DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎14‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 19:38, halsey said:

 

Final report on the Heljan Railbus - the original retailer refunded my costs in full (incl my postage costs) the DCC installer was sadly less generous and only refunded the bare minimum which was poor bearing in mind he clearly didn't test the loco before sending it back to me as others have suggested should have happened - but taking all factors into account especially that I did this from an armchair with no petrol or parking costs I'll write it off to experience even though I'm £20'ish out of pocket.

 

Back to modelling...………………...

Hi there,

Do persevere with AGR. I've had a couple of DCC fittings they did for me not work, but they have sorted them out for me.

Admittedly I have the advantage of them only being 20 mins walk away!

Hope your "Rails" loco turns up soon, should be ok now they have spotted the problem.

Best regards

Paul

 

[halsey]

OK - new (related topic) DCC in use

 

I haven't delved at all deeply into CV settings but the more I'm "driving trains" the more I miss the feel of DC and the tangible connection between what you do with the control dial and how it relates to the loco's movement - as my DCC is set up this seems at best unpredictable and at worst very annoying

Is it me, is it my settings, is it my system choice - I'm not prepared to move away from handheld with a dial - PA2

Please don't bury me with heavily IT based replies note the topic title but I'm happy to learn more

Cheers

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by halsey

[Pete the Elaner]

16 minutes ago, halsey said:

OK - new (related topic) DCC in use

 

I haven't delved at all deeply into CV settings but the more I'm "driving trains" the more I miss the feel of DC and the tangible connection between what you do with the control dial and how it relates to the loco's movement - as my DCC is set up this seems at best unpredictable and at worst very annoying

Is it me, is it my settings, is it my system choice - I'm not prepared to move away from handheld with a dial - PA2

Please don't bury me with heavily IT based replies note the topic title but I'm happy to learn more

Cheers

 

 

 

Don't dismiss the possibility that DCC is something you don't enjoy using & is therefore not for you. I doubt anyone has a problem with anybody feeling this.

It is when someone tries to claim "DCC is rubbish because it does not do xxx very well" that some find annoying, when xxx is something DC cannot even offer.

 

You can make the control feel as direct as a DC controller, but it involves CV changes (setting CV3 & 4 both to zero for each loco).

[halsey]

19 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Don't dismiss the possibility that DCC is something you don't enjoy using & is therefore not for you. I doubt anyone has a problem with anybody feeling this.

It is when someone tries to claim "DCC is rubbish because it does not do xxx very well" that some find annoying, when xxx is something DC cannot even offer.

 

You can make the control feel as direct as a DC controller, but it involves CV changes (setting CV3 & 4 both to zero for each loco).

Hi,

TBC I have NO intention of reverting back to DC - I am a convert for many reasons - BUT I don't like the techy aspects and probably never will in the same way that I don't like modern car engines as opposed to classics - as you cant play with them!

 

All I am looking for is sensible guidance to resolve my issues as much as is possible - I will try the zero re-settings - thanks

 

[BoD]

28 minutes ago, halsey said:

I will try the zero re-settings - thanks

 

If you have sound decoders fitted that may affect the synchronisation and how the sound relates to movement.

Don’t forget to record the CV settings before you change them so that if worse comes to worse you can reset them to what they were originally.

[halsey]

7 minutes ago, BoD said:

If you have sound decoders fitted that may affect the synchronisation and how the sound relates to movement.

Don’t forget to record the CV settings before you change them so that if worse comes to worse you can reset them to what they were originally.

 

No sound decoders and I can always revert to factory CV8 8 if any issues

[Crosland]

3 hours ago, halsey said:

the more I'm "driving trains" the more I miss the feel of DC and the tangible connection between what you do with the control dial and how it relates to the loco's movement - as my DCC is set up this seems at best unpredictable and at worst very annoying

 

Is it a lag in response to the control? That means the decoder is set for simulated acceleration and decelleration. You need to set two CVs to zero, but I haven't got the specs in front of me. I'm sure someone will be along with the correct CVs...

 

There's no reason that DCC can't give the same instant response that you get with a basic DC controller.

[Oldddudders]

Altering CVs 3&4 is the sum total of what many do with their locomotives, at least initially, simply because they give the loco its basic personality. For a shunting loco, which may seldom get above 15 SMPH (Scale MPH), and spends a lot of time buffering up to wagons, then a close-to-zero figure in CVs 3&4 makes a lot of sense. It will start and stop virtually instantly. But a pacific used on mainline duties might have greater values in those CVs, so that when it leaves the station you simply set the desired max speed and watch it ease gently away and accelerate realistically slowly to that speed, the decoder doing the job for you. 

[halsey]

Just (re) set one loco to "0" on CVs 3 and 4 and that has restored it to what I initially want - thanks all

 

My "new" Rails loco has finally arrived and is chugging away happily as I type - so far so good...………….

 

This will be the last loco purchase for a while now...………..

 

All good

[boxbrownie]

14 minutes ago, halsey said:

This will be the last loco purchase for a while now...………..

 

Of course it will be........

[halsey]

2 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Of course it will be........

 

I say that as I've had a bit too much hassle with the last couple and I now have 7 locos running well with no intention of stabling 20+ ever - also our summer boating season begins to be on the horizon so there wont be any more expenditure until next winter - unless we are all in quarantine - I have already "stock piled enough kits and general modelling "items" to keep me happy for quite a while now...……...

[boxbrownie]

4 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

I say that as I've had a bit too much hassle with the last couple and I now have 7 locos running well with no intention of stabling 20+ ever - also our summer boating season begins to be on the horizon so there wont be any more expenditure until next winter - unless we are all in quarantine - I have already "stock piled enough kits and general modelling "items" to keep me happy for quite a while now...……...

Looking at the predicted escalation of COVID19 I think you’d better stay on the boat for Summer, by Winter it’ll be safe to disembark 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by boxbrownie

[halsey]

36 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Looking at the predicted escalation of COVID19 I think you’d better stay on the boat for Summer, by Winter it’ll be safe to disembark 

 

 

 

Agreed - that is our general summer plan anyway (mid April to early Oct) but I suppose this year it might be more relevant - unless they close all the schools of course so the "little darlings" are out and about 24/7 causing unsupervised hassle on the system (and everywhere else)!

 

At least winter is departing - SWMBO has just cut the grass - or was it just an excuse to play with her "new" mower!

 

 

The bad news is I've now got grass cuttings on the carpet in the railway room  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by halsey

[Nigelcliffe]

4 hours ago, halsey said:

Just (re) set one loco to "0" on CVs 3 and 4 and that has restored it to what I initially want - thanks all

 

 

You may find that a very low number (eg. 1 or 2) gives smoother control, whilst still being effectively "instant". 

 

With some decoders, there are ways of turning the momentum on and off with a function key (often called "yard mode" in manuals).  In some decoders the function key only turns off the momentum, with others it may be possible to work it the other way, so function turns it on. 

 

- Nigel

[halsey]

31 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

You may find that a very low number (eg. 1 or 2) gives smoother control, whilst still being effectively "instant". 

 

With some decoders, there are ways of turning the momentum on and off with a function key (often called "yard mode" in manuals).  In some decoders the function key only turns off the momentum, with others it may be possible to work it the other way, so function turns it on. 

 

- Nigel

 

Thanks - now I've played a bit today I feel more confident to play/experiment some more!

 

PA2 has a yard mode...…………….

Edited March 6, 2020 by halsey

[Nigelcliffe]

2 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

Thanks - now I've played a bit today I feel more confident to play/experiment some more!

 

PA2 has a yard mode...…………….

 

PA2's yard mode is NOT the same as a setting in a decoder.   Its an unfortunate case of two different things being labelled the same. 

 

Whatever the PA2 Yard Mode does (I suspect it changes the throttle knob to centre-off) it won't change the acceleration/deceleration inside a decoder. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

 

[halsey]

Hopefully some interesting feedback for others...………………..

 

I have spent the morning re-programming all 7 locos to a zero value on CV's 3 and 4 and this has produced the results I expected except on 2 identical Jintys which became more stuttering in character so I have reverted back to factory of 2 and 1 respectively and they are now as they should be …….

[Oldddudders]

Stating the obvious, if programming values into CVs 3&4,  a smaller value in 4 is advisable as a starting point. Locos that accelerate too slowly are a bore, but can readily be adjusted. Locos that brake too slowly may give rise to use of Anglo-Saxon expressions. 

[halsey]

15 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Stating the obvious, if programming values into CVs 3&4,  a smaller value in 4 is advisable as a starting point. Locos that accelerate too slowly are a bore, but can readily be adjusted. Locos that brake too slowly may give rise to use of Anglo-Saxon expressions. 

 

It might be obvious (to you) but that was a useful comment which prompts a question which I haven't yet researched - is there such a thing as a generic list of CV's what they do and possibly more importantly what their programmable numerical ranges are - again in idiot format please.

 

………….. the factory reset via CV8 8 agrees with you in setting 4 lower than 3 i.e. it sets it to 1 and 2 respectively

 

Also most of my decoders are Zimo but is there a way of telling what make a decoder is without taking the loco apart?

Edited March 7, 2020 by halsey

[Oldddudders]

https://dccwiki.com/Configuration_Variable is a starting point, but it only covers the basic CVs mandated by NMRA. 

 

Once you get beyond those, in particular to lighting and sound, individual manufacturers have some free rein to use any unused CV in ways they choose. The NMRA steered clear of these extra goodies, and different manufacturers have devised different routes to enable different effects.

 

If you are able to read back CV8, it should give a number that can be compared to this list to identify the manufacturer. https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/appendix_a_s-9_2_2.pdf 

 

Incidentally, both those links were obtained simply by asking Google. There is a huge amount of DCC info available on the Internet. For example, just ask Google "Zimo DCC CVs" and see what you get! 

[halsey]

6 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Incidentally, both those links were obtained simply by asking Google. There is a huge amount of DCC info available on the Internet. For example, just ask Google "Zimo DCC CVs" and see what you get! 

 

Thanks - I'm not naturally that lazy but the question developed in my head as I was typing hence not looking at google first also it does mean that the multitude of info I would have been presented with has been "sifted" by those more knowledgeable than me as to which (chart/list) is the easiest to use

 

Thanks again - I'll review the links

[halsey]

On 09/01/2020 at 13:59, Harlequin said:

CV2 = the voltage applied to the motor when you set the first speed step. Range = 0 to 255, where 0 is no voltage and 255 is max voltage.

 

Before you change CV2 test whether the loco moves when you set speed step 1. If it does then it's probably best to leave CV2 alone. If a loco doesn't move on speed step 1 then gradually increase the value until it does.

 

CV3 = acceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual acceleration, as if the loco was bigger and heavier or less powerful.

 

CV4 = deceleration rate. Range = 0 to 255. 0 means instant response and larger values mean more gradual deceleration, as if the loco was bigger and heavier or has bad brakes.

 

Zimo decoders usually have a "light engine" or "shunt mode" function key that overrides the acceleration and deceleration values.

 

 

Hi Phil

 

Did the text you posted above come from a larger "document" detailing all CVs and their values??

 

If so its a much easier format (for me) than the link kindly provided by Ian

[Harlequin]

3 hours ago, halsey said:

 

Hi Phil

 

Did the text you posted above come from a larger "document" detailing all CVs and their values??

 

If so its a much easier format (for me) than the link kindly provided by Ian

Hi Julian,

 

That was just my attempt to rewrite the most useful parts of the NMRA document in plain English.

 

The NMRA spec and the DCCWiki version of it are very low level technical documents. They're not really intended for everyday users to read or understand. DCC would be more user-friendly if there was a layer on top of this stuff that worked at a more human level but I don't know of a controller or a software package that does that.

 

The JMRI "Decoder Pro" program gets some of the way there but it's still too techy, in my opinion.

 

The core CVs are 2,3,4,5,6 and 29 and they are the simplest to understand, although CV29 flummoxes a lot of people because it's not really a number, it's a "bit field" (a set of switches attached to the bits that represent a number).

 

Outside that core set things get more complicated and more specialised - so you probably don't need to know about them unless you need to do more advanced things.

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Harlequin

[grriff]

DCC Concepts have a user guide for their decoders which is useful for the NMRA standard CVs https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/zen-black-decoder-manual/

[jpendle]

Programming CV's is where the choice of DCC system can have a real impact.

 

For example on the Z21 app which I use I have a choice when programming any CV of entering a decimal value, so an address or speed setting in CV's 3-6 or when I want to program CV29, or read it back I can also see the value as a set of 8 bits.

For example the default setting on a Zimo decoder for CV29 is 14.

On my Z21 that shows as both 14 and 0000 1110, there is also a list of what each bit does in CV29 on the app when CV29 is selected.

So if I want to reverse the direction of travel on my loco I don't have to use a CV29 calculator, I can just change the value of the right most bit from 0 to 1, so now CV29 will be 0000 1111 or 15.

BTW be careful what you read on the internet we are all barefaced liars 

Sorry, no, what I mean is that if you look at CV29 Explained by NCE they make a lot of statements that are not necessarily correct, but maybe correct for American system and users. There example is completely at odds with the Zimo default values.

 

Regards,

 

John P

 

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by jpendle
Complete tosh