“BEYOND DOVER”

[Northroader]

Thanks for your concern, Denys, I think you need to factor in that self and my wife are both 85 years old. About the time you’ve made your post I had a dizzy spell whilst taking a turn round the garden, and ended up back in Swindon GW hospital (A&E on a Saturday night (!!!!)) Anyhow, part due to dehydration, part due to some of the tablets prescribed. Finally released Wednesday afternoon, and now able to reply, feeling much better.

I'm hell bent on keeping some continental modelling going, if on a limited scope, never fear.

[Mikkel]

 We on the Continent salute you.  Here's to many more of your superb wagons, Northroader.

 

I've just enjoyed studying your EST wagons again, here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/151308-“beyond-dover”/?do=findComment&comment=4081831

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Mikkel

[Northroader]

OLD PRUSSIA.

 

Looking this up in a search, you’ll find quite a convoluted history. The original Prussia wasn’t anything to do with the area around Berlin, this being Brandenberg, but was well to the East, a broad strip of country South of the Baltic Sea. There’s a long string of happenings in history, conversion to Christianity, fights with the Kingdoms of Sweden, Lithuania, Poland, the Holy Roman Empire, Religious wars, you name it. Perhaps salient points were the merger with Brandenberg, Prussia becoming the name of the unified country, and the Germanification of the old area. Pomerania and Silesia, to the south were absorbed, and the country became a strong military power, opposing Napoleon. They saved the British from defeat at Waterloo in 1815, and were rewarded with the Rhineland territories. This left them in control of the two richest iron and coal producing areas on the continent at the start of the Industrial revolution. In the mid Victorian era they had a statesman in Bismarck, with the ambition of establishing the primacy of Prussia, at the head of a unification of German states. Muscular diplomacy led to a succession of nasty wars, first with Denmark, leading to the annexation of Schleswig Holstein, then Austria, with the Kingdom of Hannover being assimilated, and lastly with France, in 1870, ending with the French provinces of Alsace and Lorraine becoming German. A confederation of German states was established, with the Prussian king becoming Emperor of it all.

Jumping forward, old Prussia was very German, with a leavening of Poles, having their own catholic religion and language, and treated very much as second class citizens, and this became worse in the Nazi era. The boot was on the other foot in 1945, with the advance of the Red Army. There was a mass exodus of Germans westwards to beyond the River Oder, and the territory became part of Poland. (The Russians had already snaffled the eastern part of Poland under the terms of the infamous Molotov- Ribbentrop pact of 1939, this becoming Byelorusse)

Anyway, enough history, what of the railways in 1900? It was all part of the Prussian State Railway, which as I understand it, was a Government Department, with any operating surplus going straight into the Treasury. Below this level, the railway was organised into Divisions, centred on the large towns. Old Prussia was served by the Prussian Eastern Railway, and this was constructed at the insistence of the Army, with the ability to rapidly move a fully equipped force from barracks near Berlin, 460 miles east to the Russian border at Lithuania.

 

I can return to the standard range of locos, but for now I just like to put in a few words on the carriage and wagon side. The Prussian coaches were quite distinctive, slab sided four wheelers with end entrance balconies, steps and railings, and noteworthy boxy clerestories. The bodies were painted to accord with the class of passenger they were intended for. The one I’m showing is from the old Pola range, decorated for Hesse Railways, which did a merger with the Prussian system around 1890? If you replace the wheelsets and bearings, they’re quite a decent model. In H0 scale, Fleischmann do a good range.

 

Turning to wagons, and a very useful site for the wagon cognoscenti who use this thread, you have:

 

http://dit-modell.de

 

if you “klicken sie auf..” on the homepage, then “modelle bauteile” you can find some very nice side elevations, colours and lettering for old Prussian wagons, with thumbnail links for each type. One feature is that each sort had a city name on it, presumably telegraphic reference?

Lastly, we can’t go anywhere without a bierwagen. I couldn’t find any for the big Danzig breweries, rather surprisingly, but here’s one from a Baltic port just to the East, producing “Englisch Bier” (!!)

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

Before we were married, my wife taught for two years in a language teacher training college in Leginca, a nondescript town about half-way between Zgorzelec on the River Neisse and the city of Wroclaw, the capital of Lower Silesia. (All off the bottom of your Pommeranian map.) Wroclaw had been well-known under its German name of Breslau, to enthusiasts for the music of Johannes Brahms at the very least, whilst Zgorzelec had been the eastern suburb of Goerlitz, which is now the easternmost town in Germany. Legnica's German name was Liegnitz. I travelled by train to see her there several times. Many of the railway buildings were to the same designs one had seen between Lipsk, Drezno (Leipzig and Dresden in German) and the Niesse. But what really struck me was how reminiscent it felt of the surviving infrastructure of the North Eastern Railway.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

I think I can understand your comment, Stephen. Digging around I’m comparing a Prehm kit for a Prussian railway station with a slightly smaller station on the Hornsea line. G.T.Andrews was the architect for the bulk of the lines on the southern half of the NER, all having a family resemblance.

 

pointers are quite a low pitched roof with wide eaves, brick construction, and plain simple lines, symmetrical without any fancy embellishments 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

There was, especially, as I remember it, something about the signal boxes. I can't find a good photo online, unfortunately.

[Northroader]

“Stellewerke” on an enquiry. None of the country stations would have signal boxes like a British railway, the block instruments and double wire pull levers would be either just inside, or close to the station building. Boxes as we know them only happened at the larger stations and junctions.

[kitpw]

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

G.T.Andrews was the architect for the bulk of the lines on the southern half of the NER,

As it happens, I was looking for a picture or diagram of so-called 'Euston Trusses' the other day and came across G T Andrews and his work on York's First Station in this article on Victorian Web https://victorianweb.org/art/architecture/andrews/1.html.  There's a photo of the trusses supporting a pair of glazed roofs with raised smoke dispersion at the ridges, each roof with a 40' span overall like the original Euston station (200' x (2 x 40') train shed(s)). [My interest in these roofs may become clearer when I do a post about it on Swan Hill in the next few weeks]. The plainness of his architectural style is what appeals, particularly the buildings where the palette of material is restricted to brickwork with relatively plain slate roof forms over. The plainness is quite characteristic of earlier Victorian "functionalist" architecture - Cubitt's Kings X is another example with only the Italianate clock tower as an embellishment. The glazed truss roof is probably Andrews at his most exuberant, I particurlaly like the small roof between the two 40' span roofs to make a slightly wider station than Euston - maybe because it was junction not a terminus? 

VictorianWeb allow scholarly (!) use of their photos with appropriate credit...

 

...and his own office is a charming near masterpiece of understatement

(pity about the road sign).

Photos curtesy of VictorianWeb

[Northroader]

KARTONMODELLE.

 

whilst on the subject of Prussian railway buildings, one modelling aspect which deserves consideration is the use of cardboard for models. This has quite an active following on the continent, and does give a decent source for scale prototypes. If nothing else, you can get a template to do a model in more involved materials.

 

https://www.kartonmodellbau.org/cgi-bin/bogen.pl?showentryv=1297-Ma Ka Mo Walfried Fehse

 

 

[Northroader]

THE GUEST HOUSE AT BUDWITY.

 

This post is to do with his Imperial Highness, Kaiser Wilhelm II Hohenzollern. (Aka to you and me as “Kaiser Bill”) It seems that he was very fond of going on trips shooting game, and in the Old Prussia that we’ve been looking at, there were large country estates, heathland, forests, marshes and lakes, where this happened. One of these belonged to a special friend of his, a noble Count, which he visited frequently, at Prokelwitz/ Prakwice.

The place wasn’t served by a train station, so a special halt was constructed nearby solely for the Emperor to detrain from his Imperial saloon carriage. A small pavilion was placed there, which I think was where the two friends could greet each other and down a schnapps or two,  before progressing to Counts residence. It looks a bit small to function as an overnight stay. The architecture was particularly noteworthy as being in the Romantic Nordic style, so much more suited to the set of a Wagner opera, then highly popular, and fuelling German nationalism. I would venture it as being quite a rarity for a railway building,  and a good challenge for anyone who likes building unusual  stations.

 

 

You can find plenty of good photos on “Dworzec Cesarka Wilhelma”. Well, 1918 came along, and with it an end to shooting trips, the chaos engulfing Germany leading the Army High Command telling the Kaiser they could no longer protect him, and him going to an estate in the Netherlands for the rest of his life. The railway authorities decided the building would be useful as a proper passenger station, and it was moved down the line to Ebenhoh/ Budwity , with block signalling installed. It looks as if it was sectional wood construction, which would help this. A long time and another world war passed, then with a system rationalisation the line was closed. The building is still there, however, standing on a low platform, with a broad grassy strip where the tracks ran. It has been done up into a guest house.

 

https://dworzecwilhelma.pl/en/historia/

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

There's something rather familiar about the shape of that turret roof:

 

[Northroader]

Then there was the station staff:

[Player of trains]

I did wonder why the station had those big stripy poles either end of the platform, just the station staff's lances

[Donw]

Are you sure that isn't the local WI they look fierce enough

 

Don

[SM42]

On 16/04/2023 at 16:14, Compound2632 said:

There was, especially, as I remember it, something about the signal boxes. I can't find a good photo online, unfortunately.

 

I thought this one was very reminiscent of those found in the North Eastern ish parts of the UK. 

 

 

Gorki Noteckie is a small wayside station between Gorzow Wielopolskie and Krzyz on the line between Berlin and Kalingrad which features on the map above ( between Kustrin and Kreuz? on the map) 

 

Andy

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by SM42

[Compound2632]

Yes, that's the sort of thing i had in mind. If you reined in that roof overhang...

 

 

[Embedded link to Flickr.]

 

Well, both are built of brick...

 

But part of a pattern.

[Northroader]

And maybe some signals?

https://www.real-modell.de/zubehoer-h0/am-gleis-signale/bausatz-hauptsignal-typ-henning-2-fluegelig.html

[Northroader]

48 MANN, ODER 6 PFERDE

 

The Prussian hierarchy quickly realised the usefulness of railways in moving a fully equipped army across the country to the borders, and the Prussian Eastern Railway was done at their instigation with this in mind, to be able to face Russia. It would seem that following the various wars conducted in the 1860-70 period, ideas for improvements were done, and one obvious one was the branding of goods vans (gedeckte guterwagen) with their capacity for fully equipped soldiers or horses.

 

 

Here is one of the standard G10 ‘Berlin’ vans, and you’ll see top L.H corner “M.T.48 M. 6 Pf” (Militar transport, 48 mann, 6 pferde) This was applied to all the all state railways stock, with variations as to the van size. Vans which couldn’t be used, mainly unventilated beer vans, were branded “spezialwagen”.

A vehicle was also designed for use in hospital trains, the “fakultativwagen”. Construction was very similar to the Maunsell SECR utility vans, angle iron outside framing supporting t.& g. board panels. The layout was similar to four wheel coaching stock, with end platform entrances, and limited side windows, but in addition having side doors to facilitate stretcher loading. They couldn’t have seen much use for their intended purpose, and the various landerbahn used them for third and fourth class passenger coaches, parcels, luggage and brake vans, and several have lasted long enough for preservation.

 

http://www.mkb-berlin.de/fz_mkb12.htm

 

These steps were done in the 1880-90 era, and eventually the French authorities copied the idea, and French goods vans gained similar branding, I think from around the mid 1900 period.

 

These vans did see widespread use in WW1, and gained notoriety with American forces when they entered the war. Something of a culture shock when coming down a gangplank at La Rochelle or wherever, to be faced with these for onward transport, having been transported round the States in elderly Pullman cars. Veterans leagues in America after the war could refer to themselves as “40 and 8 associations”, and individual American states were gifted with a van, decorated with shields of the French departments. ETS trains do these, in 0 scale tinplate, but they’re really only any use as a collectors item, you couldn’t put them on a layout.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merci_Train

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Northroader

[pete_mcfarlane]

It's always written as '40 hommes et 8 chevaux' rather than 'ou 8 chevaux'. Must have been a bit cosy.

[Northroader]

PRUSSIAN G.1, T.0, T.3.
 

Looking at the potential of a micro layout set in Old Prussia, there’s the question of suitable motive power. The state railway was formed by a patchwork of private railway takeovers plus state development, and the loco fleet was a mixed bag in consequence. In 1883 blocks of numbers were allocated, for number of coupled wheels and usage, but the railway system was split into divisions, each of which had their own loco fleet numbered using this method, so you needed to know the division as well as the number to identify a particular engine. Standardised designs were also introduced around this time. In 1903 classes began to be designated as to function, “S” for schnellzug, (expresses), “P” for personenzug, (ordinary passenger), “G” for guterzug, (goods trains), and “T” tenderlok, (tank engines), systemwide numbering came in, and more standardisation of components between classes became the norm.

Picking on three attractive classes, can I suggest first a G.1, a 0-4-0 tender design, first built for the Ostbahn in 1878. I gather they were intended for working longer branch lines, and copies were built for other parts of the KPEV. I’ve lifted the illustration from the wiki article,  they had a four wheel tender, so looked quite cute. There’s another picture in the Borsig catalogue on page 21 of this thread.

The various state railways were also fed by nebenbahn, light railways with limited axle loads and speed limits, which required specialised designs. The Prussian T.0 was one of these, a 2-2-0T. The picture is of one in the Berliner Technik museum. (The drawing shows one kitted out with overhead cables and pulleys for push pull working).

Lastly there’s Germanys answer to “Terriers” and “Buckjumpers”, the T3 0-6-0T, capable of light railway working, besides limited duties on the main lines. Copies were built for the Saxon and Württemberg lines, besides being common on the Prussian system, and they are still around in preservation. (I’ve got a grotty old POLA 0 gauge one badly in need of shops attention)

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Northroader

[Northroader]

DANISH MODEL LAYOUT.
 

Just posting a video taken at a Dutch model show of a Danish layout, which ticks all the boxes, careful scenic modelling (well, it’s Dutch, ain’t it?) and very simple, just plain track with a halt platform in the countryside. Perhaps the windmill is a bit of a gimmick, and oversize for the overall composition? An excellent example, I think.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

Compare De Graafstroom, as seen (watched for hours) at the 2019 Uckfield exhibition:

 

 

There's only the stump of a windmill, in which the parents of one of the builders grew up.

[adrianmc]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Compare De Graafstroom, as seen (watched for hours) at the 2019 Uckfield exhibition:

 

 

There's only the stump of a windmill, in which the parents of one of the builders grew up.

 

Unfortunately the layout's visit to Uckfield in 2019 might be its only one to the UK given the perceived complications of taking a layout across the Channel.

 

http://www.uckfieldmrc.co.uk/exhib19/degraafstroom.html

 

I know Vincent had the following shows in the UK lined up before the COVID pandemic and Brexit - Railwells (2020), CMRA Stevenage (2021), Warley NEC (2021) and  a request for expoEM.

 

 

[SM42]

Back in 2021 I was in Ustka on the Baltic Coast of Poland. 

 

Looking at the map above it is shown by its German name of Stolpmunde.

 

One of the history boards around the town, showed an old picture of the docks with some interesting 6 wheel wagons in shot.

 

 

Andy

[Northroader]

PRUSSIAN SIX-WHEELED VAN.
 

Thanks for that, Andy, really useful picture. I hadn’t realised there were such things as German six wheel goods wagons, and so did a quick search. I could find a six wheel van, but not an open.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Northroader