HS2

[Dunsignalling]

46 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Just dont mention the Germans.

I did, but I think I got away with it.🤡

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Just dont mention the Germans.

Not another penalty shootout☹️

[The Stationmaster]

On 10/03/2023 at 22:04, 2ManySpams said:

 

I think the client did gold plate but not what you expect. The actual engineering designs are relatively basic and straightforward. The gold plating came from all the other aspirational extras that were mentioned - carbon, environment etc etc.

 

There's an absolute huge amount of 'stuff' that needs to be done which has very little to do with what the contractors need from their JV design teams to build the project. That's not the designer's fault, they are producing what the HS2 client / government / legislation has instructed and deemed to be needed to build a railway.

 

 

I got involved with quite a bit if that in connection with teh design and cnstruction of CTRL (aka HS1).  Some of the very basuc specifications, which were issued as tablets of stone, were so obviously nonsenseical taht apart from it being crystal clear they didn't make sense it only took me a couple pf hours tp prove one of the key items awas impossible to achieve once you put it together with another key specified item.

 

I worked on a design contract CTRL let to my then employer and pointed out as soon as I read the spevc and design remit that they were wasting their money because it would not match another specification in CTRL design - we were told to proceed.   having had it pointed out once it was subsequently pointed out again when we queried another part of our remit - we were told to proceed.

 

Having been told the client (CTRL) that certain things in the remit would never be needed and wouldn't work if they were needed and having been told to proceed we were than asked to produce numerous detailed drawings and they were told that would increase the cost - we were told to proceed.  Thus for example we had detailed track circuit bonding drawings for a track layout that was, in truth, ridiculously over specified and wouldn't work anyway just adding to wasted cost.  And having bieen told all of this as we progressed the work the client then queried the cost when they were given the invoice and asked why things were so complicated?  Simple answer - that is what you asked for and is what we told you was a waste of money but you told us to go ahead anyway.

 

This starkly illustrated the need to get the initial spec right and to take heed of what a sub-contractor told you when asking them to carry out design work to what was an obviously incorrect and pointlessly over complicated spec.  They wasted a good percentage of the £150,000+ they spent with my employer when we could have delivered what they really needed (and actually finished up with) for no more than a third of that amount at the very most.  I wonder how much of that has gone on with HS2 and what it has injected into the cost - starting with a ludicrously high running speed?

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/03/2023 at 15:32, jjb1970 said:

If you are going to benchmark, then benchmark across a range of others, including those with the best metrics for a given aspect of performance.

 

Some lessons will not translate, some will, but in either case it is useful and helps inform decision making. Other European railways may be the most translatable for political and environmental factors, but others may be able to tell us quite a lot about technical and operational aspects. Particularly for operational aspects I'd have thought Japan the one to study to learn lessons from how they can run such an intensive service so reliably.

Sorry to laugh JJB but Britain has very little to learn from mainland Europeak railways about operational aspects.  In fact I found the opposite to be true when working very closely with various of them for nearly 5 years back in the '90s.  And some of them were very keen to learn from us.

 

Operationally SNCF was stuck somewhere in the early-mod 1950s with amazingly inefficient use of resources and a managerial structure which reminded me of BR in the 1960s.  I was involved in several meetings with some very senior SNCF people and their greatest interest was always in finding out how we did things.   DB were very good on commercial ideas and service integration across national borders but had got progressively worse over a decade or more at actually operating their railway and running trains on time.  The Swiss were very good but a somewhat on the expensive side of the way things were done; the Belgians were excellent operators - very similar to us in fact - but suffered from a Byzantine bureaucracy where you racial group and religion were factors given serious consideration when appointing people to management positions.  The Dutch had not long received a well aimed kick up the backside from a new top man imported from the airline industry who was working hard to drive resource utilisation up to the levels BR had been achieving for a couple of decades.  Oh and in my experience of them FS were just plain incompetent where everything was 'too difficult' but at least thei trains ran on time although I wondered at what cost?

 

Where we should have learned from many of them but are, I think, now finding out to our cost is that undue micro management by politicians and their bureaucrats is both stultifying and reduces the ability of managers to manage - however good they are.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

But we will have great British Railways well before then.😄

All "franchises" will be held by the government (instead of just 3 now) and companies will be contracted to run the services.

In fact just like the present situation.☹️

Mmmm...

So the mess will be even bigger than it is today as the micro=management by those with no idea of what they are doing or how will simply grow and grow.  What has happened in the past week or so HS2 is just the more obvious tip of an iceberg of interference in the railway industry by the unseeing led by the unknowing (or downright incompetent).    An example I came across the other day is where Cross Country on-train staff have been told to economise in the use of disposable cups - so you get your can of soft drink without a cup.  Who wields XC's purse strings - Marsham St. 

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

An example I came across the other day is where Cross Country on-train staff have been told to economise in the use of disposable cups - so you get your can of soft drink without a cup.  Who wields XC's purse strings - Marsham St

Think yourself lucky you aren't getting tea without a cup.😃

[2ManySpams]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Sorry to laugh JJB but Britain has very little to learn from mainland Europeak railways about operational aspects.  In fact I found the opposite to be true when working very closely with various of them for nearly 5 years back in the '90s.  And some of them were very keen to learn from us.

 

Operationally SNCF was stuck somewhere in the early-mod 1950s with amazingly inefficient use of resources and a managerial structure which reminded me of BR in the 1960s.  I was involved in several meetings with some very senior SNCF people and their greatest interest was always in finding out how we did things.   DB were very good on commercial ideas and service integration across national borders but had got progressively worse over a decade or more at actually operating their railway and running trains on time.  The Swiss were very good but a somewhat on the expensive side of the way things were done; the Belgians were excellent operators - very similar to us in fact - but suffered from a Byzantine bureaucracy where you racial group and religion were factors given serious consideration when appointing people to management positions.  The Dutch had not long received a well aimed kick up the backside from a new top man imported from the airline industry who was working hard to drive resource utilisation up to the levels BR had been achieving for a couple of decades.  Oh and in my experience of them FS were just plain incompetent where everything was 'too difficult' but at least thei trains ran on time although I wondered at what cost?

 

Where we should have learned from many of them but are, I think, now finding out to our cost is that undue micro management by politicians and their bureaucrats is both stultifying and reduces the ability of managers to manage - however good they are.

 

Unfortunately Mike, people writing scopes and not understanding what they are asking for, or what they actually need, or why seasoned professionals keep telling them it's not right, is widespread.

[ess1uk]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 An example I came across the other day is where Cross Country on-train staff have been told to economise in the use of disposable cups - so you get your can of soft drink without a cup.  Who wields XC's purse strings - Marsham St. 

they will spin it to say the are being "green" and stopping cups going to landfill

[APOLLO]

HS2 - Should have been built Kings Lynn to Wigan, my journey today returning from visiting my sister. A real "cross country route" courtesy of GN, East Midland and Northern trains.

 

The first leg was a swish 8 car GN EMU Kings Lynn to Ely (Pneumonia Junction !!!). A quick cuppa on a nice but bloody windy cold & wet station.

 

Second leg the infamous Norwich to Liverpool class 158. The train was on time thankfully (rare), and traverses a zig zag route going north and west on its way to Peterborough, then a bit of ECML high speed up to Grantham, country byway across to Nottingham, up to Sheffield (reverse) then through the melting snow covered Pennines and the three long tunnels to Stockport and Manchester (where I changed). A busy service, many joining and leaving at the main stations. Not quick though, nearly four hours on this (interesting) section.

 

Third leg was a Northern service to Salford Crescent, (change) and thankfully the following train 2 mins later was a Southport train to Wigan Wallgate.  Jet lag ? I had train lag arriving home.

 

Now I know why my sister travels Wigan NW to Euston, walks to Kings Cross then the direct EMU up to Kings Lynn, a lot longer journey but a bit quicker and far easier.  Roll on HS2 (and please include the Golborne spur !!!).

 

Brit15

 

 

[black and decker boy]

Cheshire East council withdraw their objections to phase 2b after securing commitments from government 

Press Release
 

13 March 2023

Cheshire East Council has announced that it has withdrawn its petition against the High Speed Rail (Crewe – Manchester) Bill after securing a package of commitments from both HS2 Ltd and the Government.

The withdrawal follows several months of negotiations between the council and HS2 Ltd to address the concerns and issues the authority had raised through its petition against the hybrid bill for HS2 Phase 2b, as well as through its petition against the first additional provision to the Bill, known as AP1, which it has also withdrawn. 
Snip
The commitments received by the council from HS2 Ltd are known as ‘assurances and undertakings’ and include:

Additional highway junction improvements
Road safety mitigations
Active travel improvements
The installation of adaptive signal technology to improve bus service efficiency on key construction routes
Assurances relating to environmental, ecology and biodiversity mitigation
Assurances relating to the impacts of construction traffic during key events held at Tatton Park
Critically, the council has secured a commitment directly from Government to fund an extensive appraisal to consider what work is required at Crewe Station to support HS2, which will consider the interventions needed at the station to address both the needs of the passenger and the regeneration potential for the town. 

It has also committed to funding the detailed design work of the interventions recommended as a result of the appraisal. 

[Mark Saunders]

44 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Cheshire East council withdraw their objections to phase 2b after securing commitments from government 

Press Release
 

13 March 2023

Cheshire East Council has announced that it has withdrawn its petition against the High Speed Rail (Crewe – Manchester) Bill after securing a package of commitments from both HS2 Ltd and the Government.

The withdrawal follows several months of negotiations between the council and HS2 Ltd to address the concerns and issues the authority had raised through its petition against the hybrid bill for HS2 Phase 2b, as well as through its petition against the first additional provision to the Bill, known as AP1, which it has also withdrawn. 
Snip
The commitments received by the council from HS2 Ltd are known as ‘assurances and undertakings’ and include:

Additional highway junction improvements
Road safety mitigations
Active travel improvements
The installation of adaptive signal technology to improve bus service efficiency on key construction routes
Assurances relating to environmental, ecology and biodiversity mitigation
Assurances relating to the impacts of construction traffic during key events held at Tatton Park
Critically, the council has secured a commitment directly from Government to fund an extensive appraisal to consider what work is required at Crewe Station to support HS2, which will consider the interventions needed at the station to address both the needs of the passenger and the regeneration potential for the town. 

It has also committed to funding the detailed design work of the interventions recommended as a result of the appraisal. 

And the price went up again including a donation to consultants!

[jjb1970]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Sorry to laugh JJB but Britain has very little to learn from mainland Europeak railways about operational aspects.  In fact I found the opposite to be true when working very closely with various of them for nearly 5 years back in the '90s.  And some of them were very keen to learn from us.

 

Operationally SNCF was stuck somewhere in the early-mod 1950s with amazingly inefficient use of resources and a managerial structure which reminded me of BR in the 1960s.  I was involved in several meetings with some very senior SNCF people and their greatest interest was always in finding out how we did things.   DB were very good on commercial ideas and service integration across national borders but had got progressively worse over a decade or more at actually operating their railway and running trains on time.  The Swiss were very good but a somewhat on the expensive side of the way things were done; the Belgians were excellent operators - very similar to us in fact - but suffered from a Byzantine bureaucracy where you racial group and religion were factors given serious consideration when appointing people to management positions.  The Dutch had not long received a well aimed kick up the backside from a new top man imported from the airline industry who was working hard to drive resource utilisation up to the levels BR had been achieving for a couple of decades.  Oh and in my experience of them FS were just plain incompetent where everything was 'too difficult' but at least thei trains ran on time although I wondered at what cost?

 

Where we should have learned from many of them but are, I think, now finding out to our cost is that undue micro management by politicians and their bureaucrats is both stultifying and reduces the ability of managers to manage - however good they are.

 

Interesting, this is part of why I feel we need to look more widely to identify where we can learn. And positive benchmarking (in cases where Britain does it better) is still a useful exercise. There's a body of opinion in Britain that thinks the grass is always greener on the other side and likes to deride anything and everything at home.

 

I'm not a chest thumping nationalist but I have to say, if we park the current issues for a moment (which I don't doubt are a nightmare for rail users) my experience of rail travel over many years has been that British trains stand much better comparison internationally than most want to admit. My last few experiences of German rail services have been anything but positive and the last time I used SBB my train was cancelled mid journey with everyone de-trained and expected to figure out how to continue their journey, which is not ideal if you're going to Geneve airport to take a flight. In the case of SBB I don't doubt my experience was atypical and not representative, but that is equally so for some of the disturbances that cause people to get pitchforks out in Britain.

 

The one railway I have used which really did make Britain look mediocre and make me think 'this is how a railway should run' is Japan, but for most British and European people it is out of sight and out of mind. It's similar in other sectors, European and US ports claim in meetings they can't be compared with ports in Japan because 'cultural factors' promote high performance by Japanese ports (which as far as I can decode is a weasel way of saying that other ports couldn't be bothered to try and manage themselves properly or do the hard work that high operational performance demands).

 

And, yes, I am a record with a scratch, but the Chinese HSR service is superb and works extremely well. I do think that we in Britain and indeed Europe in general should look around the world and swallow pride to see what (if anything) we can learn.

[APOLLO]

I like travelling by train in Thailand, come hell or high water the trains run !!

 

The junction signals are interesting, Port or Starboard !!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Brit15

[lmsforever]

Had to go to  Quainton this morning past the works outside Waddesdon large crane lifting concrete beams into place think it must be for the Waddesdon bypass where it crosses HS2 ,the route towards the bypass from the Quainton direction has been cleared.The road layout here is going to be complicated and will offer links to Thame Waddesdon and back to Aylesbury via the A41  which will run alongside the rail line .It is good that Waddesdon is getting a bypass at last but there should be bypass around Aylesbury as our traffic levels are becoming a very real problem due to the house building seemingly unchecked taking place.Work around Aylesbury has slowed down and seems to be concentrating on the tunnel mouths northwards with the bridges over the A413 a priority .When you look down across the works around Wendover you see a large cement works and the route is very well defined. I dont hear so much news these days as my contact has returned to Ireland as he can earn more cash there .he said the contractors are just not paying like they used to.but things do seem to be slowing down work has not started on the viaduct around the back of Aylesbury .Also after the initial clearance everything has come to a stop where the Thame Rd is to divert to a bridge over HS2  there was a great fanfare over this work from the council but as usual nothing much is happening.Thats what is going around Aylesbury will be back on line in a few weeks.

[62613]

17 hours ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

Unfortunately Mike, people writing scopes and not understanding what they are asking for, or what they actually need, or why seasoned professionals keep telling them it's not right, is widespread.

Had one of those in another engineering discipline. We (the boss and I) took one look at their spec. and said, in so many words "Why are you doing it this way? This other way is a much better idea, both in terms of initial and ongoing costs. To their credit, they listened!

[jjb1970]

On the subject of high speed trains, I see the new TGV-M has been testing in Velim. Unlike most other modern (and not modern) high speed trains France is continuing with power cars rather than distributed power.

 

Do our rail experts know why? I find it quite interesting, it makes the train less efficient in terms of passenger space for a given length, and most of the rest of the world seems to think distributed power is the way to go (and has done for a long time). 

 

 

[frobisher]

20 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

On the subject of high speed trains, I see the new TGV-M has been testing in Velim. Unlike most other modern (and not modern) high speed trains France is continuing with power cars rather than distributed power.

 

Do our rail experts know why? I find it quite interesting, it makes the train less efficient in terms of passenger space for a given length, and most of the rest of the world seems to think distributed power is the way to go (and has done for a long time). 

 

Not an expert, but could it be down to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".  I'm presuming the TGV fleet will be maintained in centralised depots, which will be presumably be set up for the current PCs plus train setup where as distributed traction would require new facilities which they don't have.  Also, a PC fails, you can swap it out reasonably easily.

 

It might also provide an easier solution for these double deck trains in regards power equipment placement (you'd likely lose the second deck around the pantograph in any case given where it sits retracted relative to the roofline).

 

There's French stubbornness in the mix as well I suspect, and the desire to not follow the crowd.

Edited March 14, 2023 by frobisher

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

Not an expert, but could it be down to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".  I'm presuming the TGV fleet will be maintained in centralised depots, which will be presumably be set up for the current PCs plus train setup where as distributed traction would require new facilities which they don't have.  Also, a PC fails, you can swap it out reasonably easily.

 

There's French stubbornness in the mix as well I suspect, and the desire to not follow the crowd.

 

Maybe its something to do with the 'double deck' passenger accommodation and a lack of room to install traction equipment as a result.

 

(Note I know there are double deck EMUs out there - but they will have rather different performance requirements to a high speed train)

[jjb1970]

Japan has had a number of double deck Shinkansen trains, both in terms of some double deck coaches and as complete double deck trains, however all current in-service trains are single deck.

 

I think one of the best looking of all the Shinkansen sets was the E4 MAX, here is my Kato model in N. It's one of those trains that I think has to be seen in the metal, it often looks ugly in image form but I found an almost organic quality about the nose contours in person. Even the rather ugly E5 & E6 have a certain presence in reality.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

40 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

On the subject of high speed trains, I see the new TGV-M has been testing in Velim. Unlike most other modern (and not modern) high speed trains France is continuing with power cars rather than distributed power.

 

Do our rail experts know why? I find it quite interesting, it makes the train less efficient in terms of passenger space for a given length, and most of the rest of the world seems to think distributed power is the way to go (and has done for a long time). 

 

 

The way the traction kit is arranged in TGV power cars isn't suited at all to distributed power.  Take that one step forward and although that arrangement is very long established it basically works very well with excellent reliability apart from a small crop of failures on TGV Nord sets and Eurostars back in the 1990s.  So there could well be an element of 'if' it ain't broke why change it?'  And it can handle very high horsepower (or metric equivalent) power outputs.

 

The other big advantage over most distributed power systems is that your traction unit, with its different maintenance cycle from your coaches, can readily be detached and a substitute put in its place until it returns to service. So maintenance is simpler and more cost effective - especially in French eyes.  And of course French engineers think in terms of French logic and you only need to work with the French for a few months to realise that it doesn't always work along the same thought paths as British or Anglo-Saxon logic.

 

In operational terms the TGV arrangement works well and in my experience of cab rides on both Class 373 Eurostars and certain TGVs it copes admirably with what in railway terms are noticeably steep gradients plus offering more than acceptable levels of acceleration.  As a passenger i find the ride on TGV vehicles to be infinitely better than any high speed distributed power passenger vehicles I have travelled in on Britsh infrastructure.

[DavidLong]

From The Guardian today:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/14/internal-government-briefing-hs2-delays-increase-costs

 

Much weaseling from Merriman. Delay costs more! Who knew?

 

David

[woodenhead]

The concerning part being the complete mothballing of Euston for two years - that will likely cost jobs and when it does restart I expect the design will have changed and/or they will have to demolish some part done work to be able to start building again.

 

It's a total farce and embarrassment, so much for Brexit Britain being a shining beacon to the rest of the world, who's going think Britain is moving forwards and want to invest when not only are we isolated from the rest of Europe outside of the single market, but we cannot even put in a railway line between three principal cities without screwing it up.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, DavidLong said:

From The Guardian today:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/14/internal-government-briefing-hs2-delays-increase-costs

 

Much weaseling from Merriman. Delay costs more! Who knew?

 

David

 

It's all part of the "make it Starmer's problem" strategy.

[Bernard Lamb]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

The concerning part being the complete mothballing of Euston for two years - that will likely cost jobs and when it does restart I expect the design will have changed and/or they will have to demolish some part done work to be able to start building again.

 

It's a total farce and embarrassment, so much for Brexit Britain being a shining beacon to the rest of the world, who's going think Britain is moving forwards and want to invest when not only are we isolated from the rest of Europe outside of the single market, but we cannot even put in a railway line between three principal cities without screwing it up.

I was told to use a rule of thumb that  one years salary should be allowed for as the cost of reruiting a new employee.

On that basis a two year delay seems to be nonsense. Even if you assume that people with the required skills are available at the time and of course willing to take on the job. If I ws laid off I would be reluctant to come back for another go.

I hate to think of the cost of supplying security cover for the mothballed period. Either that or all the installations in the Camden area are going to get nicked or at least smashed.

Bernard

[jamie92208]

Another new video from the Kenilworth area. Things really seem to be moving on and where the cutting sides are finished they are greening up nicely.

 

Jamie

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by jamie92208