“BEYOND DOVER”

[kitpw]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

The line from Rouen to Le Havre was financed by British capital

(Meanwhile, beyond Dover) ...and built by a UK contractor consortium:  "Work in France stemmed from the LSWR, with Locke as engineer to railways from Paris to Le Havre. The contracting consortium of Mackenzie and Brassey started on site in January 1841/2. Tite was asked to design the stations, possibly as late as 1842. William Mackenzie’s diary records the station buildings were barely finished when the line from Paris to Rouen was nearly ready to open."  ][My italics - more than one station - did any survive the war?]

 

[Northroader]

There’s a Wiki entry relating to the development of this line, if you want to give your French an outing:

 

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemin_de_fer_de_Paris_à_la_mer

 

It was constructed in three stages, Paris- Rouen, Rouen- Le Havre, and Dieppe and Fecamp branches. As to station architecture, it says the first part had stations done in a neoclassical style, and the the second part in “English Gothic / neoTudor”, so I really ought to have a snoop along the first section stations to see if anything’s left.

Other snippets are the tunnels were done to British loading gauge, and the LSWR were involved, the intention being to route cross channel services through Le Havre and Southampton, quite a roundabout route.

Theres also a nice bit on loco works and locos, which I hope to get on to.

[kitpw]

The Wiki article you reference includes a very handsome masonry viaduct (https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemin_de_fer_de_Paris_à_la_mer#/media/Fichier:Panoramique_Viaduc_Mirville.jpg) of 48 spans over 524m, completd in 1844: the chief engineer was Locke and the contractor Mackensie & Brassey. The very useful "Structurae" site has an entry for it at https://structurae.net/en/structures/mirville-viaduct. 

 

39 minutes ago, Northroader said:

the first part had stations done in a neoclassical style, and the the second part in “English Gothic / neoTudor”

This seems to be an accurate reflection of William Tite's architectural preferences - the original Rouen looks not unlike Nine Elms whereas the station you illustrated on the previous page definitely belongs in the second category although what that exactly is, I'm not sure!

 

 

[Compound2632]

One of the viaducts collapsed before the opening of the line; Brassey admitted he was at fault - easing the centering too soon or some such - and rebuilt it at his own expense. Was that Mirville?

 

Ah no - Barentin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barentin_Viaduct

[Northroader]

OUEST - BUDDICOM LOCOMOTIVES.

 

 

 

Hello, what’s happening here then? You already know all about the loco on the left, the “Boer”, and by now I hope you’ll recognise the one in the middle as the running chassis for a “Bicyclette”, waiting patiently for a superstructure to appear. That leaves the one on the right, a 2-2-2T which should spring into action once I’ve done the pickups and wired them in. It’s made with the leading and driving axles rigid in the frames, and the rear axle floating. Then I just arrange ballast weights to bring the centre of gravity just in front of the driving axle, and it should have enough traction for what’s wanted. You’ll see I’m progressing the superstructure at the same time on this one, the outside cylinders and clearances round the drivers causing a more involved approach. The outside frames are just in front for the photo, strictly they’re what I should be working on this morning, only it’s just too b—— hot in the loft today, so I’m down in the cool tapping on the pad instead.

In England this sort of engine was known as a “Crewe” or “Allen” type, in France a “Buddicom” type. He was a person with a fascinating story, so required reading for the class this morning is his autobiography:

https://www.icevirtuallibrary.com/doi/pdf/10.1680/imotp.1888.20988

The main 2-2-2 series built at Sotteville to his designs were 101-138 built 1843-4, followed by larger versions 141-50 and 161-176 built up to 1858. They were superseded by fourcoupled engines, but from 1860-5 25 of the initial series were rebuilt as tank engines, and these kept running into the 1900s, which is what my model represents, with an extended rear end for the bunker and water tank. So, photos and a drawing:

 

The Paris Orleans railway started operations with imported engines from English manufacturers, but also had Buddicom types built for them, as did the Nord:

 

Theres a sister of these locos in York Railway Museum, “Columbine”

 

 

One of the OUEST Buddicoms has survived, Sotteville works deciding it needed to be preserved, and rebuilding it back to a tender engine. It gained its old name “St.Pierre”,and you can find it in the Cite du Train at Mulhouse. With the history it had, the French Railway authorities decided it should come over for the Festival of Britain in 1951, and the Southern folks had great fun steaming it up at Bricklayers Arms, before it went on show at the South Bank, where I saw it as an impressionable teenager.

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Northroader

[TT-Pete]

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

, in France a “Buddicom” type. He was a person with a fascinating story, so required reading for the class this morning is his autobiography:

https://www.icevirtuallibrary.com/doi/pdf/10.1680/imotp.1888.2098

 

I don't mind being set reading to do, but it ended up deviating into the French Revolution of 1848, Louis Phillipe I and Claremont House, Surrey. (Good job that Wikipedia is not pay per click)

 

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

One of the OUEST Buddicoms has survived, Sotteville works deciding it needed to be preserved, and rebuilding it back to a tender engine. It gained its old name “L’Aigle”, and you can find it in the Cite du Train at Mulhouse. With the history it had, the French Railway authorities decided it should come over for the Festival of Britain in 1951, and the Southern folks had great fun steaming it up, before it went on show at the South Bank, where I saw it as an impressionable teenager.

 

This one?

 

 

(Taken from my Cite du train thread):

 

 

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

Theres a sister of these locos in York Railway Museum, “Columbine”

 

I'm sure I remember her in the old Kensington Science museum display? (Is that a bicycle balanced on her dome?!)

 

[Northroader]

Oh dear, I am a silly girl, aren’t I? I’ve gone and mixed up my French single drivers. “L’Aigle” was a longboiler type built for a EST constituent, and the Buddicom I was rabbiting on about was called “St. Pierre”, the nameplate being in an unusual place. Here’s the pair of them together, I suppose the distinguishing features  are single inside frame and all the wheels in front of the firebox on the one, and a longer wheelbase beyond the firebox and a stronger double framing arrangement on the other.

 

Heres the arrangement for the Buddicom framing, quite a lot of riveting involved:

 

As to the bike on Columbine....????

[Northroader]

ITALIAN RAILWAYS. PAINTINGS AND ABANDONED LINES.

 

From time to time, Italian Railways get a look in on this thread, the bit I’ve seen of Italy I enjoy the warmth, the colour, the antiquity, and the scran isn’t bad, either.

Page 8 of this thread there were British built single drivers running in Italy, with a useful link added, coupled with a link to a thread for “Plastico Di Castello” a lovely layout, and the builder gives useful methods on how to model hilltowns, vineyards, and olive groves, the sort of things a British Modeller doesn’t normally consider.

Page 13 you have a link into the National Railway Drawing Archive, and I’ve stitched together enough drawings lifted out of it for a small old goods train as a sample.

Page 14 as a result of discussing a TV programme there’s a look at the most common Italian 0-6-0 loco. from the 19th century. (Class 215)

Now we’re at Page 22, and for inspiration (and colour) we can see the artwork of Francesco Dall’Armi, Italy’s answer to C.Hamilton Ellis. For me there’s some nice old 1900 era scenes, but you’ve also got a Dean Goods, a Kirtley Goods, and a Stanier 8F in unfamiliar surroundings.

http://www.stagniweb.it/foto6.asp?Tipo=index&File=fdaquadr&Inizio=1&Righe=100&Col=3

Another link, this time to “Ferrovia Abbondonate”, which lists all the railway lines which have been abandoned, far too many I fear, just like in Britain. Clicking on each one gives the dates, a map with connections and stations, and maybe a few pictures, which can give an idea of the setting, buildings, and civil engineering. These are mainly recent colour photos, some quite “arty”, but a plod through and you could happen on the site you like, clear away the undergrowth, lay the main line and a couple of sidings, put a roof back on the station, and reopen for service.

https://www.ferrovieabbandonate.it

 

 

“ANDATECI, AMICI MIEI !”

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Northroader said:

a Dean Goods

 

Erano di tipica concezione British, con 3 assi accoppiati e cilindri interni al telaio.

 

Omnibus piemontese. Something of an Irish flavour - an ancient 0-4-2 complete with its antique cupboard doors to the smokebox, but reinvigorated with a Belpaire boiler.

 

And yes, spotted the Kirtley goods!

[Northroader]

“ITALIAN RAILWAYS” - HOMEPAGE.

 

Incidentally, in putting the link in for the artists pictures, I unwittingly bypassed the homepage for that site. There’s some very good sections besides the paintings. Try the photo gallery, for instance, some very lush railways in the landscape pictures.

http://www.stagniweb.it/index.htm

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Northroader

[Northroader]

ALESSANDRO ALBE’ ALBUM COLLECTION. PRE 1900 AND 1950s CONTINENTAL RAILWAYS.

 

Now here’s another interesting link, it turns out that an Italian gentleman, Signor Alessandro Albe’, has a good collection of albums, which he has placed on Flickr to view.

First to recap on Italian Railway history, following the creation of the unified republic in 1861, the railways were put into three companies from 1865. The Upper Italian Railway S.F.A.I. had the Northern lines, Roman Railways the central band across the country, and Calabria - Sicilian railways from Naples south. A fourth company, Southern railways, S.F.M., appeared building a line down the eastern coast south from Bologna. The three companies all went bankrupt, the Calabrian Sicily in1868, the others in the 1870s, only the SFM staying in the black. In 1885, the railways were regrouped Into two systems running North South, divided by the Appenines, the Rete Mediterranea, RM, on the west side, and the Rete Adriatica, RA, on the east side, with the railways on Sicily going to a third company. The previous assets of the old companies were shared out  with the RM and the RA. These were given twenty year concessions to operate the lines, but had to give up the struggle financially, getting into a rundown state, so that the state operated Ferrovie Della Stato, FS, was created to run the whole lot in 1905.

So the albums of particular interest:

S.F.A.I. Album of locomotives, 1887, which includes any that went before FS was formed, so extra to Kalla Bishops book.

RM carriage types 1887, diagrams, fleet numbers.

RM appendix #2 1898. extra additions to the loco, c & w fleets.

I would seriously suggest that there’s enough information in the links I’ve now given to make a decent little model of the Italian scene for 1900 and earlier.

The other vintage item is SPAP (Greece) carriage diagrams for 1915.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcoalbe/albums/with/72157629805669682

 

 

Now the index for this link goes to four pages, what else is there? The bulk is albums which would date into the 1950/60 era, with a lot of manufacturers catalogues. The ones of particular interest are what appear to be official railway photographs, high definition black and white. There’s DSB (Denmark) NS (Netherlands) SJ (Sweden) and VJ (Finland) mainly traction and rolling stock. The Danish ones include clear photos of wagons built over fifty years before, which I doubt have changed very much. One for you, Stephen, is in the locomotive manufacturers pictures, a total ragbag, but with a train of p.o.wagons somewhere North of Swansea, which I gather came from the Zürich university site. I’d have posted it on your site if I had the nous to get pictures off Flickr. That particular site has a load of British steam, pregroup, big four, and export, stuff includes ancient L&Y and NSR.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

Thanks for that, quite a variety of subjects, scenes and locations in those albums!

 

I liked the "TCI old pictures" album, several subjects in there of interest to me including the Panama canal. Also a potential layout subject I hadn't heard of before, an "archaeological railway". 

 

1924, Tripolitania, archaeological service decauville railway. by Alessandro Albe', on Flickr

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Thanks for that, quite a variety of subjects, scenes and locations in those albums!

 

I liked the "TCI old pictures" album, several subjects in there of interest to me including the Panama canal. Also a potential layout subject I hadn't heard of before, an "archaeological railway". 

 

Haven't you seen: 

 

 

 

[Northroader]

Thanks, Stephen, I’ve enjoyed Franckcombes previous layouts, Sidi whatever, and Lucky Luke, I hadn’t picked this one up. There’s always a nice streak of humour /eccentricity running through them.

 

we did get as far as Egypt a bit ago, so here’s some “Pharoahonic” (?!) stations to go with the GWR styled locos featured then, plus nice “modern” stations:

 

https://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/32/138/152456/Folk/Photo-Heritage/Train-of-thoughts.aspx

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Haven't you seen: 

 

 

 

 

I hadn't seen that either, thanks Stephen. It never fails: Somewhere, someone's done it!

 

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

Thanks, Stephen, I’ve enjoyed Franckcombes previous layouts, Sidi whatever, and Lucky Luke, I hadn’t picked this one up. There’s always a nice streak of humour /eccentricity running through them.

 

we did get as far as Egypt a bit ago, so here’s some “Pharoahonic” (?!) stations to go with the GWR styled locos featured then, plus nice “modern” stations:

 

https://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/32/138/152456/Folk/Photo-Heritage/Train-of-thoughts.aspx

 

 

 

Well that's, um, imposing.  

[Northroader]

Good news, I’ve been slowly plodding through trying to reinstate the pictures lost in my posts after things went pear shaped in March this year. This takes the wreckage back for a year to April 2021, about half way down page 11. I gather that before then, things should slowly reappear, and a few have reappeared in a very haphazard manner, although most of page 10 seems now to be back, with some help. I’ll have to watch how this progresses and try to slip some more in if I can.

To try and save memory space on my pad, I don’t save the pictures long term once they’re posted, so I’ve had to retake them or find them again on the web, and in one or two cases, things have since moved on.

While I was at it, I couldn’t resist adding extra pictures or information. Should you amend old posts in a thread, or is that totally unethical? I’ve tried to make it more handier for reference, which is why I’ve been adding bold print headers to highlight where a good link is.

[Northroader]

Oh dear, eighteen hours on from me making that post, and we get an announcement:

Sooo, start working on pages one to nine now, ho hum...

[5944]

On 26/08/2022 at 19:23, Northroader said:

ALESSANDRO ALBE’ ALBUM COLLECTION. PRE 1900 AND 1950s CONTINENTAL RAILWAYS.

 

Now here’s another interesting link, it turns out that an Italian gentleman, Signor Alessandro Albe’, has a good collection of albums, which he has placed on Flickr to view.

First to recap on Italian Railway history, following the creation of the unified republic in 1861, the railways were put into three companies from 1865. The Upper Italian Railway S.F.A.I. had the Northern lines, Roman Railways the central band across the country, and Calabria - Sicilian railways from Naples south. A fourth company, Southern railways, S.F.M., appeared building a line down the eastern coast south from Bologna. The three companies all went bankrupt, the Calabrian Sicily in1868, the others in the 1870s, only the SFM staying in the black. In 1885, the railways were regrouped Into two systems running North South, divided by the Appenines, the Rete Mediterranea, RM, on the west side, and the Rete Adriatica, RA, on the east side, with the railways on Sicily going to a third company. The previous assets of the old companies were shared out  with the RM and the RA. These were given twenty year concessions to operate the lines, but had to give up the struggle financially, getting into a rundown state, so that the state operated Ferrovie Della Stato, FS, was created to run the whole lot in 1905.

So the albums of particular interest:

S.F.A.I. Album of locomotives, 1887, which includes any that went before FS was formed, so extra to Kalla Bishops book.

RM carriage types 1887, diagrams, fleet numbers.

RM appendix #2 1898. extra additions to the loco, c & w fleets.

I would seriously suggest that there’s enough information in the links I’ve now given to make a decent little model of the Italian scene for 1900 and earlier.

The other vintage item is SPAP (Greece) carriage diagrams for 1915.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcoalbe/albums/with/72157629805669682

 

 

Now the index for this link goes to four pages, what else is there? The bulk is albums which would date into the 1950/60 era, with a lot of manufacturers catalogues. The ones of particular interest are what appear to be official railway photographs, high definition black and white. There’s DSB (Denmark) NS (Netherlands) SJ (Sweden) and VJ (Finland) mainly traction and rolling stock. The Danish ones include clear photos of wagons built over fifty years before, which I doubt have changed very much. One for you, Stephen, is in the locomotive manufacturers pictures, a total ragbag, but with a train of p.o.wagons somewhere North of Swansea, which I gather came from the Zürich university site. I’d have posted it on your site if I had the nous to get pictures off Flickr. That particular site has a load of British steam, pregroup, big four, and export, stuff includes ancient L&Y and NSR.

I'm glad to see someone else has discovered Alessandro's excellent archive. Sadly he passed away a couple of years ago so no more updates. But there's so much stuff on there it takes ages to wade through it all. 

[burgundy]

6 hours ago, 5944 said:

I'm glad to see someone else has discovered Alessandro's excellent archive. Sadly he passed away a couple of years ago so no more updates. But there's so much stuff on there it takes ages to wade through it all. 

Does that mean that it is not being maintained and may therefore collapse or be closed at some point?

Best wishes 

Eric 

[5944]

1 hour ago, burgundy said:

Does that mean that it is not being maintained and may therefore collapse or be closed at some point?

Best wishes 

Eric 

Sadly yes, depending what Flickr decide to do with legacy accounts. They were planning to restrict free users to 1000 photos and deleting any photos that exceeded that limit, but I think that has been scrubbed now. 

[Johann Marsbar]

11 hours ago, 5944 said:

Sadly yes, depending what Flickr decide to do with legacy accounts. They were planning to restrict free users to 1000 photos and deleting any photos that exceeded that limit, but I think that has been scrubbed now. 

 

I've just come off being on a Flickr Pro account and I keep being sent messages that "you photos are at risk of deletion...."  and that the limit is 1000 images on free accounts, so that still appears to be the case.  There are currently 3500 of my photos on there, but no sign of anything being deleted so far.....

[Northroader]

It is of concern that there are some really informative sites by individuals, which should be retained for posterity, such as Alessandro’s Album collection, Erik Pedersen’s Danish site, or Clive Lamming’s French pages, which could be lost. The Belgian collection of Vandenberghen looks to be on safer ground, as it has the national railway museum backing. Suppose this would be the solution?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Northroader

[burgundy]

For those who like curious connections.

Donetsk, Ukraine has been in the news for all the wrong reasons since 2014.

The original name for the town of Donetsk before the Russian revolution was Yuzivka, named after John Hughes (transliterating his name).

John Hughes founded the steelworks in Donetsk in 1869 and operated coal mines in the region, bringing with him workers from South Wales. He also invested in the Konstantinovskaya railway to improve communication in the area.

Hughes was from Merthyr Tydfil and his family owned an ironworks there. His interest in Russia was a consequence of the economic depression in the UK, precipitated by the collapse of Overend, Gurney and Co and subsequent banking crash of 1866.

One of the vehicles for investment in industrialisation of the area was the Novorossiysk society, in which one of the investors was Daniel Gooch.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Northroader]

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Northroader

[burgundy]

11 hours ago, Northroader said:

 

Alderney?

Best wishes 

Eric