“BEYOND DOVER”

[pete_mcfarlane]

Can you stop this, before I add any more railway books to my 'to read' pile? Especially as French books take twice as long to read, due to my dodgy GCSE French.

 

Disappointly my French teachers taught us useless things, like how to change money (never done that, just stuck my card in the machine and out popped Francs or more recently Euros), and never once explained what a chaudière or surchauffeur was. 

[ianathompson]

5 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Disappointly my French teachers taught us useless things,

 

When I took my O level, way back in the early seventies, we studied a new course.

There was a much greater emphasis upon speaking French rather than just reading or writing it.

We had to give a five minute talk upon a chosen subject picked from a list of around half a dozen subjects.

The axtual topic was drawn at random to give a choice of one from two, or something like that.

I suspect that the thing was rigged because, surprise, surprise I drew 'Transport'.

 

The master was astute enough to ask a question about French railway signalling systems amd just let me go!

Good look to the (non technical examiner) bloke who found out that "rappel de relantissment" was the French equivalent of a "splitting distant".

Or that the flashing green "pre-annonce" (no acute accents available) was used where signal sections were short.

I am convinced that I passed because of this.

 

A few years later, out in France on a University Geography degree field trip, I was one of the few uindergrads that could speak any French at all.

I could tell plenty of tales about that but this is not really the place!

Suffice to say that most of my mates' vocabulary only stretched as far as "deux pressions" even when they left.

 

Ian T

[Northroader]

Me, I look at the pictures.

[Northroader]

kkStB GOODS VAN

 

Here’s the next bit of rolling stock to appear, an Austrian goods van. This has to come with a caveat, in that I didn’t really have a firm source of information for this, just a few distant photos, and some pictures of models in the Roco catalogue. The main basis was a drawing of a roughly similar German van, so I can’t claim 100% accuracy.

 

The basis of the model is an ETS Czech open goods with a tinplate body for the pre WW2 era, so the top was unscrewed and ditched, as well as the couplers. This left the chassis “tray”, and this was hacksawed across the middle to take about 8mm out. The axleguard units had been removed, and new holes drilled into the trays for them, at the new wheelbase spacing. Then they were rescrewed back on, through the trays into a block of 2”x1” deal inside the body, which gave some weight and supported the chassis structure. A rectangle of .060” plastikard was sandwiched between the tray and the block, forming the floor of the van body. Sides and ends of the same material were cemented on, with a partition inside for support, and an “ceiling” to support the sides, ends, and roof. The body gets an overlay of Evergreen styrene sheet, 4100 V-groove, .100” spacing, .040” thickness. I feel this is about right, comparing the plank spacing on the Roco model, the number of planks came in the same. There are apertures in each side, I think they have shutters inside, so I did one side blanked off, and one side open. The fiddly bit is the grilles, soldered up form .020” brass rod. Add a gently curved roof, with battens. There’s some brass strips behind the buffer beams, and across the middle, supporting coupling hooks, handrails and steps. It was painted Humbrol Sea Grey, and that’s about it

 

They came with or without the brake platform, the chassis and roof being that bit shorter, and MAV, the Hungarian State, did very similar vans, in green. So once you’d got past Lindau, this was the van to see, right from Galicia, to Bosnia Hercegovina. Now all I need are some more chassis bits and plastikard.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Northroader

[Northroader]

 

TREES.

 

‘Tis the season to be jolly, and put up a tree... so, going back a page, I put in a picture of a Czech station with a row of trees behind, and commented that it was an attractive feature. TT-Pete kindly seconded the motion, and so I started looking at the job.  I have dabbled with trees in the past, and realise I’m no Iliffe Stokes. There’s plenty of advice on winding up strands of flex to make trees, but I don’t really get on with this method. A few years back, granddaughter No. 1 would turn up bright eyed and bushy tailed, very keen to do some scenic work on Granddad’s Railway, and I got a tree making kit. Problem was the model shop recommended a tube of glue which was like grease, and you’ve never seen the pickle she got into, little crumbs of green foam everywhere. These days she’s become a sophisticated teenager, you know, on a visit now she disappears into the spare room, flops on a bed, and conducts interminable texts on her phone pad to all her pals.

 Tripping round model shows, there are manufacturers who make exquisite completed trees, but for me  they are quite expensive, so in the meantime the best way I’ve found is using the “Woodland Scenics” materials with a plastic armature, trunk and branches, and sticking pieces of foam mixed with hair(?j on to it. The armatures are small, being HO scale jobs, and here’s one I did for O scale by splicing two armatures together, on the left of the picture 9 1/4”, 235mm high. The foliage is a mixture of two packs, to attempt to get an autumn look.

The tree on the right is one I’ve bought for the current job. ready made by Heki, a German scenic manufacturer. They’re intended for 00/H0 use, but are 7 3/4”, 200mm, high, and I suppose a large 00 tree can become a small 0 tree quite simply?  I’ve got a pack of four for twenty notes, which to me is reasonable, and they took a month to deliver, presumably done in batches? They’re made with a chocolate brown plastic armature, and a sort of synthetic foam mesh stuck over, so definitely one for inspection from not less than two feet away, but they do look quite convincing, with good coverage. The adhesive and material requires the tree to be handled very lightly, small pieces can fall off without much encouragement. The trunk ends with a spigot at the bottom, which plugs into an extension with a circular base. I’m afraid this looks very “Toy- Towny”, so I’ve drilled through the base, and up through the spigot into the trunk, and inserted a length of .060 “ brass rod, which projects down over an inch to plug into a hole drilled in the baseboard, then trimmed the circular base off, and go round the join with some Milliput. The other task is to lose the brown plastic trunk, various shades of grey and green paint being dappled over. So there you are, first a shot of the new avenue on its own, then with a couple of wagons in front for scale effect. You may spot a light pencil line on the backscene paper, which marks the horizon, but with the trees now in place I think I may have to drop this down an inch or so. Anyway, I prefer the appearance to having a building behind, and the good thing about trees is they are international, not minding whether they’re in France, Austria, or somewhere else.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

I forget: is this layout still multi-purpose? Can you switch in a bank of olive trees for Italy or Spain? Or vines for the south of France? 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

I think the thing is be to be guided where the frost stops as you go South, trees like this would be fit in a treat anywhere North,  but then in Southern Europe you could get Olives, Citrus trees, and the like, and deciduous trees just thin out. For now I’m staying with the frosty bits.

[Northroader]

AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN (SERBIAN) SIGNALLING.

 

Here’s a link to a good film I’ve just happened on, shewing train operation in Serbia, taken recently. The trains are all modern, but all the signalling equipment looks as if it dates back a long time, probably pre WW1. It’s a good look at a double wire system in operation, and the signals all match with Austro-Hungarian types. Double track has right hand running, so the signal arms point to the right of the posts, which looks confusing to British eyes.

I like the way the film has been made, a very calm progression, with nice steady close ups of the gear, a good sense of “setting”, and a frisky dog for company, most enjoyable and informative.

 

[ianathompson]

20 hours ago, Northroader said:

Here’s a link to a good film I’ve just happened on, shewing train operation in Serbia, taken recently.

 

Thanks for that.

 I really enjoyed it, especially the point movement and locking section.

I suspect that the film only tells half the story of train  working though.

The man featured would seem to only be operating the signals at one end of the station.

 

The leverframe names have all beeen translated into Serbian, of course, but the pause button and Google translate shows that they are the equivalent of their German forbears.

The Cyrillic script signs were interesting.

I understand that Croatia uses the Roman alphabet and Serbian uses the Cyrillic alphabet for the same language, although I await correction on that! (Edit: changed in accordance with response below. Thanks!

 

What appears to be the main panel (the green one) is in the station building and this is probably where trains are offered and accepted.

The panel in the little hut would seem to be consistent with Bahnhofsblock, in that it seems to be a subsidiary panel releasing slots to the main panel.

 

The system, as I understand it, (which is not thoroughly, so I wait to be corrected by one more knowlegeable) is akin to that used on the Highland Railway.

There the block instruments were in the station building, under the control of the stationmaster, and the entry frames at each end of the station were worked by 'pointsmen'.

 

I was intrigued to see the Austrian/German handsignal for "stop" in use as the train had entered the loop and the holding of the flag in the upright position seems to be similar to the old Zp9 signal in Germany which basically means "depart".

I was not familiar with what appears to be the "take siding" (?) handsignal, or is it "slow down"?

Tecnically speaking the home signal's two arm aspect is not a route indicator, it is a speed adviser, as in "slow down".

 

These aspects allowed drivers without route knowledge to work over an unfamiliar section of line.

The system simply advised the driver of the speed to travel.

I suspect that this system had roots in the militaristic Prussian culture of 19th century Germany. 

Drivers would then be able to drive over conquered territory, if necessary, without having to know where they were going.

 

Ian T

Edited December 18, 2022 by ianathompson
inaccuracy

[burgundy]

3 hours ago, ianathompson said:

 

Thanks for that.

I understand that Serbian uses the Roman alphabet and Croatian uses the Cyrillic alphabet for the same language, although I await correction on that.

 

Ian T

I think you will find that it is the other way round.

Croatia, on the coast, traditionally looked westwards, was Catholic and uses Latín script. Serbia is mainly Orthodox and uses Cyrillic.

Best wishes

Eric

Edited December 18, 2022 by burgundy
spelling

[Andy Hayter]

There are also some small differences in vocabulary - although I suspect we are more in the realms of dialect than different languages.  We would not for example differentiate between the use of Baby, Babby, Bairn and so on beyond describing it as dialect differences.  

[Northroader]

GERMAN MANUAL BLOCK WORKING.

 

I got the impression the block working was done by holding down a key and winding a small telephone type generator on the panel behind the levers in the cabin in use. Certainly there’s no mucking about with single line tokens like in Britain, even though it’s being used for passenger trains. There’s a panel in the station building with similar instruments, the function duplicating those in the cabin? There’s some sort of sliding selector on the desktop of the panel which looks as if the running roads could be picked out, was this some form of power signalling that’s fallen out of use? In the corner of the station office there’s a hat with a red top hanging up. Normally this indicates to the train crew that the person wearing it is the one authorised to give permission to the train to proceed. (White top in France) but the trains are passing through and no ones wearing it. Has the station been downgraded and there’s no stationmaster?

The lever frame is interesting, the main point looks as if it has a facing point lock? What’s the lever at the end painted yellow do? Some of the levers stay in a “pulled” position all through the film, and aren’t returned. It looks as if some of the stop signals return to danger as the train passes, treadle operated? It doesn’t look as if the poor guy has any heating or cooking facilities.

 

edit: sniffing around, the gubbins in use has a lot of similarities to this equipment:

http://www.joernpachl.de/German_principles.htm#manual block

see “manual block working” section.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Northroader

[ianathompson]

I am making this post in an attempt to clear up some of the points raised by my response to the video.

Although the video shows a Serbian box the hardware is of German origin, or more specifically, the signals are the Austrian type.

 

As I noted in the last post I am most definitely not an expert in German block systems.

I do have a couple of German language books covering this subject, however, and have watched various videos and used simulations ,on the subject across the years.

 

 Unfortunately I don’t speak or read German very well (selbslernst as they say).

I put one relevant section of my books into Google translate and then translated the gobbledegook that came out.

The AFK (my model railway) nominally uses the German system although I do not doubt that there are a number of errors in the operating procedures.

These are actually specified in the AFK Rule Book in an attempt to prevent too many liberties being taken, but unsurprisingly this has never been published on my website.

 

One final point, before we start out.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

The German systems, like their British counterparts, used alternative methods and hardware to operate their (pre-Grouping) systems.

There are at least three mechanical point operating systems, two major alternatives for signal levers, and the Bavarian signals themselves are at variance with other systems.

I don’t doubt that there are many other subtle variations, particularly in regard to block instruments.

 

The German block system differed from the British system.

The nearest equivalent that I am aware of in a British context was the system used by the Highland Railway.

This differed from the British norm because in effect the stationmaster was in control of the block section between him and the adjacent station (Streckenblock in German).

A similar system was used by the Great North of Scotland and also, I suspect, given the accident at Abermule, the Cambrian.

All three lines were characterised by long station loops on single track main lines which called for modifications to the standard British arrangement.

This was the standard system on German railways.

 

A larger German station usually had at least one subsidiary points cabin which controlled arrivals and departures from one end of the station.

On the Highland the block instruments were in the centrally located station building and there was a points cabin at either end of the long loop.

The pointsman worked the two cabins as directed by the station master (and was usually provided with a bike to shuttle between the two!)

I am not sure whether there were necessarily two cabins on the German system because one end of the station could possibly be worked from the station building if it was sited at that end of the loop.

 

Under the Bahnhofsblock system the stationmaster, for want of a better term, worked the block instruments and gave releases for the arrival or departure signals to the pointscabin.

This could be done mechanically over short distances but DC or AC systems were used over longer ones.

The pointsman could not therefore authorise any movement unless a slot was released by the stationmaster.

 

German block instruments were very different from British block instruments.

The main block instrument at Sebesic is shown at 10.12.

They were extremely robust metal cabinets mechanically interlocked with the points and signals.

Amongst the differences from British practice was the requirement to select a road (such as main or loop) for the arriving train.

This effectively checked the point positions before releasing the signals and the block instrument.

I suspect that these are the levers at either end of the brass station layout diagram, although I have not seen this particular arrangement before.

It was more normal to have levers moving vertically under the block cabinet.

 

Rather than showing the state of the line with a pointer on a dial (which is what the British system generally boiled down to) the German block section instruments used “flags”.

These were red and white discs visible through an aperture in the block instrument case.

The operator depressed the lever above the flag (which effectively was a push to make switch) and wound the handle which activated a magneto to give low voltage current to change the flag.

This simultaneously changed the flag in the instrument at the other end of the section.

To run a train between one station and another it was necessary to manipulate three such flags.

(Some earlier systems needed seven flags.)

The system was interlocked with the starter signal and the departure signal at the other end of the section to prevent two trains getting onto the line together.

The stationmaster could now reverse the lever to clear the signal if he had direct control or alternatively to give the release to the points cabin operator.

This would usually be accompanied by an audible warning from the buzzer.

 

The points cabin contains an instrument that appears similar to the main instrument.

It is a Bahnhofsblock instrument for internal communication within the station.

It CANNOT act as the Streckensblock instrument because it has no communication with the next station.

If you watch the sequence where the passenger train is accepted (17.45) the pointsman consults the timetable and sets up the road for the next train before it is coming.

(German working timetables usually specify which road a train will take.)

The buzzer sounds informing the pointsman that a train has been accepted (from Sombora) and that he needs to clear the signals.

A slot on the points and the signals will have been released at the same time.

 

The pointsman winds the magneto handle to confirm that the road is set (PUT VOZJNE).

I suspect that this repeats this information to the main panel by a flag and it also releases the signals.

The “road set” flag goes from green (free) to white, (locked?) and I suspect that the flags in the signals flip to “released” but we do not see this.

He then pulls the lever which clears the home signal, ULAZNL (entrance).

Significantly he only has two other flags because he is restricted to operating one end of the layout.

One of these reads ILZAZNI (exit) which is the section signal towards Sombora.

 

Having obtained the PUT VOZJNE flag, the locking for the signal lever is released and the pointsman pulls it, putting the signal to clear.

There is a complication here because a train taking the loop will see two arms (langsam or slow) whereas one taking the straight loop will see a single arm (fahrt frei or clear).

With a winding handle, NOT used here, the handle was given an extra turn for the more restrictive aspect.

The pointsman tries to pull the lever 2 at around 4.30 but finds it locked.

He flips a little latch, which as I recall engages  the second arm, and pulls lever into the clear position.

It is also noticeable that there are two winding drums on this lever, for the extra arm, but that there is only one on the other levers.

 

Another little latch seems to provide the locking for the barriers.

He cannot move the signal lever until this is flicked across and he has difficulty at one point getting this release.

I suspect that the little latch is operating a bar within the instrument case to provide this locking.

As in a British box the gate release will only be obtained by placing the signal to danger.

 

Once the train has passed he ‘winds out’ the fourth flag showing RAZRENJE which translates as “dismissal”.

This clears off the “road set” window allowing him to deal with another train.

 

With regards to the yellow wheel, I have no idea what this does.

Yellow is not used for distant signals in German frames.

Most distant signals appear to be worked from the same lever as the home signal.

It is noticeable that there are no colours on the levers at Sebesic presumably reflecting their age.

 

Hope some of these ramblings are of interest.

 

Ian T

[Northroader]

Thanks for the explanation, Ian, it pulls together what’s happening very nicely. It strikes me that the missing person for the redtop hat is actually the man doing the camerawork? I thought I’d check out where Sebesic is, using an old map of the Central Hungarian area:

 

Up to 1920, it was in Hungary, and so originally part of the MAV system, and when Jugoslavia was created it was in the area transferred over. There’s a big junction just to the east, now Subotica, then Szabadka, which is on the main Budapest - Belgrade mainline., so the line through Sebesic splits into several tracks to ease congestion approaching the junction. The line the other direction goes on to Sombora, then Zambor, and on west to Zagreb, and also Fiume, which I fancy is where most of the freight traffic is for.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Northroader

[burgundy]

Thank you. I was trying to figure this out, as the main part of Serbia had gone from being part of the Ottoman Empire to an independent kingdom after 1878. I had not realised that Serbia had gained a chunk of former Hungary at the same time that Transylvania went to Romania after WW1.

Best wishes

Eric

[Northroader]

SEBESIC COUNTRY STATION.    MAV - JZ.

 

Just kicking around some ideas for a layout formed on this place, as you do. Really having the full monty, with long loops, and a points cabin at each end, and a station building in the middle, would make it a bit too long. I think just having half a station, and then compressed some more, would work, so I sketched this out:

it’s the piece we’ve been looking at in the video, and I’ve taken the liberty of moving the pointsmans hut to the other side of the tracks, so the buildings are all tucked behind. The loop tracks are long enough to take a short train, and end in short cassettes, traverser, or some such. The trains then arrive from the fiddle yard on the left, run round in the station, and back whence they came, not very high paced action, but as the video shows, do you really want that?

The Puszta, the great Plain, comes this far south, so the backscene is a low flat horizon, rather featureless landscape, and a big sky, so quite friendly to do. The flatness means that the tracks disappear behind some small trees at each end, rather than under bridges and tunnels. The station building is a MAV standard type IV design for small country stations, here’s a couple of examples, (in the video I noticed it had storm doors fitted, I reckon if you went out there right now, late December, it would be b——- cold)

That’s the infrastructure covered nice and tidily, trains would be more of a problem. The nineteenth century Hungarian scene would mean scratch building. So far I’ve given drawings and photograph of their standard 0-6-0 goods engine, (page11), and an Austrian related goods van.(above) With the formation of Jugoslavia in 1920, things are easier, plenty of WW1 German surplus around, so relettered RTR could be used, ETS and Pola in 0 gauge.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Northroader

[burgundy]

You are talking yourself into a visit to Budapest, which has rather a nice museum..........

 

Best wishes 

Eric  

[sncf231e]

This is the locomotive type as seen on the black and white picture in the book (my picture from a visit to the museum in Budapest).

Regards

Fred

[Northroader]

What you’ve got there, Fred, is a MAV class Va, which became a class 370. There were 139 units built by MAV from 1898 to 1908, being the last 0-6-0s they built, at much the same time as everywhere else. They had quite small drivers, 1180mm, and were intended for nebenbahn use, light railways with low axle loads.

Previously the standard Hungarian designs had outside frames and outside cylinders, but these switched to inside frames. They were two cylinder compounds, so progressed along with half the number of chuffs you’d be expecting.

 

 

edit, two other things, as they were lightweight, they had a four wheel tender rather than the sixwheeler tender in Eric’s pictures. The one in your museum picture is airbraked, there’s one with the blacksmith built snowplough, in my station building picture, which is on the GySEV, and has vacuum brakes.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Northroader

[Northroader]

 

That time of year to thank all contributors and followers of this thread, and wish them a happy time with their folks over Christmas, and a really good new year. Next year have a look at a real or virtual trip, off beyond Dover.

 

[burgundy]

On 20/12/2022 at 08:39, burgundy said:

Thank you. I was trying to figure this out, as the main part of Serbia had gone from being part of the Ottoman Empire to an independent kingdom after 1878. I had not realised that Serbia had gained a chunk of former Hungary at the same time that Transylvania went to Romania after WW1.

Best wishes

Eric

For anyone who still wishes to understand the Austro-Hungarian influence over the Serbian railway system, 

The establishment of the first railway between Europe and Turkey. Railways and diplomacy in the Balkans (openedition.org)

is a concise and interesting read (Google translate is your friend). The journal from which it comes, Review d'histoire des chemins de fer, looks as though it might have a lot more stuff of interest.

Best wishes 

Eric 

 

[Compound2632]

There was the most unusual case of a Midland Railway engine driver who was re-employed having previously left the company's service - this was normally contrary to company policy. A bit of research showed that in the interval he had been driving on one of the first railways in the European part of the Ottoman Empire, in which several Midland directors had a financial interest. 

[Northroader]

BULGARIAN RAILWAYS.

 

Wonder if this was the one? Built in the Ottoman Empire by an English sounding firm, with the active support of Bulgarian revolutionaries who could see it as the thin end of the wedge. Looking at the train, it would be a doddle to model, yes, indeedy....

 

 

 

https://bnr.bg/en/post/100707589/the-revolutionaries-that-built-bulgaria-s-railways

 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

Varna rings a bell. But does that 0-6-0 have a 2.438 m + 2.590 m wheelbase?

 

My knowledge of this is down to a piece in a number of the Midland Railway Society Journal. I'll see if I can find it. British interest was in providing the Ottoman Empire with infrastructure to resist Russian aggression - vide Disraeli and the Congress of Berlin.

[Northroader]

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_State_Railways_locomotives_142-150

 

The line you mention, Stephen, almost certainly is the Ruse to Varna Railway, opened in 1866, as part of the extensive international manoeuvring highlighted in Eric’s link. Britain and France were concerned to try to limit Russian expansion. The Ottoman Empire had extended up to the Southern boundaries of Austria, but through the nineteenth century, right up to WW1,Turkish influence was waning, and languages, cultures, religions and ethnicity led to new states being created. Russia and Austria aiding this militarily, Britain and France getting involved through such actions as the Crimean War, all in all a very tangled tale.

When it opened, the aim was to link traffic and trade on the lower Danube at Ruse, to the Black Sea Port of Varna, a route of around 105 miles, as navigation through the channels of the delta at the mouth of the Danube was difficult. It was the first railway in what became Bulgaria, passing through dirt poor feudal areas, with Russian army presence. Another French sponsored railway, the Chemin de Fer Orientaux, the CO, was subsequently created heading north west from Constantinople, which eventually reached Serbia, and this absorbed the Ruse Varna line in 1873, before becoming in part Bulgarian State railways in 1888. All of this had the intention of linking Western Europe with Turkey, but through a deeply unsettled area. The Orient Express started operation in 1883, passing from Budapest through what had become Rumania, to a port at Giurgiu, opposite side of the Danube to Ruse, then ferry across and another train to Varna. Here the journey continued down the Black Sea on an Austrian Lloyd steamer to reach Constantinople. Later on the journey was routed through the Rumanian port of Constanza, before the CO route opened throughout.

 

Michael Portillo visited Bulgaria on one of his TV trips, and I was left with the impression of a really pleasant country, wonder if they had a sort of Ashburton/ Oxenhope line somewhere where you could run a British 0-6-0?

Edited January 8, 2023 by Northroader