RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 2 hours ago, PaulRhB said: On a personal note I don’t think such an award should be given for it just because it’s seen on tv when Fire & Rescue crews do it regularly without being similarly awarded. Certainly an award from the FIA / F1 and GPDA would be appropriate but not national honours as it would be unfair on others who do such work out of the glare of tv cameras. Didn't David Purley get the George Medal for trying to save Roger Williamson at Zandvoort 1973? 4 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted November 30, 2020 Author Share Posted November 30, 2020 Isn't Roman Grosjean the head of the GPDA? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daltonparva Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-haas-reserve-driver-pietro-fittipaldi-to-replace-injured-grosjean.55uu7NoxZbAD0eabhT2Bv5.html 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 15 minutes ago, iak said: Scary stuff. Years ago, we would have had a horror show - thankfully, the modern safety protocols appear to have worked. I do question the ARMCO not having that crash impact stuff in front of it. The car splitting in two simply shouldn't have happened. That is in need of very serious investigation. https://www.pitpass.com/68696/Brawn-promises-deep-analysis-of-Grosjean-accident 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, daltonparva said: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-haas-reserve-driver-pietro-fittipaldi-to-replace-injured-grosjean.55uu7NoxZbAD0eabhT2Bv5.html I agree with Mark Webber. After this Roman should seriously consider his F1 future. He has made far too many mistakes over his career and this one could have been his last .... I have got to say that I am continually impressed with the survivability of modern F1 cars. All credit to the marshalls and Medics who were there within seconds of the crash 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daltonparva Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, RedgateModels said: I agree with Mark Webber. After this Roman should seriously consider his F1 future. He has made far too many mistakes over his career and this one could have been his last .... I have got to say that I am continually impressed with the survivability of modern F1 cars. All credit to the marshalls and Medics who were there within seconds of the crash He doesn't appear to have a future in f1 after the next 2 races anyway. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERandBR Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 To some extent, the car splitting into two saved Roman. There will have been a lot of energy involved in the engine and rear ripping away, just think if that energy had gone somewhere else. Yes there was a big fireball, but all the oil and combustibles in the engine were ejected from the crash site. It could have been a whole lot worse and I'm glad Roman got out of it with only minor injuries. The marshalls and medical staff really did an excellent job. 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, daltonparva said: He doesn't appear to have a future in f1 after the next 2 races anyway. Precisely. He should gracefully back out now. As was said yesterday, he's used all his nine lives now 2 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 The car splitting in two is not necessarily a bad thing as a lot of energy is dissipated in doing that rather than putting it through the chassis and ultimately the driver. The power unit/gearbox/rear suspension/rear wing hangs off the back of the chassis by 4 bolts and these will have been to stressed to break under under a certain load ,similar to the mounting bolts used to mount the engine on the wing of an aircraft. F1 and the teams will now analysise the data to see what can be learned, but my real concern would be why the barrier failed because even though it was armco he should have bounced off it. It if was due to an opening then the track safety rules need an overhaul. It was an accident reminiscent of the type we used to see in the seventies, which killed Jochen Rindt, Francois Cevert, Markus Hottinger, Gerry Birrell to name but a few, thank God for modern chassis design and the Halo. 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2020 I seem to recall someone on this thread at the beginning of this year saying that they were no longer going to watch F1 as it was boring . I do hope however that those in charge of the sport do take note of what has made this years racing so interesting (baring accidents) such as choice of circuits. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
didcot Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Oldddudders said: Didn't David Purley get the George Medal for trying to save Roger Williamson at Zandvoort 1973? Yes he did. The shear desperation shows in his body language and the Marshalls we not effective at all. 2 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Just now, PhilJ W said: I seem to recall someone on this thread at the beginning of this year saying that they were no longer going to watch F1 as it was boring . I do hope however that those in charge of the sport do take note of what has made this years racing so interesting (baring accidents) such as choice of circuits. I hear that & similar things from people quite often. I even saw someone (not on here) comment that F1 was 'probably the least relevant of all sports'. I replied that most people have a car or use road transport & many aspects of road vehicle design were improved & influenced by F1: tyre technology, EFi, suspension, semi-auto gearbox, turbocharging, chassis & safety technology. Most other sports (football, cricket, rugby, snooker, darts) cannot make such a claim. This makes F1 one of the most relevant, not the least. I got the response I expected: one of disdain. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 15 minutes ago, kipford said: but my real concern would be why the barrier failed because even though it was armco he should have bounced off it. I'm not sure I agree with that analysis, someone mentioned earlier that armco is designed to deflect a vehicle that hits it at an angle. That isn't what happened as he hit it virtually head on. With that sort of impact it will seek out the weakest parts which would seem to have been the joints between the layers. In fact the armco doesn't appear to have broken but deformed. I think the main thing they need to consider is how they design the gaps, that one looks like the armco was pushed towards the track at an angle to allow for the gap. Perhaps narrowing the run off area in this way isn't the right way.? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Oldddudders said: Didn't David Purley get the George Medal for trying to save Roger Williamson at Zandvoort 1973? I think more for being the only one to realise someone was still in the car and pressing on alone. The Marshall’s hadn’t realised it wasn't his car and thought the driver was just trying to extinguish it. It was certainly very brave and deserves something from F1/FIA as I said above, ultimately he was prepared to dive in but just had to help Roman away so I still personally think it’s not into national honour territory compared to what I saw on one I was involved in with a road car fire. Like I said that’s my personal opinion and no honours were offered for saving two people in the case I was helping in and doesn’t take away from his brave intentions in any way. 3 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold StuAllen Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 Just a thought - whilst it looks shocking is it possible that where the car punched through the Armco, that slowed the car down slower than hitting a solid barrier? meaning less shock to RG allowing him to walk away. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, StuAllen said: meaning less shock to RG allowing him to walk away. According to the BBC report by Andrew Benson the car recorded a peak load of 53G, that’s pretty incredible to walk out of without breaking some bones! I’m not sure a racing driver is going to walk away completely and far more seriously injured ones have raced again. Billy Monger’s may not have been so spectacular to look at but he was ultimately closer to death from injuries sustained, I don’t think they are wired like us 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophia NSE Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Maybe Grosjean will think twice about going to Indy car next year... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: According to the BBC report by Andrew Benson the car recorded a peak load of 53G, that’s pretty incredible to walk out of without breaking some bones! I’m not sure a racing driver is going to walk away completely and far more seriously injured ones have raced again. Billy Monger’s may not have been so spectacular to look at but he was ultimately closer to death from injuries sustained, I don’t think they are wired like us Niki Lauda being an obvious example of someone returning to racing after horrible injuries. I also remember Johnny Herbert racing even though he couldn't run for ages after a bad crash that broke both his legs. I remember watching a race where he came in to the commentary box after retiring. It had been raining (Spa I think), and he found himself running for cover from the rain before realising that he was running for the first time in several years. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Sophia NSE said: Maybe Grosjean will think twice about going to Indy car next year... As his team director and Coulthard both said in yesterday's coverage, race drivers don't think in the same way as the rest of us. 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 Quote I'm not sure I agree with that analysis, someone mentioned earlier that armco is designed to deflect a vehicle that hits it at an angle. That isn't what happened as he hit it virtually head on. With that sort of impact it will seek out the weakest parts which would seem to have been the joints between the layers. In fact the armco doesn't appear to have broken but deformed. Hobby sorry to disagree with you on it being a head on impact. He hit at an angle of about 30 degrees as shown by the skid marks on the screen shot and the in from Kyvat. At that angle he should deflected off not gone through it which indicates as both of us suggested it was either a failure of the barrier or due to a gap in it. Interesting though this screen shot from Hamilton's pole lap at the crash site suggests no opening in the barrier. We shall wait and see. Whilst I admire the reaction of Alan Van de Mere and Dr Ian Robert, they were only doing the job they had been trained for. I say this from the position of someone who is a retired circuit marshal and officiated at all levels including GP's. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, Sophia NSE said: Maybe Grosjean will think twice about going to Indy car next year... All the IndyCar banked tracks now have Safer Barriers, which are designed to a different, maybe better, standard from those for F1, with extruded closed-cell polystyrene infills behind the steel. They can't help when a car is launched above them (as in the accident that killed Dan Wheldon) but do take some of the sting out of impacting the barrier. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 (edited) Kipford, my take on it was that the back end flipped round after clipping the other car and it therefore hit it more head on than glancing off it which is what armco barriers are designed to deal with. Looking at the photos it would seem that the first part of the car to hit the barrier was the right front wheel and nose and it would seem it went through a gap, whether that gap was a "photo slot" or the joint horizontal joint between two layers of armco is yet to be confirmed, I suspect the latter looking at the later photos. The impact was not what it was designed for where the car would normally hit at a much more gentle angle. No doubt in due course we shall know the truth. Looking at the top photo you can see how the barrier continued out towards the track as well. The run off was narrowed at that point to allow an access gap for emergency vehicles which to me indicates a flaw in the design of the access gaps rather than a fault in the armco itself. I'd also add that it was a fluke accident as well, they can't cover all possibilities but can learn from them. Edited November 30, 2020 by Hobby 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Watch this video at 42/44 seconds and you'll see what I mean, ok it wasn't at right angles but it was pretty close, certainly not a a deflection angle armco is designed for. https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2020/11/2020_Bahrain_Grand_Prix__Grosjean_escapes_huge_crash_and_fire_at_race_start.html 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sidecar Racer Posted November 30, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2020 Karun Chandhok gives a good breakdown of events , explaining it from a drivers point of view with all that was going on around Grosjean , https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/12146477/grosjeans-crash-analysed 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve1 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 As a matter of interest, have any other formulae adopted the go-faster "satin" finish on their cars ? Or bikes come to that? steve 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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