HS2

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

 

And its not far-away.

About 200km at the closest point.

[BachelorBoy]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Indonesia isn't actually particularly poor. It's had a good few years of strong performance, government debt is low and it's rapidly becoming a major economy of global standing. Jokowi has been a very capable President, hestrikes me as a more capable leader than most of those in Europe or the Americas in recent times.

 

Indonesia may be big (5000 km/3000 miles end to end) and have lots of people (270m) , and that counts for a lot in the rankings of size of economies (I think it's between Spain and the Netherlands).

 

But Indonesians certainly ain't rich.  GDP per head is only about $4k a year -- a quarter to third of the global average.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by BachelorBoy
corrected km to miles

[BachelorBoy]

12 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

About 200km at the closest point.

Russia and the United States are only 4km apart at their closest point.

 

Anyway, back to HS2 now. 

 

[jjb1970]

18 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Indonesia may be big (5000 km/3000km end to end) and have lots of people (270m) , and that counts for a lot in the rankings of size of economies (I think it's between Spain and the Netherlands).

 

But Indonesians certainly ain't rich.  GDP per head is only about $4k a year -- a quarter to third of the global average.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As with many countries with a wide disparity between rich and poor, there are an awful lot of wealthy people in Indonesia, it's resource rich and is developing in a positive direction. It's also interesting to look at purchasing power parity which in some ways is a more meaningful indicator than GDP.

[adb968008]

11 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Central, Exchange was demolished in 1980

But the platforms and that footbridge remained.

it was also connected still to Victoria until Victoria was rebuilt.

Edited October 3, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

Well, this is a thread about a UK railway line, so I think the context about what Indonesia was far away from was clear.

 

You live in Sydney. The distance from Sydney to Jakarta is the same London to New York.

 

I once had a very useless travel agent, I was in Sydney on a business trip and was scheduled to fly to Japan. However it got moved to Hong Kong.

 

undeterred I call in, discussed the Sydney weather and a change of flights.

 

later she reverted with details in my HK to London flight. When I asked about my Sydney to HK flight she went silent and said she’d call me back.

 

she later called back explained the flight had been canceled and refunded and left me stuck in Sydney. I said so what next ?

 

She replied can you take a train from Sydney to Hong Kong ?

I book my own travel now.

[jjb1970]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I once had a very useless travel agent, I was in Sydney on a business trip and was scheduled to fly to Japan. However it got moved to Hong Kong.

 

undeterred I call in, discussed the Sydney weather and a change of flights.

 

later she reverted with details in my HK to London flight. When I asked about my Sydney to HK flight she went silent and said she’d call me back.

 

she later called back explained the flight had been canceled and refunded and left me stuck in Sydney. I said so what next ?

 

She replied can you take a train from Sydney to Hong Kong ?

I book my own travel now.

 

I have long found this the best way. As well as the issues above it allows you to choose your preferred routes, airlines and timings. And these days given it is a few minutes looking on line I can't see the point of travel agents and departments. That said, one job I had came with a 'travel counsellor' who was superb, she was very good indeed but ultimately still didn't do anything I couldn't with just a few minutes of effort. 

[APOLLO]

Manchester Victoria / Exchange. Connected via Platform 11 when the resignalling was done many moons ago.

 

 

 

Brit15

[APOLLO]

Manchester Central, which once hosted Great Central express trains from Liverpool Central, they reversed here, went across Woodhead to Sheffield then down to Marlylebone via HS2 The Great Central London extension line.

 

 

Would have made a nice HS2 station.

 

 

The Peak below is no doubt on a Midland line Marylebone to Manchester train.

 

 

The Midland Pullman - Went from Manchester Central via Peak Forest, Derby & The Midland main line to St Pancras.

 

 

Closed around 1968 ish

 

 

There was a GC / LNER / BR service to here (untill 1964) from Wigan Central via Glazebrook & Irlam. 2-6-4 tank and 5 suburban coaches usually I just about remember.

 

All closed by our wonderful politicians, though the trainshed at Central was saved, now GMEX. Infested with lice at the moment !!

 

Brit15

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by APOLLO

[2750Papyrus]

I really don't know what I think regarding HS2.  Fellow posters on here, including experienced retired railwaymen,

gave convincing arguments regarding the need for a new railway to relieve congestion on the WCML. 

 

Like many major projects, there has been cost growth and programme overruns, but the Infrastructure and Projects Authority report in July gave the project a red rating, stating "Successful delivery of the project appears to be unachievable.....major issues with project definition, schedule, budget, quality and/or benefits delivery, which at this stage do not appear to be manageable or resolvable.  The project may need re-scoping and/or its overall viability reassessed."

 

The phase of the project running from Crewe to Manchester was given an "amber" grading by the IPA, under which successful delivery of a project "appears feasible", but "significant issues already exist".

 

Given a report like this, surely any responsible government must heed the warnings and review the situation?  

[Pete the Elaner]

12 minutes ago, 2750Papyrus said:

I really don't know what I think regarding HS2.  Fellow posters on here, including experienced retired railwaymen,

gave convincing arguments regarding the need for a new railway to relieve congestion on the WCML. 

 

Like many major projects, there has been cost growth and programme overruns, but the Infrastructure and Projects Authority report in July gave the project a red rating, stating "Successful delivery of the project appears to be unachievable.....major issues with project definition, schedule, budget, quality and/or benefits delivery, which at this stage do not appear to be manageable or resolvable.  The project may need re-scoping and/or its overall viability reassessed."

 

The phase of the project running from Crewe to Manchester was given an "amber" grading by the IPA, under which successful delivery of a project "appears feasible", but "significant issues already exist".

 

Given a report like this, surely any responsible government must heed the warnings and review the situation?  

 

The government have caused it.

The constant start/re-assess/stop/re-assess/start circle has had a huge effect in escalating the cost. They are only cutting back on things now so they can claim they are saving money on the run up to the next election.

 

Who do you think chairs these committees? Somebody who wants a peerage or some other kind of honour, then they are given strong hints with what conclusion the government want it to have.

[woodenhead]

20 minutes ago, 2750Papyrus said:

I really don't know what I think regarding HS2.  Fellow posters on here, including experienced retired railwaymen,

gave convincing arguments regarding the need for a new railway to relieve congestion on the WCML. 

 

Like many major projects, there has been cost growth and programme overruns, but the Infrastructure and Projects Authority report in July gave the project a red rating, stating "Successful delivery of the project appears to be unachievable.....major issues with project definition, schedule, budget, quality and/or benefits delivery, which at this stage do not appear to be manageable or resolvable.  The project may need re-scoping and/or its overall viability reassessed."

 

The phase of the project running from Crewe to Manchester was given an "amber" grading by the IPA, under which successful delivery of a project "appears feasible", but "significant issues already exist".

 

Given a report like this, surely any responsible government must heed the warnings and review the situation?  

 

1 minute ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

The government have caused it.

The constant start/re-assess/stop/re-assess/start circle has had a huge effect in escalating the cost. They are only cutting back on things now so they can claim they are saving money on the run up to the next election.

 

Who do you think chairs these committees? Somebody who wants a peerage or some other kind of honour, then they are given strong hints with what conclusion the government want it to have.

This Government signed off on a HS2, this Government did the work on the route and all the little extras that have added to the cost, this Government made it all about speed and not about capacity and this Government have been the ones cutting back on promises this Government made at the beginning.

 

What is worrying is that an infrastructure project to build a railway line would be so badly put together that it's delivery on parts that had not even begun had significant issues, they'd chosen the route, got the permissions and had even bought up the land and property.  So it was down to the civil engineering and Manchester is not like London when it comes to tunnelling so exactly what was so difficult to make it almost unfeasible?

[black and decker boy]

Crossrail was given a red rating but is now operating and I believe, exceeding passenger forecasts.

 

you cannot build NPR without HS2 or n me as divert adding costs & programme into NPR. NPR hadn’t yet got a route defined nor been laid before Parliament so remains at least 10 years from spades in the ground.

 

HS2 2a to Crewe is still 3 or 4 years away from the big ticket works so cancelling it saves pretty much zero this year or next.

 

HS2 2b to Manchester hasn’t yet got it’s act of Parliament consented so is still 6-8 years away from full construction on the ground (and cost) so cancelling it saves pretty much zero this year or next or the year after that.

 

HS2 build cost has been around £5bn per year to date. That will continue for the next 4 to 5 years as phase 1 gets built out & commissioned. 
 

the earning potential of a stub branch line from West London suburb into Birmingham is really shockingly limited. HS2 benefits and earnings exists from the whole not from a tiny part. 
 

our politicians (and HM Treasury) seem to not understand that and clearly think the population can be hoodwinked into thinking they’ve saved us £50/£60bn today to spend this year which simply isn’t true.

[jjb1970]

On who caused the mess, I suspect there's enough blame for everyone involved. For all the hopelessness of the government and politicians it's too easy to lay all the blame at their feet. I really wouldn't expect politicians to know much about transport (having met a couple of our shipping ministers they were actually intelligent and quick witted people but clueless about shipping) but I would expect the people at DfT to have some expertise (which again, if their maritime people are an indication is a forlorn hope). 

[Ron Ron Ron]

52 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Crossrail was given a red rating but is now operating and I believe, exceeding passenger forecasts……

 

In a short space in time, it has become Britain’s busiest railway line.

 

A perfect example how those red ratings  improve as the projects develop.

 

 

.

[Dunsignalling]

Chairman of Mace engineering was very scathing on R4 this morning. Reckoned if HS2 doesn't go to Euston, they might just as well bin the whole thing.

[Re6/6]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rishi-sunak-cuts-building-boss-mace-b2419392.html

 

The current governmental chaos beggars belief.

[APOLLO]

43 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

who caused the mess, 

 

Scapegoat Newt !!!

 

 

Brit15

[62613]

14 hours ago, adb968008 said:

You mean Central, Exchange slowly decayed until electrification and most of what remains rotted away, a little bit of platform still remains, visible in between waves of cars. Mayfield is in a similar state of rotting away.

No, it's not! When was the last time you were there?

[2750Papyrus]

44 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

In a short space in time, it has become Britain’s busiest railway line.

 

A perfect example how those red ratings  improve as the projects develop.

 

 

.

The traffic light system is a well-used technique in project management.  I was contract manager on several "red" rated defence projects, which were turned green.  Are there any lessons from Crossrail which can be transferred to HS2 to  change the red rating?

[62613]

4 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

The traffic light system is a well-used technique in project management.  I was contract manager on several "red" rated defence projects, which were turned green.  Are there any lessons from Crossrail which can be transferred to HS2 to  change the red rating?

One might be "Get it built in full, in scope, and we'll take it from there". At least build phase 1 in full, from Euston to Handsacre

Edited October 3, 2023 by 62613

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Russia and the United States are only 4km apart at their closest point.

 

Not much of a case for a High Speed Line there then.

[The Stationmaster]

7 minutes ago, 2750Papyrus said:

The traffic light system is a well-used technique in project management.  I was contract manager on several "red" rated defence projects, which were turned green.  Are there any lessons from Crossrail which can be transferred to HS2 to  change the red rating?

Maybe?  The thing about HS2 is that it has become not only gold plated but has also been lumbered with polished turds such as uunnecessary tunnels and ludicrous cut & cover ideas.  Crossrail seems to have some polished turds as well  including some rather cock-eyed ideas on frequency and capacity over-use outside the central core - but that is as nothing compared with HS2.

 

A line from former carriage sidings in West London to a spanking new station in Birmingham is very unlikely to be any sort of success with only 4 trains per hour in each direction and really does amount to a criminal waste of of money - even before you add the gold  plating and polished turds.

 

What politicians are doing of cours is thinking they are meeting a public, and ill-informed media, outcry by seemingly saving money, which they won't to any great extent, within the term of the current Parliament.  tTe money not saved won't be spent anywhere else because it doesn't exist anyway - it's borrowed.  And that is the real tragedy of typically British political short termism and vote chasing.

[Michael Hodgson]

13 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

What politicians are doing of cours is thinking they are meeting a public, and ill-informed media, outcry by seemingly saving money, which they won't to any great extent, within the term of the current Parliament.  tTe money not saved won't be spent anywhere else because it doesn't exist anyway - it's borrowed.  And that is the real tragedy of typically British political short termism and vote chasing.

But he's standing on a platform of long term thinking.

 

What he isn't gonna do is stand on a railway platform.

[2750Papyrus]

It used to be said that one shouldn't throw good money after bad. 

 

Money spent so far cannot be recovered.  If the spend to completion in existing or modified form makes economic sense, go for it. 

 

If it takes a while to evaluate possible changes before making this assessment, perhaps we need to be patient.