West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[caradoc]

Indeed, and running a timetabled, reliable public passenger service would surely seriously effect heritage-type train operations ?

 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

A problem with the original aim of getting to Taunton was the NUR. This was not because of the main line railway but the replacement bus service after closure. The drivers were NUR members and would have been made redundant if the trains had come back.

 But I had effectively quashed that during 1978 in my dealings with key members of the NUR in Taunton,  In any case to amplify slightly on SE's very accurate comment the real problem had been with NUR members in Minehead, not so much in Taunton.  I am reasonably sure, from what I knew talking to NUR branch officials in Taunton that they could have relatively easily have been turned into supporters of the WSR getting into Taunton and there was also some useful support from a local business organisation of which I happened to be a member on BR's behalf.

 

I think the more realistic situation, certainly in 1978, was that whatever might be said in public the WSTR simply didn't have the money which would be needed to get itself into Taunton and it had other, far more important, matters to deal with before it could even consider it.  I suspect that come the time, in the 1980s, of West of England resignalling the WSR would again have been in a situation where it would have been required to make a very considerable financial contribution and that might have acted as a deterrent to its involvement but that - I empathise - is largely surmise on my part.  Running into Taunton would also involve an ongoing cost to the WSR but it can equally be said that it would also probably bring a marked increase in revenue.

[johnofwessex]

It seems to me that for whatever reason the WSR's financial situation has always been parlous & the idea that in the 1980's they could have raised the money to run into Taunton seems a little 'optimistic' to say the least

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, God's Wonderful Railway 1835 said:

Taken from this site. http://www.wsr.org.uk/news.htm#1936

 

"West Somerset Railway Plc have provided a brief summary following the Annual General Meeting held at Minehead on 14 December 2019.

There were 128 shareholders present. All four directors were elected and the accounts accepted.

The meeting was good natured and ran smoothly with a good Q&A session after the formal business to discuss concerns and flesh out where we are going. Once again, the common theme was openness and transparency going forward and the mistakes of the past are done, but we naturally learn from them.

The WSR is a going concern moving forward and there are some good green shoots of recovery already this year with the figures from April to October showing a surplus of £160K above the budget set and significant increase in income, and reduction in costs. We expect to see a modest profit to the end of March 2020 if the Santa season performs to budget too.

The Rail Renewal appeal is now at £160K so a good way towards the £250K target by end December."

 

So looks better now. 

 

Good to hear but, as the Company were told in their earliest days of operation, with 20 miles of railway and a reasonable 20 year lifespan for track on plain line they effectively need to be looking at being in a position to relay or at least carry out partial re-railing and sleeper changing on one mile of railway per annum.  If they don't do that they finish up with potential  track problems over the entire railway.  I reckon in t reality they need to look at a 25-30 year life cycle for timber sleepers and probably 30-40 years for rail at their level of traffic but of course that depends on where they were with track condition when the railway reopened.

 

Alas the need to continually continuously spend money on track and drainage is very easily overlooked.

[rogerzilla]

Would a rail service limited to 25mph be able to compete with local roads, even if they were jammed?  25mph over 20 miles is not much faster than a decent cyclist, let alone a car.

Edited December 20, 2019 by rogerzilla

[PenrithBeacon]

I've never had any problems travelling to Minehead from Taunton  or Bridgewater, just a gentle trundle.

[russ p]

Weren't the class 103s bought for commuter service? 

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, russ p said:

Weren't the class 103s bought for commuter service? 

Allegedly - although they also allowed trains to be run when steam traction was in short supply.  There was an awful lot of politicking in the early days with certain people using the proposal to run a commuter service as a means of gaining wider 9including council) support for the reopening of the railway although according to some sources one of those involved had far more personally avaricious aims in mind in connection with obtaining ownership of the railway land.

[Rivercider]

On 20/12/2019 at 11:33, rogerzilla said:

Would a rail service limited to 25mph be able to compete with local roads, even if they were jammed?  25mph over 20 miles is not much faster than a decent cyclist, let alone a car.

Minehead to Bishops Lydeard by train is about 1 hour 25 minutes, depending on timetable.

 

Buses of Somerset service 28 is about 1 hour 15 minutes Minehead to Taunton Bus Station, although there are some potentially quicker places much of the bus journey is quite slow.

 

Google maps suggests about 50 minutes Minehead to Taunton by car, though I have never driven it.

 

cheers

[rockershovel]

I was browsing through “Little Wonder” a while ago, and it discusses the issue of utilisation and management of volunteers at some length. None of the issues in this thread seem to be new.

 

[rockershovel]

As a general comment on commuter services, two question which tend to figure largely in the minds of commuters  are total journey time, and “when is the next train?”

 

I commuted to London for a number of years, and the issue of total time, door to door, was always a problem. Miss a train, and your journey time is doubled. I eventually abandoned it as the incremental withdrawal of early morning services meant that I could no longer rely, or even expect to arrive at work at a useful time. 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

40 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

As a general comment on commuter services, two question which tend to figure largely in the minds of commuters  are total journey time, and “when is the next train?”

 

I commuted to London for a number of years, and the issue of total time, door to door, was always a problem. Miss a train, and your journey time is doubled. I eventually abandoned it as the incremental withdrawal of early morning services meant that I could no longer rely, or even expect to arrive at work at a useful time. 

 

 

Which would be where the WSR could well be at a disadvantage as it would, somewhat obviously, have to run its trains to Taunton railway station and taht is not necessarily well sighted for many places of employment.

[Trog]

On ‎20‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 11:27, The Stationmaster said:

Good to hear but, as the Company were told in their earliest days of operation, with 20 miles of railway and a reasonable 20 year lifespan for track on plain line they effectively need to be looking at being in a position to relay or at least carry out partial re-railing and sleeper changing on one mile of railway per annum.  If they don't do that they finish up with potential  track problems over the entire railway.  I reckon in t reality they need to look at a 25-30 year life cycle for timber sleepers and probably 30-40 years for rail at their level of traffic but of course that depends on where they were with track condition when the railway reopened.

 

Alas the need to continually continuously spend money on track and drainage is very easily overlooked.

 

I think with the use it would get on a preserved line that starting from new materials with a bit of patch replacement of the early failures you could get nearly 50 years use out of softwood sleepers. and a hundred years out of the rail. Given that there was still some 1950's rail in the WCML as recently as a couple of years ago.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 20/12/2019 at 11:33, rogerzilla said:

Would a rail service limited to 25mph be able to compete with local roads, even if they were jammed?  25mph over 20 miles is not much faster than a decent cyclist, let alone a car.

 

A very pertinent question.

 

Back in the early days of the preservation movement, there may have been some sense in running them under Light Railway provisions. Does it still make any sense these days, particularly when operating more modern equipment?

[brianusa]

A maintenance train was parked on the Up platform line at Williton, one night recently.

      Brian.

Edited January 15, 2020 by brianusa

[rogerzilla]

I assume the 25mph limit goes hand in hand with derogations for things like headlights,  wooden-bodied coaching stock, vacuum braking (or unfitted goods trains on special days), less rigorous crew training, etc.  Plus, the track on some heritage railways is very, very wiggly compared to Network Rail CWR.

[jim.snowdon]

9 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

I assume the 25mph limit goes hand in hand with derogations for things like headlights,  wooden-bodied coaching stock, vacuum braking (or unfitted goods trains on special days), less rigorous crew training, etc.  Plus, the track on some heritage railways is very, very wiggly compared to Network Rail CWR.

Derogations from what, though? There are few legal requirements that determine railway standards, and as the heritage railways are not part of the national network, they are not bound by either Network Rail standards or the EU interoperability standards. The 25mph requirement simply comes from whichever Victorian Act that created Light Railways; everything else was governed by the practical approach of the Railway Inspectorate.

 

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/01/2020 at 06:53, jim.snowdon said:

Derogations from what, though? There are few legal requirements that determine railway standards, and as the heritage railways are not part of the national network, they are not bound by either Network Rail standards or the EU interoperability standards. The 25mph requirement simply comes from whichever Victorian Act that created Light Railways; everything else was governed by the practical approach of the Railway Inspectorate.

 

Jim

The only common legal requirements are those imposed by ROGS (which mainly relates to safety management) and those coming from numerous bits and pieces of safety legislation of a far wider type such as Hazardous  Substances and the Working At Height Regulations.  There are the obvious matters of a more general railway operational safety aspect but that is, in effect, also now governed by ROGS. 

[Mike Storey]

On 15/01/2020 at 21:57, rogerzilla said:

I assume the 25mph limit goes hand in hand with derogations for things like headlights,  wooden-bodied coaching stock, vacuum braking (or unfitted goods trains on special days), less rigorous crew training, etc.  Plus, the track on some heritage railways is very, very wiggly compared to Network Rail CWR.

 

Very good point. The Light Railways Act did not impose the 25 mph limit - that was "recommended" by the Regulation of Railways Act 1868(?) - and Light Railway Orders determine the maximum running speed (now by T&W Act 1992 amended with ROGS etc). Such matters as you describe are the limitations, as are the availability of stopping distances for the signalling, and some form of train protection system, level crossing protections, ability to lock vehicle doors etc etc.

 

But there has been a succession of various discussions challenging the nature of the limit, and whether it would be worthwhile to seek a derogation, or outright lifting of the limit. None, to my knowledge, has overcome the commercial aspect of the increased costs of doing so, compared to the likely additional revenue (other than for very limited test or demonstration runs where no passenger carrying train was adjacent or involved, usually under a full track possession).

 

For such to work, the present safety validation system would have to change markedly, to one which accepted some increased risk beyond mitigation, rather than the present one which accepts no possible increased risk without substantial mitigation.  Even if, by some miracle, such increases in risk were deemed acceptable once more, by society, given the present state of the West Somerset's track, I am not sure any insurer, let alone any ORR officer, would want to play with that.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Mike Storey

[rockershovel]

Exactly. “Established practice” tends to become that way because for a variety of reasons, it represents the most feasible or useful solution to a range of related problems or constraints. 

[fezza]

Anyone know what the current problems are? Are track issues still a problem? Bank Holiday weekend and Minehead was packed but no trains from the station... only a couple of eastern excursions from Watchet. 

[Gilbert]

I think there is work underway on the Minehead level crossing

[Mulgabill]

Latest post from WSR this week says Minehead crossing will not be completed until

mid September, now. That was a brief note with the promise of more detail to

follow. (Still pending).

 

Given that it was originally scheduled to be ready for a start up in March, that's not

good news. Although I do suspect that it has given them an excuse for running a

more restricted, but less costly service, at a time when passenger numbers remain

very uncertain.

 

At Blue Anchor this week, we have seen a few visits by a class 33, with 3 ballast

hoppers and/or the Hawkesworth inspection saloon.

 

TONY

[adb968008]

Ah..

Just noticed, no trains to Minehead in 2021 ?

That just changed my plans.

[Mulgabill]

As it's quite topical, a couple of pics from today's 1st working into Watchet.

 

The turn sees Odney Manor on duty, (earlier in the week it was the WSR Mogul).

 

 

Arrival was approx 15' behind the 11.45 scheduled time.

 

 

Clearly draging this on the back slowed them down!

 

The consolation from all this, seems to be that we will get more BL to BA trains, past

our front window.

 

TONY