HS2

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Solderpete said:

Major work has been going on at Euston for around three years.  Many hundreds ARE working there now.

Sorry, poor choice of words on my part.  I have colleagues working on the Euston HS2 site; my point is that the work to finish the station is still  deferring many people's contracts and instead of being employed around 2028-30 to finish the work, expecting them to be available 2-3 years later may be an unrealistic expectation.

[Pete the Elaner]

On 17/03/2023 at 16:14, Bernard Lamb said:

84% off our readers want HS2 to be abandoned.

What a surprise to see in The Daily Express.

Bernard

 

That's why government makes decisions: Because the public is only told a fraction of the facts & gets asked for their opinion.

We on here like to think we know more about railways than the average reader (I am sure we do ... & similar would be true of enthusiasts for anything).

Once asked any questions HS2 is intended to solve, they have no alternative answers.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Sorry, poor choice of words on my part.  I have colleagues working on the Euston HS2 site; my point is that the work to finish the station is still  deferring many people's contracts and instead of being employed around 2028-30 to finish the work, expecting them to be available 2-3 years later may be an unrealistic expectation.

 

Probably won't make much difference anyhow. The whole project will be delayed for years just like Crossrail was. By the time the line is ready, Euston's delay would have already elapsed & it will be ready too 😁

[The Stationmaster]

For an 'urgently needed major project' there was an awful lot of nothing visibly happening on the OOC site yesterday!And the curve earthworks by the old substation (finally demolished) indicate that  it is indeed gong to be one heck of a tight reverse curve - even if it might only be temporary (for how long?)

[Solderpete]

16 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Probably won't make much difference anyhow. The whole project will be delayed for years just like Crossrail was. By the time the line is ready, Euston's delay would have already elapsed & it will be ready too 😁

As I understand it, the plan was always to terminate trains at OOC for at least for the first couple of years, whilst Euston is being prepared.

At first I presume there will only be High Speed Trains working between Birmingham Curzon Street and OOC, as I don't think that there will be a connection onto the classic lines to run HS2 trains further north at that point, but I could be wrong.

 

Once phase 2A is completed to Crewe then HS2 trains will be able to connect onto the classic lines to run to Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh, and possibly Manchester using the existing route.  Phase 2B to Manchester will see the full High Speed service.

 

So if that sequence of opening is correct, then OOC will have to be able to cope for a few years with HS2 passengers just to and from Birmingham.  But here lies the rub.  Getting out to OOC from much of the South-East is not particularly simple.  Certainly for example getting to Euston from North London is simple and fast, having to go out to OOC takes longer and adds to the overall journey time if you want to go to Birmingham.  So much so that it could quite easily negate any time saved by running at 200mph between OOC and Curzon St., which once again isn't exactly as central as New Street Station is.

 

As long distance trains will still be operating out of Euston to the north, and some may still be calling at New Street, it could be quicker and more straightforward to ignore OOC and continue to use Euston, at least for those early years.  This could lead the press and others saying that HS2 is a failure because people are not using it as expected.  That might give rise to the scrapping of phase 2B to Manchester unless it can be clearly explained why the initial service is not successful. 

 

As far as I can understand the delay of two years to both Phase 2A and Euston is timed so that Euston WILL be ready for the wider service to Crewe and beyond.  If Euston cannot be ready for that happening there will be major problems at OOC because I doubt the Elizabeth Line would be able to cope with such an influx off the West Coast.

So, clearly Euston MUST be ready in time for phase 2A opening at the very least, but it would be preferable for it to be ready ASAP without this ridiculous two year delay, if only to make the phase 1 section viable.  Building complex infrastructure nearly always runs into unexpected problems along the way.  Stopping work at Euston for these two years is likely to increase the risk of it NOT being finished in time, if it then runs into problems, for the increase of service with the opening of phase 2A.  Why even take that risk?

 

One of the biggest cause of delays in opening Crossrail was the unexpected difficulty in getting a smooth transition from TPWS to the central automatic working.  Such transitions can throw up many unexpected problems.  The Eurostar extended service to Amsterdam also had transition problems between the Belgian and Netherlands systems which took a long time to resolve.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Solderpete

[jamie92208]

I'm fairly sure that the link to the WCML at Lichfield will open at the same time as Curzon Street thus allowing through running to Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow. That's why they initially fleetvorders are all classic compatible

 

 

 

Jamie 

 

 

[phil-b259]

50 minutes ago, Solderpete said:

As I understand it, the plan was always to terminate trains at OOC for at least for the first couple of years, whilst Euston is being prepared.

At first I presume there will only be High Speed Trains working between Birmingham Curzon Street and OOC, as I don't think that there will be a connection onto the classic lines to run HS2 trains further north at that point, but I could be wrong.

 

 

Not so! as Jamie highlights phase 1 of HS2 runs to just past Lichfield - and has done so from the very beginning of the project precisely so it could start relieving the WCML of exsisting services as soon as possible! 

 

Granted it is something the mainstream media may have glossed over in their attempts to destroy the project, but the fact remains the designers of HS2 made sure that phase 1 would most definitely  be able to suck up trains from the North West regardless of what happened with further phases

 

Similarly there has never been a plan to terminate anything short at Old Oak till recently - the entire Euston to Lichfield  and Birmingham opening together, because without Euston you cannot accommodate any existing WCML services leaving a very underused and expensive railway.

 

Unfortunately the idots in charge at Westminster have decided that having an underused railway and inflating construction costs by pausing elements of the works for too years is what thee country needs even though all that does is make HS2 even more expensive for taxpayers.

 

Roll on the next general election and the opportunity to kick the cretins out of power....

 

 

Edited March 19, 2023 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I'm fairly sure that the link to the WCML at Lichfield will open at the same time as Curzon Street thus allowing through running to Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow. That's why they initially fleetvorders are all classic compatible

 

 

 

Jamie 

 

 

Maybe so Jamie but I doubt if OOC wuld be able to handle the number of  trains, and more important;l, the likely number of passengers if they are diverted away from existing services that run from Euston.

 

Just doinga very simplified check assuming only 7 trains oer hour in each direction witha 6 40 minute turnround OOC wonlt be able tom handle all the routes mentioned by Jamie (at 4 Birmingham's per hour and one each to the other three routes.  Now the big question then will be what speed of turnround it will be capable of in a station that has not been designed to turn round trains at optimum dwell time.  

 

Is it designed to allow sufficient speed of clearance of passengers off arriving trains from the platform before carrying out turnround servicing such as cleaning, possibly watering, and on-train catering replenishment, followed by sufficient time for boarding a train load of passengers?  Hardly the task it was planned to carry out.

 

Simple fact - long trains take longer to unload even when their cargo is using its own legs, longer trains take longer to service and m longer to load.  St Pancras International can't match the sort of Eurostar turnround times that Waterloo International was designed to handle and could easily achieve   - it was 35 minutes at Waterloo International and that was greatly facilitated by the design of platform access/egress and service access.  What has been designed into OOC to facilitate train turnround I wonder?

Edited March 20, 2023 by The Stationmaster
correct typos

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Solderpete said:

As I understand it, the plan was always to terminate trains at OOC for at least for the first couple of years, whilst Euston is being prepared.

At first I presume there will only be High Speed Trains working between Birmingham Curzon Street and OOC, as I don't think that there will be a connection onto the classic lines to run HS2 trains further north at that point, but I could be wrong.

 

Once phase 2A is completed to Crewe then HS2 trains will be able to connect onto the classic lines to run to Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh, and possibly Manchester using the existing route.  Phase 2B to Manchester will see the full High Speed service.

 

So if that sequence of opening is correct, then OOC will have to be able to cope for a few years with HS2 passengers just to and from Birmingham.  But here lies the rub.  Getting out to OOC from much of the South-East is not particularly simple.  Certainly for example getting to Euston from North London is simple and fast, having to go out to OOC takes longer and adds to the overall journey time if you want to go to Birmingham.  So much so that it could quite easily negate any time saved by running at 200mph between OOC and Curzon St., which once again isn't exactly as central as New Street Station is.

 

As long distance trains will still be operating out of Euston to the north, and some may still be calling at New Street, it could be quicker and more straightforward to ignore OOC and continue to use Euston, at least for those early years.  This could lead the press and others saying that HS2 is a failure because people are not using it as expected.  That might give rise to the scrapping of phase 2B to Manchester unless it can be clearly explained why the initial service is not successful. 

 

I always thought Euston was to be open day one.

 

The connection with Lichfield will be required early on, it will deliver track and materials to HS2 along with other connections further south.

 

To me OOC is North London and there is a tube/Overground station quite close at Willesden which will give options to people south of Watford.

 

With regard classic Pendolino services via Birmingham - there are some currently, but I would expect these to be cut to the bone for driver knowledge else how would the DFT encourage full take up of HS2 services.  There will of course be stopping and semi fast services provided by a regional operater like LNW.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Just for clarity.

The connection between HS2 and the WCML at Handsacre, is 4 miles further northwest of Lichfield and less than 4 miles from Rugeley.

That’s about 11.6 miles from Stafford station.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The suggestion that OOC would open ahead of Euston, was only being rumoured and speculated about, some 18 to 24 months ago.

It has only recently, in the last year, been taken on as an alternative plan.

 

 

.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Roll on the next general election and the opportunity to kick the cretins out of power....

I'm voting for the "Keep politicians out of Parliament" Party😄

[lmsforever]

Unfortunately, politicians will always think they know best and look at the result this winter ,I have never seen the NHS as it is now and they put their noses into projects such as HS2 .Our local MP was shouting his mouth off about the costs traffic problems and will it ever run.Its a pity he doesn't take a look at the housing estates  ,potholes and useless local councills but HS2 gains more notice from tv news . I doubt wether any new build line will replace the WCML and if Manchester gets its own line it will be a miracle given the pressures on money .Also dont hold your breath for a new approach in Westminster if a certain party gets in.Having lived through several years of this party I have realised that they start with brave ideas and in six months they are fighting each other and to hell with the people. Eventually the money will stop and we shall be left with a fast trip to Brum and then a pleasant jog along the WCML as things are now and whats the betting that Aviva will not be around then probably by this summer. 

[62613]

22 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

 Aviva will not be around then probably by this summer. 

I hope Aviva are around for many years yet. I have an ISA with them!

[jamie92208]

Just a thought. Phase 1 includes the tunnels to Euston and presumably track OHLE and signalling. I'm not sure but the separate contract for Euston is for the station building, offices etc.  I wonder if they  will run ECS to Euston service and clean the trains then run them back to OOC.  just a thought.

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

Just a thought. Phase 1 includes the tunnels to Euston and presumably track OHLE and signalling. I'm not sure but the separate contract for Euston is for the station building, offices etc.  I wonder if they  will run ECS to Euston service and clean the trains then run them back to OOC.  just a thought.

 

Jamie

Using what facilities?

Even if the tunnels from OOC to Euston are completed and track laid, there won’t be anything there until the Station building is completed and ready for service.

 

 

.

[KingEdwardII]

7 hours ago, Solderpete said:

Getting out to OOC from much of the South-East is not particularly simple.

Never a truer word said. OOC is a crazy place to terminate high speed trains. Change trains multiple times in order to catch a fast train - surely a guaranteed recipe for throwing away the time advantages of the fast train...

 

To me, it's OOC that looks like a white elephant. Inconvenient for most travellers. A sticking plaster to try to cover the flaws of the current high speed rail plans in the UK.

 

Yours, Mike.

[KingEdwardII]

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

there is a tube/Overground station quite close at Willesden

I can just see a stream of folk trotting along Old Oak Common Lane to get from their HS2 from Birmingham to a train from Willesden Junction, their luggage rolling along behind them... (It's over a mile for folk unfamiliar with the area)

 

It's this kind of lack of joined-up thinking that condemns OOC HS2 station for me. There are lines running close to OOC that could provide great connectivity across London, but there are no plans to provide any kind of usable access to trains on those lines. 

 

Yours, Mike.

[Mark Saunders]

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

I'm voting for the "Keep politicians out of Parliament" Party😄

I was always intrigued by the concept of a hung parliament!

[woodenhead]

51 minutes ago, KingEdwardII said:

I can just see a stream of folk trotting along Old Oak Common Lane to get from their HS2 from Birmingham to a train from Willesden Junction, their luggage rolling along behind them... (It's over a mile for folk unfamiliar with the area)

 

It's this kind of lack of joined-up thinking that condemns OOC HS2 station for me. There are lines running close to OOC that could provide great connectivity across London, but there are no plans to provide any kind of usable access to trains on those lines. 

 

Yours, Mike.

I know I suggested Willesden, but in reality as their destination is either going to be Birmingham (most likely), Liverpool or Manchester they will just LNW it all the way or up to Watford, Milton Keynes or Rugby to pick up a Pendolino.  I doubt many people from North London will be taking HS2 in the beginning unless they can get directly to OOC with ease.

[Edwin_m]

The reasoning for a station at OOC most likely goes back to the original idea of connecting to Heathrow, and I think was entwined with the decision to turn down the third runway and provide better rail connections instead of more domestic flights.  A branch there would have been very difficult and expensive, and would only have served one or two terminals directly so many passengers would have needed to change again.  IIRC only about 8% of passengers were expected to head there anyway and it was quite hard to develop a service pattern that provided for them without inconveniencing everyone else.  Early designs included provision for a future junction towards Heathrow, just south of the Chiltern tunnels I think, but it was deleted.  A stop at OOC allows passengers access to any terminal at Heathrow without a further change of train.  

[Bernard Lamb]

10 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I can just see a stream of folk trotting along Old Oak Common Lane to get from their HS2 from Birmingham to a train from Willesden Junction, their luggage rolling along behind them... (It's over a mile for folk unfamiliar with the area)

 

It's this kind of lack of joined-up thinking that condemns OOC HS2 station for me. There are lines running close to OOC that could provide great connectivity across London, but there are no plans to provide any kind of usable access to trains on those lines. 

 

Yours, Mike.

They could always follow the example of the new rail link between Luton Airport and Luton Parkway.😃

On the other hand doing that would probably cost as much as finishing Euston going by the over spend on the Luton project.

Bernard

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

The reasoning for a station at OOC most likely goes back to the original idea of connecting to Heathrow, and I think was entwined with the decision to turn down the third runway and provide better rail connections instead of more domestic flights.  A branch there would have been very difficult and expensive, and would only have served one or two terminals directly so many passengers would have needed to change again.  IIRC only about 8% of passengers were expected to head there anyway and it was quite hard to develop a service pattern that provided for them without inconveniencing everyone else.  Early designs included provision for a future junction towards Heathrow, just south of the Chiltern tunnels I think, but it was deleted.  A stop at OOC allows passengers access to any terminal at Heathrow without a further change of train.  

This was very much the case.

 

To recap the station at Old Oak is there to fill 3 remits - with the possibility of a 4th in future. They were

 

(1) To provide a connection between Heathrow airport and the HS2 network. In an ideal world HS2 would pass close to Heathrow itself (Just as the French LGV by-passing Paris passes within a stones throw of CDG airport for example) but thanks to Heathrows location slightly to west / SW of London serving it directly would add too much time to HS2 journeys while having it on a loop or spur would lower the number of trains which could be provided on the core London - NW axis. Obviously construction costs for HS2 would be considerably more in all scenarios. As a result of all the above (which was studies in considerable detail during the initial planning stages of HS2 interchange between HS2 and the GWML at Old Oak was selected.

 

(2) To help distribute passengers onto other transport modes and avoid overcrowding at Euston Underground stations. Given HS2 has been designed so that its infrastructure can handle trains the equivalent to the double deck TGVs running round in pairs you see on the French network, there were considerable concerns that Euston would not be able to cope with the large number of passengers such trains can generate. In the absence of Crossrail 2 (which could swallow large numbers of people) it was considered important to try and divert some passengers off HS2 trains before Euston. Interchange with Crossrail 1 / the Elizabeth line at Old Oak would help do this . Now since the go button was pressed and construction started the Government have announced that HS2 trains will all be built to UK loading gauge and short enough to fit in major stations on the classic network which significantly reduces potential passenger loads arising at Euston. However that is effectively a short term decision, if, in the longer term the HS2 infrastructure expands further and more places get dedicated HS2 tracks / stations or if ridership increases significantly the extra long double deck trains may well be obtained and in such a situation a second outlet for passengers in London would be vital.

 

(3) To provide emergency turnback facilities. This is an important consideration - without Old Oak were a major incident to shut Euston, trains already en-route south of Birmingham would have nowhere to go and be forced to return north. Having Old Oak by contrast gives them somewhere to terminate and offload passengers - just as GWR uses Reading, LNER has contingency plans involving terminating at Stevenage,  Eurostar can use Ebsfleet rather than returning everyone to France, etc.

 

(4) To potentially promote regeneration of the area. Now this is the 'potential benefit' I highlighted earlier. As things stand the land around Old Oak is dominated by train depots - and will be for the forseable future. However you don't have to be a genius to realise that if the crossrail and Hitachi depots were moved elsewhere then this would free up huge amounts of land for re-development, much akin to what happened with Stratford area. If such a development did occur then having a HS2 slap bang in the middle of it would no doubt be extremely attractive to developers. However as with Stratford if provision isn't made for a station at the beginning (originally Stratford was simply going to be a standard crossover and vent shaft built into to a TBM access chamber on HS1) its nigh on impossible to build one later. Fortunately for Old Oak, the desire to link with services to Heathrow plus the possible need to divert travellers from Euston (to allow the latter to cope) means a HS2 station is desirable anyway and not solely reliant on regeneration / redevelopment

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I can just see a stream of folk trotting along Old Oak Common Lane to get from their HS2 from Birmingham to a train from Willesden Junction, their luggage rolling along behind them... (It's over a mile for folk unfamiliar with the area)

 

It's this kind of lack of joined-up thinking that condemns OOC HS2 station for me. There are lines running close to OOC that could provide great connectivity across London, but there are no plans to provide any kind of usable access to trains on those lines. 

 

Yours, Mike.

And in the days when i was there some of my staff were not prepared to do that walk after dark! (And I don't blame them, it wasn't a pleasant walk in broad daylight).

 

Incicdentally part of te former GWR depot site is no plastered with huge tower blocks which are presumably flats so while that might provide local traffic for Willesden JCN - the nearest station at present I doubt it will ever provide much business for the HS2 station.  Tower block sare appearing at various places near the GWML in the London area with significant developments at southall andHayes in particular although quite. what they serve I don't really understand as local employment is limited (the blocks are almost all built on sites which previously provide significant local employment) but they are of course handy for the Liz Line - except at OOC (so far) - and access to employment at LHR.

[corneliuslundie]

Someone mentioned Avanti:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65011691

Jonathan