GER 10T Goods Van announced!

[Miss Prism]

18 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

And even so, simply mixing the expensive white with black to get a grey happened - but it wasn't what BR had in mind for "Freight stock grey".

 

I don't understand what you mean.

 

[hmrspaul]

11 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I don't understand what you mean.

 

BR FSGrey was a mix of several components. But it could be easier for a small works to simply mix black and white to make a grey - which meant it didn't have the blue tone that BR grey included and was also potentially more expensive as these pre-manufactured components were more expensive than doing the job properly from basics. I would emphasise these are repainting recommendations. 

 

Paul

[Bernard Lamb]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Back-of-the-envelope calculations:

• Midland wagon stock c. 1910 around 120,000 vehicles
• Typical repainting cycle - every 7 years
• Wagon paint shop on a five-and-a-half day week.
• Gives 60 wagons painted every day

Modern domestic paint has a coverage of around 400 sq ft per gallon. Assume a significantly lower coverage for lead-based paint on a planed wood surface - say 200 sq ft per gallon to be optimistic.

• Surface area to be painted, for a typical wagon* - about 200 sq ft
• 1 gallon of paint per wagon
• 60 gallons per day
• About 1 million gallons per year

Essery, Midland Wagons and elsewhere, gives a formula for Midland wagon grey - whether this was being used to mix paint on site or supplied to contractors, I don't know, but the ingredients are nothing fancy, so it could well have been mixed at the wagon works - but in bulk, in a quality-controlled process, I should think. 

 

*About 15 ft long by 7 ft 6 in wide by 4 ft from bottom of solebar to top of side, plus a bit to allow for a proportion of taller and longer vehicles such as vans.

Midland Red, AKA all sorts of other names and in use for a looooong time after the company ceased to exist was made by a firm called Masons. Or so I was told by a usually reliable source. They supplied high quality mixed paint to an accuracy that some companies were not prepared to do. I can vouch for the quality, having used them on several occasions, so have no reason to doubt the truth of the story. As for wagon grey, I have no idea.  

Bernard

[jimwal]

Hasn't this thread become more interesting than simply frothing about the Oxford announcement!

[Dunsignalling]

19 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

BR FSGrey was a mix of several components. But it could be easier for a small works to simply mix black and white to make a grey - which meant it didn't have the blue tone that BR grey included and was also potentially more expensive as these pre-manufactured components were more expensive than doing the job properly from basics. I would emphasise these are repainting recommendations. 

 

Paul

And, judging from colour videos that include trains of 16t minerals, BR freight grey was anything but standard. 

 

It seems to have ranged from close to white (presumably faded) to almost battleship grey, most shades in between and leavened with varying amounts of rust and coal dust.

 

Also, in 1970s ones, freshly painted wagons appear to be a consistently darker shade than you see in older footage. Was there an official change, and if so, when?  

 

John

Edited May 17, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[MarkSG]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Also, in 1970s ones, freshly painted wagons appear to be a consistently darker shade than you see in older footage. Was there an official change, and if so, when?  

 

Previously discussed on RMeb here:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/119068-what-colour-for-early-br-freight-grey/

 

That thread is worth a read, because it includes examples of the many different shades of grey. But to answer your specific question, it did change officially in 1968 to a darker grey than previously. Given typical intervals between repaints, that would fit with your observations of wagons in the 1970s.

[Dunsignalling]

15 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

Previously discussed on RMeb here:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/119068-what-colour-for-early-br-freight-grey/

 

That thread is worth a read, because it includes examples of the many different shades of grey. But to answer your specific question, it did change officially in 1968 to a darker grey than previously. Given typical intervals between repaints, that would fit with your observations of wagons in the 1970s.

Interesting, especially the reference to Humbrol 147, which is the one I've settled on as the starting point for most of my BR grey wagons. It's easy to darken things as part of a weathering routine, but lightening is next to impossible.

 

John

Edited May 17, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[hmrspaul]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

And, judging from colour videos that include trains of 16t minerals, BR freight grey was anything but standard. 

 

It seems to have ranged from close to white (presumably faded) to almost battleship grey, most shades in between and leavened with varying amounts of rust and coal dust.

 

Also, in 1970s ones, freshly painted wagons appear to be a consistently darker shade than you see in older footage. Was there an official change, and if so, when?  

 

John

Not "almost battleship grey" but real battleship grey - post war government surplus. 

 

But beware of b/w photos as the first 50 - 70 thousand steel minerals were MoT and they were in a bauxite or red oxide when new and that lasted years. 

 

Paul

[Michael Hodgson]

15 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Not "almost battleship grey" but real battleship grey - post war government surplus. 

 

OK, so if I see a battleship painted bauxite, can I infer that it's fitted with the continuous brake? 

[Dunsignalling]

26 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Not "almost battleship grey" but real battleship grey - post war government surplus. 

 

But beware of b/w photos as the first 50 - 70 thousand steel minerals were MoT and they were in a bauxite or red oxide when new and that lasted years. 

 

Paul

That MoT paint was extremely good stuff judging by the fact that it often seemed to last up to about 15 years, I remember a few still knocking around in the very early sixties.

 

However, I was going on the evidence of colour slides and cine footage. Ageing in the emulsion affects overall colour but variations remain apparent even if individual shades aren't rendered faithfully. 

 

My point was that, whatever specification for BR wagon grey existed, it appears to have been widely disregarded in practice.

 

John

 

 

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

OK, so if I see a battleship painted bauxite, can I infer that it's fitted with the continuous brake? 

 

Well no, it depends on period. If repainted post-nationalisation then yes. But it might be a post-1936 LMS battleship.

 

On 16/05/2021 at 10:42, hmrspaul said:

BR FSGrey was a mix of several components. But it could be easier for a small works to simply mix black and white to make a grey - which meant it didn't have the blue tone that BR grey included and was also potentially more expensive as these pre-manufactured components were more expensive than doing the job properly from basics. I would emphasise these are repainting recommendations. 

 

I accept that you have probably seen specifications, so can correct me, but wasn't the bluish tinge in c. 1930 - 36 LMS grey and BR grey due to the change from white lead to zinc white? The inclusion of fancy pigments in wagon paint seems to me unlikely.

[MartinTrucks]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well no, it depends on period. If repainted post-nationalisation then yes. But it might be a post-1936 LMS battleship.

 

 

I accept that you have probably seen specifications, so can correct me, but wasn't the bluish tinge in c. 1930 - 36 LMS grey and BR grey due to the change from white lead to zinc white? The inclusion of fancy pigments in wagon paint seems to me unlikely.

The original, 'The LMS Wagon' book contains the 1935 LMS paint specifications.

 

Mix 5, Lead Colour for Wagons, contains 3 to 4 pounds of ultramarine blue in oil.  IIRC, the earlier specs. did not.

Regards,

Martin

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, MartinTrucks said:

The original, 'The LMS Wagon' book contains the 1935 LMS paint specifications.

 

Mix 5, Lead Colour for Wagons, contains 3 to 4 pounds of ultramarine blue in oil.  IIRC, the earlier specs. did not.

 

I have that. Should have looked! 

 

That's 3 lb - 4 lb of blue to 112 lb of zinc white, the same as the amount of black - whereas the Midland / early LMS formula given in Midland Wagons calls for 4 lb of black to 112 lb of white lead.

 

I do wonder what motivated the addition of the blue pigment.

[MartinTrucks]

The railway business is and was, just like any other traditional business, about MAKING MONEY!!!

Covid has demonstrated that no business is really in control of its TURNOVER.  However, the business is able to control its COSTS.

Why would the LMS, SR, GWR or LNER 'OVERHAUL' another company's wagons unless there was a contract in place for them to do so?  Answer? - Because they did not?  Wagon overhauls were somewhat confusingly termed Intermediate and General Repairs by BR and I assume that the Big Four did the same.

Regards,

Martin

 

[MartinTrucks]

SOUTHERN RAILWAY WAGON REGISTERS

In my first appointment after the completion of my BR apprenticeship, I occupied a desk on floor 10 of Southern House in Croydon.  The Wagons section, led at that time by a man named Arthur Meaby, was located immediately above me.  I used to sneak upstairs after hours to use the TOPS machine.  During one of these visits, I was shown the SR Wagon Registers which were about three 2ft square bound books containing (in 'copper-plate' script). the running number, lot number, week-ending build date and cost, together with other data.  If a wagon was scrapped, a line was neatly drawn through the details and the scrapping date was written in.  That number could then be re-used if desired, there being sufficient space between vehicle data for a new line of data to be inserted.  Those books did not contain details of overhauls or repairs.

 

One of the chaps that I frequently used to encounter on floor 11 was named Bill (I forget his surname).  He had started as an Oiler Boy at Norwood Junction Yard in the days when there were still a lot of grease axleboxes in service.  I am sure that he looked older than his years but his hacking smoker's cough made me suspect that he wasn't destined to last too many years longer!

 

IIRC, Bill was one of several Grading Inspectors, who would examine green-carded wagons requiring anything above basic repairs, to determine at which level of workshop they would be dealt with.  At that time, we were British Rail and had wagon repair workshops at New Cross Gate and Ramsgate, in addition to the numerous 'cripple roads' in yards like Norwood Junction where resident BR examiners/repairers resided.  Our nearest Main Works for wagons would be Ashford (BR Engineering Ltd.) although some wagons were sent off-Region.  I can only imagine that this system developed from one that was in place pre-nationalisation.

 

Regards,

Martin

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said:

SOUTHERN RAILWAY WAGON REGISTERS

 

I suppose that Bixley et al. had access to these when compiling their Illustrated History of Southern Wagons series, published by OPC. Where do these registers live now? A quick search of TNA did not reveal them but sometimes one has to dig deeper to get sense out of the online catalogue.

[MartinTrucks]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

I suppose that Bixley et al. had access to these when compiling their Illustrated History of Southern Wagons series, published by OPC. Where do these registers live now? A quick search of TNA did not reveal them but sometimes one has to dig deeper to get sense out of the online catalogue.

Alan Blackburn also worked in Southern House but I think it was probably Mike King that transcribed the details from them.  I was told that the NRM/PRO had no interest in the registers.  Paul Ramsden (now of Rampart) took custody of them with the eventual intention of lodging them in Ashford Public Library.  The last time I spoke with Paul must have been over 20 years ago.  At that time he was going through a divorce and the registers were stuck in the garage of the house his wife was occupying!  I regret that I know nothing more re their present location.

 

Regards,

Martin 

[billbedford]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I do wonder what motivated the addition of the blue pigment.

 

A persuasive salesman from Reckitts?

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said:

Alan Blackburn also worked in Southern House but I think it was probably Mike King that transcribed the details from them.  I was told that the NRM/PRO had no interest in the registers.  Paul Ramsden (now of Rampart) took custody of them with the eventual intention of lodging them in Ashford Public Library.  The last time I spoke with Paul must have been over 20 years ago.  At that time he was going through a divorce and the registers were stuck in the garage of the house his wife was occupying!  I regret that I know nothing more re their present location.

 

That is very concerning and illustrates why public records should not be allowed to remain in private hands.

[MartinTrucks]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That is very concerning and illustrates why public records should not be allowed to remain in private hands.

Agreed, but the reason that they have ended up that way is that the public/taxpayer-funded organisation(s) that one would have expected to take custody of them, declined to do so.

Martin

[billbedford]

49 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said:

Why would the LMS, SR, GWR or LNER 'OVERHAUL' another company's wagons unless there was a contract in place for them to do so?  Answer? - Because they did not?  Wagon overhauls were somewhat confusingly termed Intermediate and General Repairs by BR and I assume that the Big Four did the same.

The NBR information referred to above shows that their wagon had a light repair on average about every 6 months and a heavy repair on average every 10 years. This was in 1919, ie post pooling. There is no mention in the published tables of forging wagons. However, pooling was instigated by the RCH as a cost and traffic cutting measure, and since the RCH was advertised as 'the biggest bureaucracy in the Empire', I would be very surprised if they didn't make provisions for pooling the costs of the repair of foreign wagons that were subject to the general pooling arrangements. 

 

If we take Tavender's data, from 'Coal Trade Wagons', at face value then six months between light repairs represents about 12 round trips, maybe a few more for merchandise wagons and Scottish minerals because the relatively shorter distances between pits and customers. 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said:

Agreed, but the reason that they have ended up that way is that the public/taxpayer-funded organisation(s) that one would have expected to take custody of them, declined to do so.

Martin

TNA / NRM? What about a line society? Those that are registered charities have a public obligation which makes them as good a repository, from the point of view of researcher access, as public bodies.

[MartinTrucks]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

TNA / NRM? What about a line society? Those that are registered charities have a public obligation which makes them as good a repository, from the point of view of researcher access, as public bodies.

Sorry, what do you mean by 'line society'?

Martin

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said:

Sorry, what do you mean by 'line society'?

Martin

 

South Western Circle

Brighton Circle

SE&CR Society

 

However it appears that none of those are in fact registered charities, unlike, for example, the Midland Railway Society, L&NWR Society, Caledonian Railway Association, or Cumbrian Railways Association. But nevertheless I'm sure one would be a safe repository.

[MartinTrucks]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

South Western Circle

Brighton Circle

SE&CR Society

 

However it appears that none of those are in fact registered charities, unlike, for example, the Midland Railway Society, L&NWR Society, Caledonian Railway Association, or Cumbrian Railways Association. But nevertheless I'm sure one would be a safe repository.

Firstly, I have never heard of the South Western Circle - I am sure that is my fault!  Secondly, would the registers have fared any better with these organisations AT THE TIME THEY WERE DISPOSED OF?  I can recall in the 1980s, one Bluebell Railway Preservation Society member vociferously criticising the then Bluebell Railway archivist for keeping 'treasured material in a leaky garden shed'!  Following the appointment of another archivist, I assume the archive was moved to another garden shed! It was later housed in a brick-built building acquired with a land purchase, but had to vacate that building when it was demolished to make way for a carriage shed.  It is only in recent years with the establishment of the Bluebell Railway Museum organisation, that the archive has expanded and has now moved off-site.  However, it is still not quite as accessible as being in the reference section of a public library.

 

The ideal is, I suppose, the sort of building that the HMRS has at the Midland Railway, but that has obviously cost a fair amount.

Regards,

Martin