058732082/

And one for other place: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bystuart/galleries/72157722058569992/

 

In the latter it is notable that 9000/1 seemed to spend summer 1986 working out of Waverley mainly on the Dundee circuits, I haven't found images of either on the WHL after 1985.

 

[young37215]

3 hours ago, SC55015 said:

 

9015 is on Commonwealths now in preservation - but it seemed to run at least until August 1988 on BR1s. This is 9015 that month:

 

 

 

 

The picture is dated 1985, not 1988 which judging by the largely ex works 37401 seems about right. Given the speed restrictions on the WHL, I doubt BR1's caused any issues. I think that we have collectively established that the introduction of 37/4's signalled the end of the steam heat BSOT fleet, dual heat 9015 and 9016 excepted, and they had all gone by the end of 1987. My personal interest begins to wane after the replacement of steam heat and for WHL4's 1981 - 1985 time window, BSOT's are all I need to worry about. How many I create is something I am still thinking about.  

 

SC55015's galleries provide excellent research material for the WHL modleller. If we can get a few more pictures of other peoples conversions and an outline of the work that they undertook I think we will have created a fairly comprehensive and practical guide to anyone wanting to do their own conversion in the future. Of course finding a suitable Hornby BSO to convert might be more challenging! 

 

 

 

[meanach]

Have we established when 9015 & 16 gained commonwealth bogies ? I vividly remember walking into one in July 88 on the beds heading south. I remember as a mere 13 year old the transition from the modern (mk3 / 2E) to ‘museum’ exhibit had me captivated .
 

The cheapest method I can see for replacement bogies is grabbing a Hattons bargain bucket mk1 for £19. Or, alternatively, waiting on auction sites for a battered one. 

[mallaig1983]

Since starting Mallaig 3 years ago I have managed to aquire a couple of Hornby BSOs which I’m confident are sufficient for the 1983 timetable. I do worry that once I make a start on their conversions that I could get myself into a position where I’d need another to replace something I’ve wrecked. The first one will be a very nervy moment. Working on the coaching stock is a little down my list of priorities at the moment but this thread will prove invaluable when I do get that far so thank you to everyone who have contributed and commented.

[meanach]

7 hours ago, mallaig1983 said:

Since starting Mallaig 3 years ago I have managed to aquire a couple of Hornby BSOs which I’m confident are sufficient for the 1983 timetable. I do worry that once I make a start on their conversions that I could get myself into a position where I’d need another to replace something I’ve wrecked. The first one will be a very nervy moment. Working on the coaching stock is a little down my list of priorities at the moment but this thread will prove invaluable when I do get that far so thank you to everyone who have contributed and commented.

Yes I know what you mean . I have the same affliction and I’ve botched a few things over the years! I’m really chomping at the bit to get mine done but I’ve got half of Eastfield 37/4 on the work bench in bits at the mo and with the spinal injury I’m limited to sitting time. Still , it’s first on the ‘to do’ list as soon they are weathered and detailed. This thread it’s worth its weight in (R.M web) gold. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by meanach
Spelling

[SC55015]

7 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

The picture is dated 1985, not 1988 which judging by the largely ex works 37401 seems about right.

 

Oops! Sorry about that.

 

Here's a June 1988 image, still on BR1s:

 

 

9015 and 9016 are easy to tell apart (on this side), 15 had a black buffet window and 16 had a white one.

 

6 hours ago, meanach said:

Have we established when 9015 & 16 gained commonwealth bogies ?

9015 seems to still have had the BR1s when it arrived it Swanage judging by this picture:

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10226923104416622&set=gm.6039620729478389&idorvanity=573173142789869

 

7 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

If we can get a few more pictures of other peoples conversions and an outline of the work that they undertook I think we will have created a fairly comprehensive and practical guide to anyone wanting to do their own conversion in the future.

 

 

My conversion stalled somewhat by spending a lot of my modelling time on research. This was a test to see how the height of the counter might look:

 

 

Noting a previous comment about how little of the internal conversion will be visible, I thought some lights might help.

I've never fitted coach lighting before, so that is leading me down another path that is requiring research. The second image shows a test with a coach lighting strip bought from ebay and I'm now working on modifying that.

 

 

[young37215]

 

I am with SC55015 on the Commonwealth's, another picture of 9015 taken June 1988 shows it still on BR1's and it was withdrawn by the end of the year.

 

 

I added most of the transfers to my 2 other BSOT conversions. The window panel for 9001 was fitted but not for 9015 where I want to find some earlier pictures because I am not clear on the colour or wording that was applied to the panel on conversion. Later pictures show white 'Buffet' on a black background, for some reason I have in my mind a white background was originally applied. I have not done any of the internal work and will run both coaches for a while to see if I notice the different internal arrangements.    

 

 

 

[young37215]

On 03/09/2023 at 07:19, young37215 said:

Based upon SC55015's pictures and research, my choices for the 2 additional BSOT conversions will be SC9001 and SC9015. Having learnt from my first conversion I hope that subsequent conversions will be a little quicker. I will need more red stripe transfers from Railtec and replacement Commonwealth bogies for SC9015 but otherwise I am ready to start work. Commonwealth bogies might be a short term challenge, based on my efforts to find some I find that Hornby spares appear thin on the ground. A set were sold on Ebay June 2023 but there are none around that I can find at present. Worst case is I will run SC9015 with BR1's in the short term and hope to find replacement bogies at a later date.

 

I am not sure what I was thinking when I started rabbiting about Commonwealth's for 9015, from everything that has been seen to date it had BR1's for its entire WHL career. I suspect I was confusing 9015 with 9005 which was built with Commonwealths and which is included on the Railtec 3025 transfers.  I had identified a new R4773 CK with Commonwealths but at £40 I was hesitating; a good job I have woken up!

 

 

[billywhizz]

Made a start on my my BSO(T) conversion. Reduced the coach to its component parts. The shade of blue Hornby use is way too dark and I’ve never been happy when Hornby coaches are next to other manufacturers locos or coaches so decided to try a full repaint. The body went into the IPA bath for 24hours which stripped off the factory paint. Next job will be to remove the end footsteps off the body, a scrub with cheap kitchen cleaner, then a couple of coats of Tamiya white surface primer. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by billywhizz
Add context

[SC55015]

5 hours ago, billywhizz said:

Next job will be to remove the end footsteps off the body, a scrub with cheap kitchen cleaner, then a couple of coats of Tamiya white surface primer.

Associated with the footsteps is the handrail on the brake end of the roof which allowed staff to haul themselves from the footsteps onto the roof, this was often removed too. It was only fitted at that end as the water pipes served the purpose at the other end.

And the two periscopes above the van were also removed long before the BSOT era.

Edited September 7, 2023 by SC55015

[billywhizz]

19 minutes ago, SC55015 said:

Associated with the footsteps is the handrail on the brake end of the roof which allowed staff to haul themselves from the footsteps onto the roof, this was often removed too. It was only fitted at that end as the water pipes served the purpose at the other end.

And the two periscopes above the van were also removed long before the BSOT era.

That is great info, thanks. I will remove the periscopes and hand rail at the van end as well. 
Cheers. 
Bill. 

[SC55015]

An update on where I am at.

When I fitted my counter I was able to leave the edge of the seating/table in place, that left plenty of strength in that area:

 

On the counter top I didn't do a trolley cutout. The trolleys were a neat fit into the counters so instead I just made it look like a trolley was there:

 

As mine came with Commonwealth bogies I'm going with a plastic interior, where the seat sides were also covered in laminate. The two saloons were different colours, a lime green in the original non-smoking section, and red for smoking. Mine maybe looks a bit pinkish, I was going for a faded look. The seats are a dark grey for Trojan moquette.

By the BSOT era the whole coach was non-smoking, and many vehicles seem to have retained the original triangle non-smoking signs on the original half and round ones on the re-designated half. The Hornby model comes with the triangle ones and will need the round ones adding to the other end.

I should be getting a delivery of resistors today so I can progress the lighting, and transfers have now been ordered from Railtec - they'll take a week or so to reach this part of the world.
 

[billywhizz]

Looks great @SC55015

A little progress here as well this evening. Following advice from @SC55015 the hand rail at the guards end and periscopes have been removed from the bodyshell  (thankfully managed not to destroy the roof ribs)

Seating bay cut out using a razor saw for the vertical cuts and piercing saw for the horizontal cut. New floor cut from 1mm styrene (25mm x 31mm) 

hopefully get some primer on the body tomorrow and complete building up the buffet area. 

[young37215]

8 hours ago, billywhizz said:

Looks great @SC55015

A little progress here as well this evening. Following advice from @SC55015 the hand rail at the guards end and periscopes have been removed from the bodyshell  (thankfully managed not to destroy the roof ribs)

Seating bay cut out using a razor saw for the vertical cuts and piercing saw for the horizontal cut. New floor cut from 1mm styrene (25mm x 31mm) 

hopefully get some primer on the body tomorrow and complete building up the buffet area. 

 

Very brave to strip the paint. I agree that the Hornby blue is a poor representation of BR Blue but I have always resisted the urge to change it simply because I do'nt think I get get anywhere near the factory finish. You have me thinking that I might try a thin white wash and see if that has any effect. 

 

On a point of detail, I think that 3 end steps should be removed leaving only the bottom 2 which is just about visible on the picture below. 

 

 

 

 

[billywhizz]

Hi @young37215 I did look at using a thin white wash to act as a filter and lighten the blue but after damaging the paint trying to remove the coach numbers, I thought I might as well have a go at a complete repaint. 
Thanks for clarification on the step. Some photos show 2 steps, some are 3 steps. I will remove it before priming hopefully later today. 

[SC55015]

14 hours ago, billywhizz said:

A little progress here as well this evening. Following advice from @SC55015 the hand rail at the guards end and periscopes have been removed from the bodyshell  (thankfully managed not to destroy the roof ribs)
 

The picture is a little blurry at this corner but it looks like you've removed the handrail from the left side of the footsteps.
Apologies if I did not write my original note clear enough - I meant the short handrail on the roof at this end.

 

 

The plank above the gangway was also removed on mk1s at the same time as the footsteps.

At least the side handrail can easily be replaced with wire and will look much better for doing so.

 

The works so far is looking great - much neater than my attempt.

I am also not brave enough to do a full repaint. Sadly it's not just the blue that's too dark, the grey is too white when running with Bachmann coaches. At least for my Mk3 sleeper rake (my second BSOT conversion will be 9015 or 9016 for that) I have two Hornby sleepers and Hornby air con Mk2s (TSO and BSO) for the London portion. For the Scottish portion I might have to try and pick up a Hornby TSO or two to go with the BSOT, then at least the full train would match in their wrong colours. Except when it runs with an ETHEL, Aghhh!

[young37215]

I had not picked up on the periscopes which I will cut off of my 3 conversions. The roofs all need another coat of grime so covering a few scratches created by cutting should not be too challenging. The brake end pipe work is somewhat confusing, I was intending to create my own to replace the unrealistic Hornby molded pipes but when I started looking there are differing arrangements. Whilst many have full length pipework, a number have abbreviated pipes. For example, 1985 and 37049 with only a short section of pipe. The same arranagment can be seen in the 1985 picture I posted yesterday. Most confusing, as has been said before it seems a picture of the individual BSOT is required if you want detail to be 100% accurate.  

 

Can anyone explain what the pipework at the brake end did? better still why did the pipes get cut back?

 

 

The 1983 picture of what looks like SC9000 (the top window painted white) suggests full pipework.

 

 

The abbreviated pipes on 9001 soon after conversion 

 

 

The same on this unidentified BSOT

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by young37215

[Flood]

There was only ever a handrail at the brake end. The 1983 photo with 37108 shows this handrail as well but the front curve of the 37 (between the side and front windows) makes it appear that there are pipes going to the roof.

[meanach]

Something of note there is that in the photo of the unidentified BSOT the colour is a deep blue. Compare that to its more worn stable mate which has a distinct early B.R blue green tint to it. 

[SC55015]

6 hours ago, young37215 said:

Can anyone explain what the pipework at the brake end did? better still why did the pipes get cut back?

If anyone has the Parkin book there might be a better explanation but here is my take.

When Mk1s started to be built there was seen the need for staff to be able to climb onto the roof. So there were the footsteps, a long handrail for the staff to hold onto as the climb up top and a handrail on the roof* to grab as they transitioned from the steps to the roof. There was also a plank above the gangway, this was probably more for stepping from one vehicle to the next to avoid them stepping onto the soft gangway cover.

 

* some BSOTs retained this, some did not.

At some point they decided roof access was no longer needed (electrification?). However staff still needed to clamber so far up the end from track level 1) to put on a tail lamp and 2) reset the pass-comm, the 'butterfly' being at cantrail level (this was on the buffet/waterpipe end of a BSOT). Just the lower end step was suffice for this (there was also a step just below the body edge and one on a bracket between that and the track). I'm guessing that this changed happened before the 1963/Commonwealth vehicles were built and there was then no longer the need for the longer handrail on the non-butterfly end so a shorter handrail was used instead, which looks equivalent to the one on the opposite side.
 

Some of the photos also show BR1 bogie vehicles with the shorter handrail, but these vehicles will have passed through works many times so may have had handrails switched. These does seem to be a correlation between those with ridge roof vents (9000/1/15 - long handrails) and scallop vents (all others - short handrails)?

 

[SC55015]

7 hours ago, young37215 said:

The same on this unidentified BSOT

 

This is 9016 (no window frames, scallop roof vents).

[SC55015]

This picture might help clarify my notes on the handrails. The first (from the 9001 image at Cowlairs) is the original full height style. The second is the shorter later style and seems to be identical to the one at the opposite side of the gangway. Third is 9015 - it seemed to have it's own style.

 

[billywhizz]

DOH!! Sorry @SC55015 it was me not reading your post properly. However, on the plus side, more good, detailed info has emerged on the thread. As you said, some brass wire will sort it. 

[billywhizz]

Productive couple of hours this evening. 
Roof hand rail and boards above the corridor connections now removed from the bodyshell. Bodyshell scrubbed again with cheap kitchen cream cleaner ready for primer tomorrow. 

Made up the buffet counter and new partitions which have been fitted to the false floor and the whole thing glued into the interior. (Humbrol Liquid Poly works a treat on the plastic Hornby have used for the interior)