RMweb Premium Islesy Posted February 26, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 26, 2020 13 minutes ago, rembrow said: Paul Isles, a senior Hornby developer Nope, I’m just the Researcher, although the ‘senior’ moments are becoming more regular these days... 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleander Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 15 hours ago, WestRail642fan said: if the NDM has one motor fitted, would it be possible to install a second motor into the NDM so both bogies are powered? Hi WestRail642Fan Yes and No . I looked at this for an unpowered ROCO loco many year ago. I am guessing the same problem would apply to day, as we do not know how the inside of the unmotored NDM is. You most probly will need the following items. Motor, shafts, all the gears from the Gear towers. Possible the sides from the gear towers. Given the NDM does not have lights . You would need pickups and PCB as well. Then may be some other items on the service sheet. Yes you can try an get all of thoes parts . Lets say you order them and a gear is not avaible . Your left with a load of parts that you can use. This is what I found with the ROCO loco. Your relying on getting a Lots of parts. Its not garanteed you will get them all. Its a risk an expense if it does not work. Then there is the Cost. To buy a loco in compont form is more expensive than buying a loco. You might find it cheaper easier and less hassel to buy a Powered NDM and sell you unpowered NDM. When the model becomes avaible the answer I have given might change with new information avaible. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, GordonC said: I would have expected the powered NDM to be driving both bogies anyway - 4 powered wheels might be ok for a DMU but not a 14 car APT (or even 7 each with 2 NDMs) Hi Agree GordonC I would have thought with 4 Powered Wheels would be OK for the most part, but for Helix and inclines etc, going for Dual Powered is a must, i think. Although Hornby seem to thing One Power cars is sufficiently adequate to put 14-Car Sets with One Dummy and One Powered (ND-M)., I think I will play safe and go for Dual Powered extra Powered Car, then if I decide to run a lesser formation like 2+2+6, I can stick the Dummy Car in which I will have a spare or certainly spares for the future. Regards Jamie Edited February 26, 2020 by 7APT7 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted February 28, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 28, 2020 Some info on the APT in the latest ‘Engine Shed’ saying they will do an edition on it, “once testing and evaluation of the model’s running characteristics are completed and we will cover the development, operation and extension possibilities in far greater detail” https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/british-railways-standard-2mt-2-6-0-update-on-new-liveries 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jivebunny Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 On 26/02/2020 at 22:26, 7APT7 said: Hi Agree GordonC I would have thought with 4 Powered Wheels would be OK for the most part, but for Helix and inclines etc, going for Dual Powered is a must, i think. Although Hornby seem to thing One Power cars is sufficiently adequate to put 14-Car Sets with One Dummy and One Powered (ND-M)., I think I will play safe and go for Dual Powered extra Powered Car, then if I decide to run a lesser formation like 2+2+6, I can stick the Dummy Car in which I will have a spare or certainly spares for the future. Regards Jamie Hi all, If my experience running a 12-car TGV Atlantique produced by Jouef 20-odd years ago is anything to go by, four powered axles should be more than capable of shifting the weight of a (mostly) articulated set. As long as Hornby fits the NDM with an appropriate motor and the non-powered vehicles with wheels that turn relatively freely, those who don't wish to purchase a second powered NDM for the extra boost will no doubt get on just fine. Remember these are articulated sets so, as per the real world, the powered vehicle will have much, much less resistance to overcome than it would with conventional wheel arrangements. On a full 14-car APT set you have: 2xNDM with 8 wheels each = 16 wheels 2xTBF and 2xDTS with 6 wheels each = 24 wheels 8x intermediate trailers with 4 wheels each = 32 wheels That's a total of only 72 wheels in contact with the rails rather than the 112 you would have in a conventional loco + 13 coach train formation. Whereas a locomotive would have to contend with 104 unpowered wheels on its train, a single NDM will only have to shift 64 of them, which is quite a bit less work (assuming Hornby don't make the trailers out of lead). Alan 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, jivebunny said: Hi all, If my experience running a 12-car TGV Atlantique produced by Jouef 20-odd years ago is anything to go by, four powered axles should be more than capable of shifting the weight of a (mostly) articulated set. As long as Hornby fits the NDM with an appropriate motor and the non-powered vehicles with wheels that turn relatively freely, those who don't wish to purchase a second powered NDM for the extra boost will no doubt get on just fine. Remember these are articulated sets so, as per the real world, the powered vehicle will have much, much less resistance to overcome than it would with conventional wheel arrangements. On a full 14-car APT set you have: 2xNDM with 8 wheels each = 16 wheels 2xTBF and 2xDTS with 6 wheels each = 24 wheels 8x intermediate trailers with 4 wheels each = 32 wheels That's a total of only 72 wheels in contact with the rails rather than the 112 you would have in a conventional loco + 13 coach train formation. Whereas a locomotive would have to contend with 104 unpowered wheels on its train, a single NDM will only have to shift 64 of them, which is quite a bit less work (assuming Hornby don't make the trailers out of lead). Alan Agreed. So it is nice to hear Hornby say “once testing and evaluation of the model’s running characteristics are completed and we will cover the development, operation and extension possibilities in far greater detail” . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted February 28, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 28, 2020 Interesting to note that Hornby have formed one 14 car set as dual NDM motored and the other is just single NDM motored. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 8 hours ago, jivebunny said: Hi all, If my experience running a 12-car TGV Atlantique produced by Jouef 20-odd years ago is anything to go by, four powered axles should be more than capable of shifting the weight of a (mostly) articulated set. As long as Hornby fits the NDM with an appropriate motor and the non-powered vehicles with wheels that turn relatively freely, those who don't wish to purchase a second powered NDM for the extra boost will no doubt get on just fine. Remember these are articulated sets so, as per the real world, the powered vehicle will have much, much less resistance to overcome than it would with conventional wheel arrangements. On a full 14-car APT set you have: 2xNDM with 8 wheels each = 16 wheels 2xTBF and 2xDTS with 6 wheels each = 24 wheels 8x intermediate trailers with 4 wheels each = 32 wheels That's a total of only 72 wheels in contact with the rails rather than the 112 you would have in a conventional loco + 13 coach train formation. Whereas a locomotive would have to contend with 104 unpowered wheels on its train, a single NDM will only have to shift 64 of them, which is quite a bit less work (assuming Hornby don't make the trailers out of lead). Alan Hi Alan Very Informative Information, the wheels part, explain's it perfectly. However the last part did make me laugh, where you said (assuming Hornby don't make the trailers out of lead).... lol Thanks again Alan Regards Jamie 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 8 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said: Agreed. So it is nice to hear Hornby say “once testing and evaluation of the model’s running characteristics are completed and we will cover the development, operation and extension possibilities in far greater detail” . Hi Pete the Elaner Yeah... Lets hope they don't back track (no Pun Intended) on the information they have currently put out, once the results are in on the tests hey... lol Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim4604 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Hi All Would anyone know if 370001 or 370002 ever lead a full 14 car set? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfofBadenoch Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 I think 1 powered NDM is likely to be fine. One of Hornby's latest releases - class 87 can haul a fair train. The video below (skip to about 2min 30sec) shows an 87 pulling 16 wagons (128 wheels) easily - at the start of the scene the loco is on the level but the wagons are being pulled up a 1 in 50 gradient, 900mm radius curves. It also does this easily at speed without an noticeable slowing. My only concern would be the actual top speed of the loco which seems slow compared to other locos on my layout. i'm sure that can be sorted. As for the original APT from Christmas 1980 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcyg Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 On 26/02/2020 at 11:29, rembrow said: When I queried with Hornby about the motorisation of the NDMs in the 7 car set, Paul Isles, a senior Hornby developer responded that one NDM would be motorised and it would have a central 5 pole motor with shaft drive to both bogies. He advised that the second NDM in the 7 car set would be unmotorized. Hope this helps. A centrail can motor with 2 bogies drive is easy even with a tilting body. I've fitted Heljan class 33 bogies to mine and the motor is fixed to the body. Even when tilting it runs very smoothly. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Marcyg said: A centrail can motor with 2 bogies drive is easy even with a tilting body. I've fitted Heljan class 33 bogies to mine and the motor is fixed to the body. Even when tilting it runs very smoothly. I've got a NDM that looks exactly the same as yours. It was intended to replace a duel motored NDM in a cut & shut 2+2+5 I currently have. Unfortunately it got put on the back burner when the other APT was announced & failed Now that this APT is ordered the incentive has gone again Should get away from the keyboard & do something constructive with it. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted March 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2020 6 hours ago, Tim4604 said: Hi All Would anyone know if 370001 or 370002 ever lead a full 14 car set? No not as far as I have seen. Full 14-car formations were actually quite rare, only being used for 12 months or so from about Aug 1980. 370005 and 370006 were the most commonly used then, as they had been fitted with the latest tilt package first. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, stovepipe said: 370005 and 370006 were the most commonly used then, as they had been fitted with the latest tilt package first. Hi stovepipe Yes, and it's 370 005 & 370 006 or 370 007 (Built as a Spare) is the running numbers I want most, more than any of the numbers they have released, for the very reason you have stated... the most commonly used. I do hope Hornby release a New Second APT-P Set in 2021 or even announce it before hand, my order would be in ASAP... along with the 48#05 & 48#06 Twin Packs, that would be excellent and then Every Number Released, I just hope they have that in the Pipeline, I guess they will need to see how good or quick the APT-P fly's of the shelves, before they make that decision on a second batch of new running numbers and they could re-use the New Tooling for Second Run of New Running Numbers... Let's hope so, anyway....! Then we can buy any variants that was built in real life, well, that is if Hornby could release N-DM 49005, 49006 as well and the Spare TBF 48607 (Built as a Spare), then every number would be released, Finger's Crossed hey... My first modification, is to re-number my APT-P Set to 370 006 & 370 007 Black Fronted Ends. Its the sole reason I have ordered two sets of the same set... and I just hope, either eBay or shop will sell the sets off individually, so I can buy a Black Fronted to re-number that one to 370 005.... Unless Hornby Release it in the Pipeline, then I may wait... Regards Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2020 On 25/02/2020 at 23:29, Pete the Elaner said: Hornby Diesel & Electric models have used a central motor driving all wheels for quite a few years now. (Even the class 31, which I find quite ironic). I see no reason for them to move away from this for the APT. 2bil/Hal, Brighton Belle, 395 all use a motor bogie. As does the railroad modern image. to be fair, its not the drive, but the pickups / quality of wheels/contacts as well as weight that makes a lot of difference in performance.. Ive some great running motor bogie’d models, but drive shafts, flywheels etc are better, especially when surrounded by a solid metal block. But my guess the APT will have a solid metal block in the centre power car, with motor and shafts in there... its relative price is quite attractive, I dont know if that means theres economies in that however... i found the Azuma a bit “railroad” for its price. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonC Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 19 hours ago, 7APT7 said: Hi stovepipe Yes, and it's 370 005 & 370 006 or 370 007 (Built as a Spare) is the running numbers I want most, more than any of the numbers they have released, for the very reason you have stated... the most commonly used. I do hope Hornby release a New Second APT-P Set in 2021 or even announce it before hand, my order would be in ASAP... along with the 48#05 & 48#06 Twin Packs, that would be excellent and then Every Number Released, I just hope they have that in the Pipeline, I guess they will need to see how good or quick the APT-P fly's of the shelves, before they make that decision on a second batch of new running numbers and they could re-use the New Tooling for Second Run of New Running Numbers... Let's hope so, anyway....! Then we can buy any variants that was built in real life, well, that is if Hornby could release N-DM 49005, 49006 as well and the Spare TBF 48607 (Built as a Spare), then every number would be released, Finger's Crossed hey... My first modification, is to re-number my APT-P Set to 370 006 & 370 007 Black Fronted Ends. Its the sole reason I have ordered two sets of the same set... and I just hope, either eBay or shop will sell the sets off individually, so I can buy a Black Fronted to re-number that one to 370 005.... Unless Hornby Release it in the Pipeline, then I may wait... Regards Jamie I wouldn't expect there to be too many production runs of the APT, I can see these two versions being produced now and that being it ..... unless they wildly underestimate demand. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie Dean Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 Can't image why it wouldn't have possible to have allowed those pre-ordering to have ordered sets with specific coloured fronts and whichever numbering scheme they wished. There is only 7 sets of numbers that can be chosen and 2 different fronts. Seems like a doddle compared to Hatton's class 66 liveries and numbers! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Markwj Posted March 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 1, 2020 Went to Preston show today and saw the apt (old Hornby version) on Alderford certainly wetted the appetite for this one! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie Dean Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, Markwj said: Went to Preston show today and saw the apt (old Hornby version) on Alderford certainly wetted the appetite for this one! I've got a 7 car as well, but with the power car modified with Heljan 26/27/33 chassis elements and motor, with 2 additional cars that Shane (Wolf) was making with brass bodies, and with 3 sound chips (ESU v. 3.5 from Legomanbiffo), 1 for the power car and 1 at each end for the compressor, horns and lights, all done before either DJM or Hornby said they were going to make one. It does look OK, but might not look so good alongside the new Hornby one. Still wondering whether to get one of those. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRail642fan Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 On 28/02/2020 at 23:28, Hilux5972 said: Interesting to note that Hornby have formed one 14 car set as dual NDM motored and the other is just single NDM motored. could you post a link to this page? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 30, 2020 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, WestRail642fan said: could you post a link to this page? It on the previous page in the Engine shed https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/150509-Hornby-apt-2020/&do=findComment&comment=3856020 Edited March 30, 2020 by PaulRhB 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRail642fan Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 (edited) how easy would it be to install a motor into the dummy NDM in the 7 car pack, i dont think Hornby sell 5 poles as spares or would it be easier to just buy the single NDM for the 5 car pack and fit its chassis to the dummy NDM's body? Edited April 5, 2020 by WestRail642fan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 1 hour ago, WestRail642fan said: how easy would it be to install a motor into the dummy NDM in the 7 car pack, i dont think Hornby sell 5 poles as spares or would it be easier to just buy the single NDM for the 5 car pack and fit its chassis to the dummy NDM's body? The option I choose was to preorder an extra powered NDM If Hornby follow the HST example with a completely different chassis for the dummy unit then motorising it would be very difficult Athearn used to make dummy locos. They did this by leaving out the gears & worm in the bogie tower, universal shafts, motor,& the wheel/axel/bearing assembly (which was replaced with plastic wheels & bearing adaptor ) IF they follow the Athearn example then if you could get all the bits then powering a dummy might be doable (at a cost possibly more than a powered MDM) Hope this helps John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 Here's an MDN that's been repowered Is a bit of a Frankenstein Bogie side frames Hornby Bogie gear towers Heljan class 33 Universal coupling on gear tower Kato universal shafts Kato lengthened with brass tube Motor & Flywheels Athearn Decoder NCE Chassis Brass milled where necessary & screwed together Couplings Kadee, Body mounted & fitted at scale? height (IE same height as Buffer beams) The body pivots & tilts on the bogies (as per Hornbys original design), the chassis doesn't tilt but the body tilts around the chassis The pantograph (sommerfeldt HO) is a bit of a cheat for now (just sitting there) The original busbar on the roof has been replaced with brass wire running through I bolts drilled & glued into the original insulators Hope I'm not to far off topic Thought I add this to show what can be involved in powering a dummy loco John 1 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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