HS2

[icn]

18 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

The latest issue of Modern Railways has quite a few mentions of HS2.  In the Alan Williams column at the back mention is made of the procedure for abandoning phase 2A.. According to Dame Bernadette Kelly, the Permanent Secretary at the DfT, primary legislation will be needed to abandon the project. Also statutory procedures need to be followed to sell of land and lift protections. Hopefully these will take a long time. I suspect thst the Dame knows her stuff rather better than her political masters.

I'm not sure that requiring legislation is as much of an issue as some on this thread make out to be. One house is easily whipped, and the other one has to be careful about which issues it makes a stir about to avoid the eternal risk of being reformed - although I have to admit that this is just my idle speculation (proven by various law changes in the past however). I think your point about taking a long time is the key one: the more work that's needed and the longer it takes, the more likely priorities will change again / elections will change things / etc.

[rockershovel]

4 minutes ago, icn said:

I'm not sure that requiring legislation is as much of an issue as some on this thread make out to be. One house is easily whipped, and the other one has to be careful about which issues it makes a stir about to avoid the eternal risk of being reformed - although I have to admit that this is just my idle speculation (proven by various law changes in the past however). I think your point about taking a long time is the key one: the more work that's needed and the longer it takes, the more likely priorities will change again / elections will change things / etc.

Passing legislation isn't hard, provided the will is there. The Blair administration passed a quite staggering quantity of legislation. 

 

Look at some of the legislation that was waved through during the Covid hysteria! How fortunate that we happened to have a 350 page plus Bill just standing by, much of which remains on the Statute Rolls! 

 

The problem comes when either the subject matter is a problem - such as the Brexit period, when MPs in the Commons were trapped between the Whips and the electorate - or the legislation in question requires real work and competence, of which our present political class are largely bereft. 

 

It's all very well, passing legislation which is then left to find its own level by way of the courts or simply never implemented.

 

It's quite another thing when that legislation is a detailed work involving things the electorate more-or-less understand, like their homes and livelihoods. Like it or not, HS2 is pretty much propping up the construction industry right now. There will be a hideous mess in the courts over contracts for the supply of just about everything needed to build a railway, many of them held by companies like Siemens. No, the government - any government - has no option but to complete to Birminghsm, and no realistic prospect of going beyond. 

[jamie92208]

Another video from cue aster.  It shows the nearly complete new cutting between the pre cast factory and the Northern end of the Colne Valley viaduct. 

 

The cutting looks as if they are well on with the final landscaping.  It looks as if they are parking a lot of parapet sections on the tracked.  The big white area looks tbe some of the new chalk downland that is being created with the spoil from the tunnels. 

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

A better glimpse of work on the Burton Green "green tunnel".

Video from yesterday, Sunday 29th Oct.

(Note: there's no work activity on weekends along much of the route.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[jamie92208]

It's interesting how parts of that are going green on the cutting sides and starting to blend into the landscape. 

I presume that it is going to go over the railway line on a bridge towards the end of the video. 

 

Jamie

Edited October 30, 2023 by jamie92208

[Ron Ron Ron]

A couple of views of progress at the north portal of the Chilterns tunnels, at South Heath.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

4 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

.......I presume that it is going to go over the railway line on a bridge towards the end of the video. .....

 

Do you mean at 5:30 mins into the video, where the camera drone turns around at Berkswell Station (Balsall Common) and starts to go back?

If so, it looks like the piers are being built, for a viaduct to carry HS2 over the railway.

 

 

At Burton Green, the old railway bridge, spanned the disused railway cutting.

The cutting has been widened and the cut and cover ('green tunnel") is being constructed below the base of what was once the old railway alignment.

The old railway bridge is to be demolished to allow construction of the tunnel, hence the temporary diversion being built alongside.

 

When complete, the cutting will be partially filled in to create a green park and woodland area, along which a new stretch of the Kenilworth Green Way will be laid.

The road (Cromwell lane) will cross over the Green Way, on a new low level bridge.

Artists impressions below (taken fro the HS2 web site)....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited October 30, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[jamie92208]

Yes I did mean Balsall and thought there was the start of an over ridge. 

 

Jamie

[Northmoor]

Interesting article from the Rail Engineer; probably doesn't say much new but sums up the issues well.  The comment is amusing; from someone who knows all the answers, blames the supply industry for conning politicians and suggests that the industry needs to try harder at finding new capacity.  So he's a politician then: if you don't like the answer, keep asking the same question until you get one you like.

 

https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/opinion-new-approaches-needed-to-maximise-remains-of-hs2-project?utm_campaign=48623_DV_Railway_Industry_Update_October_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigital&dm_i=7L7Z,11IN,DZMTT,3UPA,1

[APOLLO]

14 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Interesting article from the Rail Engineer; probably doesn't say much new but sums up the issues well.  The comment is amusing; from someone who knows all the answers, blames the supply industry for conning politicians and suggests that the industry needs to try harder at finding new capacity.  So he's a politician then: if you don't like the answer, keep asking the same question until you get one you like.

 

https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/opinion-new-approaches-needed-to-maximise-remains-of-hs2-project?utm_campaign=48623_DV_Railway_Industry_Update_October_2023&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigital&dm_i=7L7Z,11IN,DZMTT,3UPA,1

 From the above

 

200m trains are too short on their own. The only dedicated HS2 stations will now be in London and Birmingham. Nowhere else can accommodate two 200m trains together, and the 200m trains are shorter than the 260m Pendolino trains that operate on the WCML.

 

European gauge trains will now not run on HS2. It was originally envisaged that half the trains operating on the full Y network would be dedicated HS2 trains built to European loading gauge. As this will not now happen, platform heights and offsets need to be reconsidered. The trains have a high floor and offered level boarding at HS2’s 1,150mm platform height. With only four HS2 stations, this becomes more problematic.

 

Trains do not tilt. They will be slower than the current Pendolino trains. This was not considered to be an issue when HS2 trains would have eventually saved 50 minutes on the journey between London and Preston.

 

'Nuff said.

 

Brit15

[Phil Parker]

We've got some serious thread drift going on here. I'm going to lock the thread, and carry out a clean up when I get time tomorrow. 

[Phil Parker]

Clean up carried out. There's still rubbish on here, but I've got the most recent stuff.

 

Please stay on topic for the future.

[jamie92208]

Welcome e back.  There have been a few videos posted over the last couple of days.  This one deals with the Thame Valley viaduct. 

 

Jamie

[monkeysarefun]

5 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Welcome e back.  There have been a few videos posted over the last couple of days.  This one deals with the Thame Valley viaduct. 

 

Jamie

 

Looking at that picture, why do they dress workers in hi-vis orange so they stand out on the worksite, then make everything else various shades of orange and red so they blend in again?

[Pacific231G]

On 24/10/2023 at 18:34, 62613 said:

The age of cheap energy came to an end between October and December 1973, when the price of crude oil increased from $3 per barrel to $11 per barrel. As you may recall, that and the OPEC embargo had a cataclysmic effect on the world economy

It was though the reason why the TGV ended up being electrically rather than gas turbine powered (as the first prototype was) and put an end to nonsense like the also gas turbine powered aerotrain (developed by the engineer who designed the world's most unreliable hovercraft)  The net result is that HS2 will be far more environmentally positive (less emissions and less CO2)  than it might have been if high speed trains had ended up powered by hydrocarbons.

[billbedford]

7 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

The net result is that HS2 will be far more environmentally positive (less emissions and less CO2)  than it might have been if high speed trains had ended up powered by hydrocarbons.

 

Only if the Government decides to build a fleet of new nuclear power stations, i.e. start a whole new major infrastructure project, just like HS2 was supposed to be. 

[adb968008]

^^^^^ thread drift.

[billbedford]

The best electric railway in the world is useless if there is nothing to power it. 

[APOLLO]

I live next to an electrically powered line, the West Coast Main Line 4 miles north of Golborne (HS2 content !!).

Quite a lot of the long heavy freight trains are diesel powered (Daventry - Mossend so no excuse).

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H31646/2023-11-06/detailed

 

Euston to Blackpool 10 car voyagers also. Electricity costs more than Diesel so I understand.

Serious question - What will the electricity demand / supply source be for the section being constructed ? And will it be GREEN ?

Bing Bong,  All HS2 trains are cancelled until the wind starts blowing !!!!

 

Brit15

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by APOLLO

[melmerby]

Just now, APOLLO said:

Euston to Blackpool 10 car voyagers

Those and the London - Birmingham - Scotland and North Wales coast ones are being replaced with 805s. (which don't tilt)

Several have already been out and about on test runs.

On the North Wales coast:

https://newsdesk.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/news/avanti-west-coasts-new-hitachi-train-makes-first-test-run-to-chester-and-north-wales

 

I wonder how how the HS2 service to North Wales will be provided?

A bi-mode version of the normal HS2 trains?

Are we looking at even more 800s but with a speed upgrade?😄

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Those and the London - Birmingham - Scotland and North Wales coast ones are being replaced with 805s. (which don't tilt)

Several have already been out and about on test runs.

On the North Wales coast:

https://newsdesk.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/news/avanti-west-coasts-new-hitachi-train-makes-first-test-run-to-chester-and-north-wales

 

I wonder how how the HS2 service to North Wales will be provided?

A bi-mode version of the normal HS2 trains?

Are we looking at even more 800s but with a speed upgrade?😄

 

Good question, most of the HS2 destinations mentioned would be electric all the way, but Holyhead is currently a fair distance away from the wires. Of course Rishi did announce electrifying it in his speech, but will that actually happen?

 

I'd be surprised if it was worth developing a bi-mode version unless there was more diesel destinations than just Holyhead to serve, but thinking of other traditional WCML destinations - Blackpool is electrified now. Shrewsbury? I'm not even sure Wolverhampton will get an HS2 service with Curzon Street being a terminal station. I can see an HS2 fleet being fairly captive to Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham - Euston.

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Those and the London - Birmingham - Scotland and North Wales coast ones are being replaced with 805s. (which don't tilt)

Several have already been out and about on test runs.

On the North Wales coast:

https://newsdesk.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/news/avanti-west-coasts-new-hitachi-train-makes-first-test-run-to-chester-and-north-wales

 

I wonder how how the HS2 service to North Wales will be provided?

A bi-mode version of the normal HS2 trains?

Are we looking at even more 800s but with a speed upgrade?😄

Electrification of the North Wales route is one of the Network North promises. So  the currently ordered classic compatibles for HS2 wilbe able to do that service.  I wil very deliberately llnot comment any further. 

 

Jamie

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, GordonC said:

I'm not even sure Wolverhampton will get an HS2 service

It won't.

Stations on the Rugby-Coventry-Birmingham-Wolverhampton-Stafford line aren't connected to HS2, so they will presumably end up with some sort of service somewhere between the fast Pendos and the slower 350s. currently doing the rounds.

 

EDIT

I don't think you can get to Shrewsbury easily from HS2 either.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

It was though the reason why the TGV ended up being electrically rather than gas turbine powered (as the first prototype was) and put an end to nonsense like the also gas turbine powered aerotrain (developed by the engineer who designed the world's most unreliable hovercraft)  The net result is that HS2 will be far more environmentally positive (less emissions and less CO2)  than it might have been if high speed trains had ended up powered by hydrocarbons.

Gas turbines have a articular problem in rail applications - apart from their inherently high fuel consumption - and that is that they are running at their peak of efficiency at a certain rotational speed.  So ina  speed/power demand variable situation, such as most railways, they will inevitably spend time running at less than maximum efficiency with consequent ill effects on fuel consumption (and possibly other technical issues as well?)

 

The reason the UP turbines had a reasonably long life was because they spent a lot of their running time on maximum power and very cheap fuel meant that inefficient fuel consumption at other times wasn't a problem.  But ultimately they ad to give way to diesel.  The RN tackled the efficiency issue in another way by combining gas turbines with diesel engines to create a 'sprint speed' when it was needed but a more efficient power source for normal running.  But the RN had first used a combined steam and gas turbine power solution )COSAG) back in the late 1950s/early '60s although that application on the R Tribal' Class frigates was based in many respects on getting the ship to sea before full boiler pressure was available for the steam turbine.

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

Good question, most of the HS2 destinations mentioned would be electric all the way, but Holyhead is currently a fair distance away from the wires. Of course Rishi did announce electrifying it in his speech, but will that actually happen?

 

I'd be surprised if it was worth developing a bi-mode version unless there was more diesel destinations than just Holyhead to serve, but thinking of other traditional WCML destinations - Blackpool is electrified now. Shrewsbury? I'm not even sure Wolverhampton will get an HS2 service with Curzon Street being a terminal station. I can see an HS2 fleet being fairly captive to Liverpool/Manchester/Birmingham - Euston.

 

3 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Electrification of the North Wales route is one of the Network North promises. So  the currently ordered classic compatibles for HS2 wilbe able to do that service.  I wil very deliberately llnot comment any further. 

 

Jamie

 

4 points.

 

1. Stop thinking of HS2 being the same sort of railway as the classic network. HS lines are a different type of beast.

It's also being built to the larger UIC GC gauge.

 

2. As originally conceived, i.e. the full route(s) to Manchester and Leeds, HS2 was to be a predominantly closed network, with its own captive train fleet.

The additional capacity made available on the HS2 line, was meant to allow some services to run off and beyond the end of HS2, to Scotland, Liverpool and a limited number of other destinations.

A second, "classic compatible' fleet was to ordered, to serve those "off-HS2" destinations, as well as being used as the initial operational HS2 fleet, until the whole route was completed.

 

3. All that has changed, with Phase 2A, Phase 2B and the eastern branch (which also came under Phase 2B, originally), being cancelled.

The curtailed route is now only going to be provided with a "classic compatible" train fleet.

These are the only trains that have been ordered and they are being designed ....and production is being planned, right now as we discuss this.

They are electric only.

 

4. The HS2 Phase 1 route is still being built to UIC GC, that allows for wider and taller trains to be used, than can be operated on the classic network.

The platform heights are designed to a hybrid standard, that can accommodate both UIC GC gauge trains and the "classic compatible" fleet, as well as meeting the latest standards for level boarding and accessibility.

Additionally, platform edge doors will be used at the intermediate stations ......now limited to only OOC and Birmingham Interchange.

That's before the signalling and route control issues are added to the equation.

In essence, trains designed to run on the classic network, e.g. Class 390 Pendolinos, or Class 805's, will not be compatible with HS2.

 

 

All this further emphasises the complete b*ggers muddle, the government, the DafT and the Treasury have created, by cancelling HS2 beyond Handsacre.

 

 

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Edited November 6, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron