“BEYOND DOVER”

[burgundy]

This website on the Ottoman chemin de fer orientaux is worth a visit, if the area interests you.

As a not entirely unconnected question, can anyone think of any UK railway publishers that are interested in European railways? Railway history seems to follow national stovepipes rather rigidly!

Best wishes 

Eric 

[pete_mcfarlane]

4 minutes ago, burgundy said:

As a not entirely unconnected question, can anyone think of any UK railway publishers that are interested in European railways? Railway history seems to follow national stovepipes rather rigidly!

Best wishes 

Eric 

Off the top of my head:

 

Pen and Sword have done some books on German steam recently,

Unique books have a series of photo albums: https://www.uniquebooks.pub/unique-books-shop-2021

Middleton Press (European NG lines)

Oakwood Press (French NG)

Mainline and Maritime

Platform5 (mostly spotter books on the current European scene)

And there's Stenvalls, who are Swedish but do books on European railways in English. 

 

 

[Northroader]

Thanks for the link to the CO, Eric, most useful, and one I had missed. 

I used to whizz out of Leicester Square underground and round the corner into St. Martins Court, and the railway bookshop up the alley there, (Motor Books), which I think has now gone. It was the place to go for overseas railway books, as well as British, and in the time I went, there was a noticeable reduction in the amount of titles available. Was it stock levels, or competition from online sources? Should you be looking at printing on paper, or going digital? I’m sure you have a desire to make knowledge widely available, rather than making the best seller chart. How best to do this, it’s a concern that I have touched on in some of the really good sites I link into. Storage, software up grades, permanency,sponsorship? All future problems.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Northroader

[burgundy]

13 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Off the top of my head:

 

Pen and Sword have done some books on German steam recently,

Unique books have a series of photo albums: https://www.uniquebooks.pub/unique-books-shop-2021

Middleton Press (European NG lines)

Oakwood Press (French NG)

Mainline and Maritime

Platform5 (mostly spotter books on the current European scene)

And there's Stenvalls, who are Swedish but do books on European railways in English. 

Thank you for the suggestions. I am not sure that I have found the right site for Stenvalls although I have found some of their books. What I have in mind is probably more like the sort of book that David and Charles used to publish - lots of words and a few photos, rather than the other way round which Middleton Press do so well. It may end up as a sort of reference book with quite a substantial "thud" factor.

 

13 hours ago, Northroader said:

Should you be looking at printing on paper, or going digital? I’m sure you have a desire to make knowledge widely available, rather than making the best seller chart. 

When I worked in London, Motor books was also a regular lunchtime browsing spot - next to Hamblings. Instinctively, I am thinking of publishing on paper; I like to be able to flip backwards and forwards between pages to refer back to maps etc. I certainly do not aspire to the best seller lists!

Best wishes 

Eric  

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

1 hour ago, burgundy said:

Thank you for the suggestions. I am not sure that I have found the right site for Stenvalls although I have found some of their books. What I have in mind is probably more like the sort of book that David and Charles used to publish - lots of words and a few photos, rather than the other way round which Middleton Press do so well. It may end up as a sort of reference book with quite a substantial "thud" factor.

This seems to be their website, although Google translate doesn't seem to be working on my PC at the moment so it's all in Swedish....

https://www.stenvalls.com/stenvalls-egen-utgivning-1966

 

This was a particularly nice book https://www.stenvalls.com/stenvalls-egen-utgivning-1966/steam-in-europe-1894-1947

A mix of photos of Dutch, Belgian, British and French steam, taken by a Dutchman, in a book written by Dutchmen and publish in English by Swedes. 

[burgundy]

5 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

This was a particularly nice book https://www.stenvalls.com/stenvalls-egen-utgivning-1966/steam-in-europe-1894-1947

A mix of photos of Dutch, Belgian, British and French steam, taken by a Dutchman, in a book written by Dutchmen and publish in English by Swedes. 

That seems to convert to about £28 which does not sound bad for a hardback. 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Northroader]

STENVALLS  PUBLISHERS.

 

Funny thing, here’s a book published in 1978, I got from Motor Books, never noticed the publisher until now. This one is in, er... Danish?

Edited January 10, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

CHEMIN DE FER ORIENTAUX. (CO) plus TURKISH RAILWAYS.

 

Just jumping around a teeny bit, here’s a slightly fuller account of the development of the C.F. Orientaux:

 

http://www.trainsofturkey.com/index.php/History/CO

 

You can also find links on that site which can get you round the history of railway development in Turkey generally.

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

IL MONDO DEI TRENI

 

Just idly browsing this morning, and I found a useful website to further assist anyone interested in Italian Railways. Loads of blog type articles on different aspects, plus the index will take you to loco lists, descriptions of individual lines from the historical development angle, and so on. I’m on Apple, so trying to get the translate to work at present.

 

http://www.ilmondodeitreni.it

 

 

[5944]

On 17/01/2023 at 14:27, Northroader said:

IL MONDO DEI TRENI

 

Just idly browsing this morning, and I found a useful website to further assist anyone interested in Italian Railways. Loads of blog type articles on different aspects, plus the index will take you to loco lists, descriptions of individual lines from the historical development angle, and so on. I’m on Apple, so trying to get the translate to work at present.

 

http://www.ilmondodeitreni.it

 

 

I think I've probably mentioned this site before, but another useful one that includes modelling info as well is https://scalaenne.wordpress.com/

[doctor quinn]

On 09/01/2023 at 16:47, Northroader said:

STENVALLS  PUBLISHERS.

 

Funny thing, here’s a book published in 1978, I got from Motor Books, never noticed the publisher until now. This one is in, er... Danish?

Yes that's in Danish, most of my copies of the Nordens Jarnvagnar annual came from Motor Books.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Those rings (in their national colours) around the smokebox are a giveaway for Danish steam locos.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Those rings (in their national colours) around the smokebox are a giveaway for Danish steam locos.

 

[pete_mcfarlane]

It's a good thing they put the national flag rings on that one, or you'd assume it was Belgian due the square chimney.

[Northroader]

SKORSTENSBAND.

 

I did do a link back on page 6, but I copy it off here, “skorstensband”, with a few accents, refers to the coloured band round the base of the chimney for steam locos in Denmark. The national system,DSB, used the national colours, but the privatbaner, of which there used to be quite a few, did their own thing. The Danes have a strong maritime tradition, and you could draw an analogy to the funnels of shipping lines being done in “house” colours. Down the Mersey way back, “Ellerman”, “Canadian Pacific”,”Cunard”, and so on. Fancy if British pregroup lines had done it?

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

All grist to the Legoer's mill, though OHJ, HTJ, and HVJ would be problematic.

[Northroader]

DANISH 0-4-0T

 

Looking at the 0-4-0T in the museum, it is very delectable, so here’s a picture of four Danish beauties:

 

 

I don’t know much about three of them, but then the fourth is the Hs 0-4–0T in original state, and on a passenger train, too. (I think it’s a quayside shuttle service connecting to a ferry) Here’s a write up with pics:

 

https://www.jernbanen.dk/damp_solo.php?s=1&lokid=72

 

The later series were done with flush fireboxes and the combined steam and sand domes, a really Danish feature.

There’s an interesting build running for a very similar litra (class) N 0-4-0T, which has the attraction for the modeller of not  having outside valve gear, a very tempting idea:

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Northroader

[Mikkel]

On 21/01/2023 at 11:23, Northroader said:

DANISH 0-4-0T

 

Looking at the 0-4-0T in the museum, it is very delectable, so here’s a picture of four Danish beauties:

 

 

 

 

That's delightful. I work about 400 meters from where the photo was taken. A similar stroll in today's world would no doubt have caused some jaw-dropping among the three ladies:

 

 

 

I can only agree about Geraint's work with the Litra N, it is superb.

 

I'm glad you've found https://www.jernbanen.dk/, it's a very good resource, including complete and well illustrated stock lists of all stock belonging to the historical private railways.

 

My favourite of the latter is OHJ - Odsherreds Jernbane. They had some interesting locos and stock, including wagons which started out as primitive passenger "bench coaches" before being converted to goods - but not until ca. 1923! A restored  example in various re-converted conditions can be seen here.

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Mikkel

[Northroader]

ODSHERREDS JERNBANE - OHJ.

 

Thank you, Mikkel, I thought Southend beach got crowded! That passenger/ goods vehicle is as good as anything Colonel Stephens could do. The two OHJ 0-6-0s look very attractive, as well, plus the stars on their chimneys:

 

 

I see it’s still functioning, although these days using nice flashy rail cars:

 

http://evp.dk/index.php?page=ohj-vl-stationer

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

Well, I started this thread three years ago today, and thanks to everyone for their support since then. To celebrate I thought I’d plant a tree, or two. Now, I’m no Constance Spry, but the essential fact you need to grasp when you’re sitting your diploma for flower arranging is that: YOU MUST ALWAYS PUT AN ODD NUMBER OF FLOWERS IN A VASE, NEVER AN EVEN NUMBER. With this in mind, I’m adding another one to the right hand clump, and an odd one in the left hand corner, next to where the station building is going. (The other two in the pack can go on one of the other lines)

Edited February 1, 2023 by Northroader

[burgundy]

As a piece of trivia which may appeal to inmates of this thread, which international treaty (articles X and XXXVIII) established the route that would be used by the Orient Express?

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Player of trains]

Oh dear what a dangerously inspirational thread to find and spend reading this week in my free moments. Northroader whatever have you done. Why am I looking at a Keyser kit of an LSWR falcon sitting half built in its box and thinking it needs some French accoutrements. Why am I looking at CAD for freelance vans and thinking they could be lengthened. 

I think a bug has bitten...

[Northroader]

Thanks for your comments, and nice to know you like the thread. I have to confess I’ve been blissfully unaware of the goings on in the middle of the North Sea, and I’ve been impressed by your inventiveness, and the fluency of your print skills, so I’ll be following your thread in future. 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

On 09/02/2023 at 07:18, burgundy said:

As a piece of trivia which may appeal to inmates of this thread, which international treaty (articles X and XXXVIII) established the route that would be used by the Orient Express?

Best wishes 

Eric 

 

TREATY OF BERLIN, 1878.

 

Well, Eric, no takers for your your question so far, I thought some very erudite person would have taken the bait by now, so I’d best try by default. Perhaps the best place to start would be doing an enquiry on the Crimean War, which nicely illustrates the power struggle in the Eastern Mediterranean / Balkans / Black Sea area in the Victorian era, with Britain, France, Austria, Germany, Russia, and Turkey (as the Ottoman Empire) all with their competing interests, trying to control events, with occasional military force. The war ended with the Treaty of Paris in 1856, one of the items being the formation of Romania as an independent state from Turkish control. 

The Russians continued to help Balkan nations such as Serbia and Bulgaria to assert their independence, with a war with Turkey in 1878 (we’ve seen on page 21 how this led to the multiplication of the “O” class 0-8-0s in Russia) The Russians and Turks concluded their own treaty, the Treaty of San Setefano in 1878.  This incurs a marvellous Latin legal expression “Rebus sic Stantibus” (as things stand) meaning in effect “my forces are in there, so previous legal treaties now have no meaning” (does this sound familiar 175 years later?!?) Of course the Western powers listed above felt shut out and insisted on a new treaty looking after their concerns. This was the Treaty of Berlin 1878. (The historian AJP Taylor said that if the Treaty of San Setefano had been allowed to stand, then WW1 wouldn’t have happened) Now from the people, politics, and timing I would guess that the clauses you’re after are in the Treaty of Berlin, Eric?

Compagnie Internationale Wagons Lits, CIWL, was founded in 1873, and the first run of the Orient Express was in 1883.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Northroader

[burgundy]

Northroader 

Your logic is impeccable and correct.

Best wishes 

Eric 

PS After that effort, it seems a shame to point out that the "best wishes" in my previous post was underlined and actually a hot link to the text of the treaty.