Hygiene at supermarkets during Coronavirus epidemic

[adb968008]

22 minutes ago, vaughan45 said:

As this virus is not just going to disappear, unfortunately I think that society will have to accept the level of risk that as was common until the middle of the 20th century with diseases such as TB, Diphtheria and Polio etc. being endemic before the days of mass vaccination or large scale antibiotics. It should be remembered that the death rate from TB was far higher than Covid-19 (75% at some points in history), although it could take rather longer to cause a slow lingering death.

 

Unfortunately the days of living in an environment with limited risk are now over and coupled with other issues such as disease strains that are resistant to antibiotics the likelihood is that more of us will not live to great age and depending on our co-mobilities could find our lives ended rather sooner than we expected. The old 'normal' has ceased to exist and we will have to adjust accordingly.

Which begs the question thats occured many times in history...

 

do we let it rampant loose, with 3-4 months of horror, mass graves, fire pits, accept Charles Darwin’s evolution of the species.. but then its gone, over.

 

Or the current approach of forming an orderly queue and wait your turn to catch it, sometime in the next few years, not knowing when its your turn, just to die in a hospital bed instead of on the street.

 

This isnt a purely British question, the whole planet is exposed, even if we got our cases to zero, one flight from an obscure corner of the world can set it going again, indeed viruses mutate so it could come back at you a few times from different countries in a few years time... giving a virus too much time to mutate isn't always a good thing.

 

Instead of a vaccine or cure, the solution may actually be like fire fighting, in that you identify a mild strain that you can give to many, that causes the severe strain to fade out... China already did say there was a mild strain, but global travel and the viruses characteristics saw the severe strain travel widely... thats similar to how the 1918 H1N1 pandemic travelled, but its 2009 H1N1 cousin was much less impactful, as many already had immunity from other related strains over the years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by adb968008

[Nearholmer]

How is the lock-down holding where you live?

 

I ask, because I think I notice a tiny bit of fraying at the edges locally. Nothing major, but things like people popping out in their cars to drop things off to friends, then having long (properly distanced) conversations down the length of the garden path, and a bit more traffic on some days (a perception that is apparently borne out by government stats).

 

There’s also the re-opening of B&Q, and the reported re-start of some building work, in both cases things that were shut down as a precaution, although theoretically allowed to be open all along.

 

Is there a creeping sense of security?

[polybear]

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

How is the lock-down holding where you live?

 

I ask, because I think I notice a tiny bit of fraying at the edges locally. Nothing major, but things like people popping out in their cars to drop things off to friends, then having long (properly distanced) conversations down the length of the garden path, and a bit more traffic on some days (a perception that is apparently borne out by government stats).

 

There’s also the re-opening of B&Q, and the reported re-start of some building work, in both cases things that were shut down as a precaution, although theoretically allowed to be open all along.

 

Is there a creeping sense of security?

 

The only one that I'm not keen on in that list is building sites re-opening (some never closed), as many building projects make social distancing pretty impossible.  House sales, viewing, surveys etc. etc. are pretty difficult/impossible in the current climate (and how many can commit to the financial implications in the current climate?) and I'd imagine that it isn't a great time for commercial property sales/letting either - so why the urgency on such projects?

[vaughan45]

21 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

The only one that I'm not keen on in that list is building sites re-opening (some never closed), as many building projects make social distancing pretty impossible.  House sales, viewing, surveys etc. etc. are pretty difficult/impossible in the current climate (and how many can commit to the financial implications in the current climate?) and I'd imagine that it isn't a great time for commercial property sales/letting either - so why the urgency on such projects?

 

I suspect that the pressure to re-open building sites may have come from the various sub-contractors who may not be covered by any government income scheme and therefore don't have income if the sites are closed. With regard to DIY centres I doubt I would risk my life for anything they sell.

[Pete the Elaner]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

How is the lock-down holding where you live?

 

I ask, because I think I notice a tiny bit of fraying at the edges locally. Nothing major, but things like people popping out in their cars to drop things off to friends, then having long (properly distanced) conversations down the length of the garden path, and a bit more traffic on some days (a perception that is apparently borne out by government stats).

 

There’s also the re-opening of B&Q, and the reported re-start of some building work, in both cases things that were shut down as a precaution, although theoretically allowed to be open all along.

 

Is there a creeping sense of security?

 

I have been out for a short (35 minute-ish) run several times during the lockdown & from what I see, ti seems to be loosening a little.

I have run the same route each time, passing a public field & sports field.

Each time (apart from today) there have been 2 people smoking in an underpass (surely for a disease which attacks the lungs, smoking must increase risks significantly? The news virtually ignores this).

When I run past the sports field, there was 1 person practising football. This increased & today, there were 3 standing by the ball & 2 others elsewhere.

I passed about 3 pairs of 20-something blokes waling together tonight. I doubt they live together.

 

I just get the impression that public are starting to relax on social distancing.

 

The roads & pathways still seem to be quieter than normal though. Surely this in the intention of social distancing? Assuming a vaccine is not found, staying completely apart will stop the virus spreading in the short term but let it loose again once restrictions are relaxed?

I am quite enjoying the isolation. I am getting more work done on the layout & keep in touch with friends via phone calls & the local club has started a video conference on club nights, which is an excellent way to keep in touch.

[Nearholmer]

10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

smoking must increase risks significantly?

Yes and no.

 

There is a major study going on in France to investigate why smokers significantly are less likely than others to contract the disease. The answer seems to be that the virus enters the central nervous system using receptors that are also used by nicotine, so that in smokers the receptors are already loaded, blocked effectively.

 

The French Government yesterday impounded all nicotine patches with a view to issuing them to medical staff.

 

Of course, if a smoker does contract it, outcomes are very bad.
 

More widely, I’ve noticed small clutches of late teens and early twenties out and about right since the start, and more so recently. Charitably, I assume they are ‘flat sharers’, but I suspect that they are the demographic that find it hardest to stick to the rules (any rules, about anything!).

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Nearholmer

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

How is the lock-down holding where you live?

 

...Is there a creeping sense of security?

Immediate neighbourhood, tight as a drum. Shopping is being done on a once a week basis by one person in the household, drop offs of supplies on doorsteps of those who were already housebound, organised by 'the wives' using an app. We have introduced afternoon tea, where we sit in front gardens and gossip, ample distancing.

 

Roads still quiet when we go out. The wife and I have a solution for our demented elderly folk in care homes for whom tech solutions to compensate for the absence of visiting simply don't work. We go to the homes - all nearby - and shout at them from the empty visitor's car park, and generally fool around, which works well, lots of smiles and waving.

 

I have relatives and friends who live in central London. They report a fair degree of non-conformance to lock down. Among the young I speak to regularly there's a definite and growing 'it's an old fart killer' vibe. I feel that my attitude at their age would have been 'life is for living, let's get on with it'. Sap's rising too, it's the mating season. Lock down is running out of road in terms of conformance by general consent, IMO.

[Nearholmer]

4 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Lock down is running out of road in terms of conformance by general consent, IMO.

That’s my sense too, which is partly why I asked the question.

 

Im not suggesting that there is anything like widespread or gross non-compliance, but it does look/feel to me as if a slow and silent renegotiation is beginning.

 

The ‘norm’ that I think I see being created is one that says it is OK to travel across town to visit friends or relations, provided that when you get there the socialising takes place outdoors, and from a good distance.

[Baby Deltic]

Don't forget to always wear a mask when outdoors:

 

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InsignificantAccurateBushbaby-mobile.mp4

Edited April 25, 2020 by Baby Deltic

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Why didn't I think of that, have a pack of that flexible plastic trunking somewhere. (Original proposed solution for connecting up a cooker hood extractor via a convoluted route to a very awkwardly positioned outside flue in a friend's house: but then thankfully a vastly superior corrugated aluminium product was discovered and used instead, I wouldn't have given much for the plastic stuff's longevity.)

[Nearholmer]

Further to the “fraying at the edges” observation that I made a few days ago:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52442573

 

 

[JSpencer]

There was a publication from March the 5th in China showing how it spread on a bus. But the publication was retracted 5 days later. Reasons unstated but some questions about why those nearest were not infected. I guess maybe the others who became ill could have got from someone else and not the bus.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/other/journal-retracts-study-on-how-far-coronavirus-can-spread-through-droplets/ar-BB10ZWh5

 

If further study shows it to be accurate, well air conditioning is a right pain spreading it, some poor sole caught 30 minutes after the spreader left the bus and masks seemed to worked for those wearing them in this one off case study (though could be a lucky one off).

 

Keep up social distancing while shopping.

 

Edit: It was a 4 hour coach trip from one city to another. The spreader got off the bus and 30 minutes later someone boarded for the return trip, he caught it. Whether from touching or breathing is not known. I would assume the former.

Bit of miracle that the passenger next door did not pick it up! 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by JSpencer

[Nearholmer]

The frustrating thing about that item is that it says nothing about why the article was retracted! 
 

Could be anything from a major error of fact, to a minor error of citation.

 

 

[Baby Deltic]

Going out shopping? Introducing the new Moo-Mask (TM).

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Baby Deltic said:

Going out shopping? Introducing the new Moo-Mask (TM).

 

Looks like BBC budget  cuts have hit the next series of Doctor Who, with the new Cyberman costume.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

BBC Report about the c9000 fines issued for breach of lock-down, quoting a police chief superintendent:

 

"Figures showed a third of those fined were aged between 18-24 and another third aged 25-34 while around eight out of 10 were men."

 

Which bears out my hunch that younger people would find lock-down hardest, and no surprise that its mostly "lads". Absolutely no sense of risk to self, and a poorly-formed view of social responsibility ........ I know, I was one once! 

 

 

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

BBC Report about the c9000 fines issued for breach of lock-down, quoting a police chief superintendent:

 

"Figures showed a third of those fined were aged between 18-24 and another third aged 25-34 while around eight out of 10 were men."

 

Which bears out my hunch that younger people would find lock-down hardest, and no surprise that its mostly "lads". Absolutely no sense of risk to self, and a poorly-formed view of social responsibility ........ I know, I was one once! 

 

 

 

 

480,000 fines issued in France

The UK police aren't trying   

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

BBC Report about the c9000 fines issued for breach of lock-down, quoting a police chief superintendent:

 

"Figures showed a third of those fined were aged between 18-24 and another third aged 25-34 while around eight out of 10 were men."

 

Which bears out my hunch that younger people would find lock-down hardest, and no surprise that its mostly "lads". Absolutely no sense of risk to self, and a poorly-formed view of social responsibility ........ I know, I was one once! 

Same with me in my teens, and my school year cohort had four deaths from the leukemia very prevalent in new towns that I knew of, by the time I was seventeen. Hey, some die, let's get on with living while we are upright and able!

 

And the data being disseminated indicates that they are right from a wholly individual viewpoint. Fatality among the ypung and fit is relatively low , The control of risk for others, from an asymptomatic carrier, not really on their radar.

 

I have been corresponding regularly with my MP on the structuring of coming out of lockdown, feeling that it will need to be segmented by risk group. The young who need to get on with completing their education, establishing a career or developing a business should in my opinion get priority. Ancients like myself who have enjoyed good lives during our 'time in the sun' should be prepared to accept increased risk (to the level tolerable for the NHS) in the interests of the young enjoying the opportunity to get on with life. Not easy to manage, and will be controversial for some.

[Nearholmer]

Very public-spirited thoughts, and if everyone lived in “age-banded cells”, I can see that working, but where it gets complex is where generations interact, and where people who need to be ‘shielded’ for other than age-related reasons need to interact with the rest of humanity, in particular their own families.

 

The danger is that a lot of vulnerable people will catch it, and again avalanche the health service ........ unless all vulnerable individuals sign on the dotted line to make the ultimate sacrifice for the younger/fitter, which isn’t something that could or should be asked of people.

It’s a mighty old problem to resolve, and it is beyond question that any degree of unlocking will incur risk ........ let’s wait till they decide that masks are a good idea, which they will, then see what flows from that.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Nearholmer

[vaughan45]

34 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

let’s wait till they decide that masks are a good idea, which they will, then see what flows from that.

Regardless of what the government recommend, as someone in an extremely high risk group, I will be wearing both a homemade 3 layer mask and a visor protector when I venture out after the 12 weeks 'shielding'.

 

I am expecting the shielding period to be extended, as a retired NHS non-clinical person, the word on street is that September is being discussed, which appears to tie in with my ASDA 'extremely vulnerable' priority status  which their system shows expires at the end of September 2020. The thinking being loosen the lockdown for those less at risk and see if the second spike occurs, before releasing those at high risk and elderly back into the community at large.

Edited May 1, 2020 by vaughan45

[GeoffAlan]

On 02/04/2020 at 09:42, MR Chuffer said:

A maximum of 72 hours, my doctor daughter informs me....

Yes, as we're both vulnerable we quarantine all incoming 'stuff' for 3 days. Then I open and dispose of the outer packaging. Then I wash my hands. the only exception is milk where I wash the plastic bottle as it arrives, then thoroughly dry it before it goes into the fridge.

 

Neither of us can afford to catch this bug so we are trying to be OTT!

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, vaughan45 said:

I am expecting the shielding period to be extended, as

I think you’re right, and I don’t think it will be only the ‘shielded’, but also the vulnerable-by-age who will be asked to stay cooped-up.

 

But, I don’t think September will be the end of it, because I don’t think schools will go back fully until then (if infection hasn’t runaway again), and that will need to bed-in first.

 

My good lady is theoretically ‘shielded’ (the practicalities get challenging when you have children) and is busy on the mask task right now.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Nearholmer

[JSpencer]

I think the contents on the inside of the parcel - if there was any virus - will be long dead by the time it is delivered. Especially on soft cardboard surfaces.

 

Its the outside box recently handled by god knows how many people that could carry it. I tip the contents out, through the outer packaging away then thoroughly wash my hands and anything I used to open the package with.

To be honest China data showed transmission by touch made up about 1% of infected cases (this with people washing hands etc).

 

Air transmission from people just talking and sharing the indoor space with you is the bigger transmission. Where I am, masks are required now on public transport (or top of social distancing, WFH etc... bring down transmission rate to 1.5%). But strangely shops don't. I had a person the queue behind me in a shop last week coughing behind me (into his arm and about 6ft away), boy I was glad I was wearing FFP2 mask and was happy to get out of there. He had no mask nor other people in the same queue!

 

One thing that bugged me is the higher numbers of deaths which cannot be instantly attributed to Covid-19 nor other explanations. Leading me to think this Virus must be killing people in other ways. Then I read this:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/happy-hypoxia-unusual-coronavirus-effect-baffles-doctors/ar-BB13z4zo?ocid=spartanntp

 

Some people form a "Happy Hypoxia" (rather than agony and suffering) and may not be seeking help at all. Their O2 levels probably get so low that they die from heart attack or other organ failure. If someone you know ends up in delirious state it could be Covid-19 (and they should certainly be in hospital).

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

34 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

...One thing that bugged me is the higher numbers of deaths which cannot be instantly attributed to Covid-19 nor other explanations. Leading me to think this Virus must be killing people in other ways...

On this subject, I am very happy to hear the consistent emphasis in the daily briefings that to provide more insight into this question will require the evaluation of the excess deaths in 2020 (and beyond) compared to past mortality data. However this will be very much retrospective data. There's no short cut to obtaining the full picture...

 

For sure, this virus will be killing and injuring, both directly and indirectly. One of the concerns that has been communicated is a reduction in the expected number of cases of acute conditions such as heart failure and stroke arriving in A&E departments; probably because there is an aversion to calling for help, possibly due to perceived risk of going to hospital. Further aspects such as depression and agoraphobia due to isolation, can be expected in addition to health impacts from physical conditions. The full effect will continue to emerge for years to come.

[Nick C]

Something I don't understand is why they're mothballing the new nightingale hospital - why not send all the c19 patients there, freeing up the other hospitals to deal with normal patients - that'd help with the above problem...