Hygiene at supermarkets during Coronavirus epidemic

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It really would be educational to understand the HK- UK difference, whether it be about masks or some other factors, because it is quite remarkable that the HK outbreak has been so small.

 

Trying to pick out the details, it may be that HK, despite apparently close links to China, actually cut-off entry of people from Wuhan earlier in the process and more decisively than did the UK.

Cultural differences no doubt, our 'freedom' to do what we please enshrined in the law of " I'll do what I bl@@dy want to", and perhaps many already utilising masks because of pollution meant that those who had it were less likely to pass it on.  Travelling in February to a model railway show I noted how the only people wearing masks were Chinese people, at that time it was still officially a Chinese mainland virus, we hadn't picked up the true nature of it's spread.  Locally I've also noted how most of our Chinese takeaways have shut for business - again no doubt because they have taken health over profit and distanced themselves from others.

[Pete the Elaner]

8 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It really would be educational to understand the HK- UK difference, whether it be about masks or some other factors, because it is quite remarkable that the HK outbreak has been so small.

 

Trying to pick out the details, it may be that HK, despite apparently close links to China, actually cut-off entry of people from Wuhan earlier in the process and more decisively than did the UK.

 

I agree, it would be useful to know.

It could be any number of reasons from closing down transport links very quickly to mis-information.

 

It is also important to remember that governments only pass on information to the public which they feel we need to know.

There is not a lot I read in the media which I feel is reported free of bias.

[Nearholmer]

If the HK figures have been ‘cooked’, they’ve gone to a lot of trouble over it, because they publish a lot of detail, much more and you’d get individual names and addresses https://www.chp.gov.hk/files/pdf/local_situation_covid19_en.pdf

 

There could, of course, be huge under-identification, even of fatal cases, but it would need someone local to comment on whether that seems likely or not.

[Fenman]

42 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

If the HK figures have been ‘cooked’, they’ve gone to a lot of trouble over it, because they publish a lot of detail, much more and you’d get individual names and addresses https://www.chp.gov.hk/files/pdf/local_situation_covid19_en.pdf

 

There could, of course, be huge under-identification, even of fatal cases, but it would need someone local to comment on whether that seems likely or not.

 

There's going to be lots of opportunities for comparisons. I suspect enormous cultural diferences will always make comparisons between western Europe and east Asia tricky.

 

But I will be fascinated to see how the strikingly lower infection and death rates in the Republic of Ireland have been achieved. The cultural similarities to the UK are very strong. Yet, somehow, they seem to be doing very much better than us.

 

Paul

[Reorte]

1 minute ago, Fenman said:

But I will be fascinated to see how the strikingly lower infection and death rates in the Republic of Ireland have been achieved. The cultural similarities to the UK are very strong. Yet, somehow, they seem to be doing very much better than us.

 

There's a significant population density difference but I don't think that tells the whole picture since there's still quite a large proportion of the population in fairly close proximity, there are just a greater number of emptier areas.

[Nearholmer]

One would wonder if population density might be a factor, Ireland having a population density about half that of England I think, but that hardly explains HK, which has a population density something like fifteen times that of England!

 

My ‘gut’ tells me that ‘seed cases’ from Hubaei are the key ...... how many, and how well trapped in the very early stages.

[Fenman]

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

There's a significant population density difference but I don't think that tells the whole picture since there's still quite a large proportion of the population in fairly close proximity, there are just a greater number of emptier areas.

 

Yes, I don't think that's relevant; compare Greater Dublin to Greater London; most of the rest of the RoI population lives in a thin strip along the east coast.

 

But you've just proved the point: even as culturally close a country as the RoI, with whom we even share a land border, is "different".

 

Paul

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, Fenman said:

But you've just proved the point: even as culturally close a country as the RoI, with whom we even share a land border, is "different".

 

Indeed, making meaningful comparisons is very difficult indeed. Some places are almost certainly handling the situation better than others but it'll be the subject of investigations for years to come just to what degree the differences were down to local factors (and luck) that couldn't be reasonably dealt with and what's down to the handling of the situation.

[Nearholmer]

And, even those countries that are gradually easing lock-down can't really be in the end-game yet.

 

There are still a heck of a lot of people in those countries, and in the rest of the world, who remain potential hosts/victims for the blasted thing, who somehow need to be protected from it for upwards of, say, two years.

 

The long-game could change our perceptions of who has done relatively well, and who has done relatively badly.

 

 

[Reorte]

Does strike me as a bit early for anyone in Europe to be easing lockdowns, unless they've got a pretty good idea of exactly where infections are occurring. Could be that they've decided some strict measures were both too strict and made too little difference rather than a more general ease though. At some point restrictions will have to ease to avoid total collapse though, but bad as the impact is again, not there yet.

[ColinK]

Having been for my weekly shop, I do like the way the supermarkets near me are operating.  They are limiting the number of people allowed in, so you queue outside, when someone come out you are given a trolley which has just been sanitised.  Inside its so pleasant, no people blocking the isles while they gossip, nobody preventing you getting to the shelves while they chat on their mobile phone, no kids running riot, everyone quickly gets what they need, pays and leaves. Bliss. Hope they stay like this when the virus goes.

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It really would be educational to understand the HK- UK difference, whether it be about masks or some other factors, because it is quite remarkable that the HK outbreak has been so small.

 

Trying to pick out the details, it may be that HK, despite apparently close links to China, actually cut-off entry of people from Wuhan earlier in the process and more decisively than did the UK.

Indeed it would.

I know people in HK. When the riots were taking place the young people would get involved and the better off older people would go across the border for the weekend. This all stopped with Covid. All movement stopped. People in various countries in Asia have worn masks for at least 25 years. It was that long ago I first visited Japan and mask wearing was common on the trains way back then. There is the sense of community and also the general high standard of hygiene. The famous Japanese toilets for example. When I was in Thailand not that long ago I was given a pack of face masks as I had a slight cold. I would think that a more important factor than wearing a mask is the willingness of people in HK and Singapore to do exactly as they are told.

Bernard 

[Reorte]

32 minutes ago, ColinK said:

Having been for my weekly shop, I do like the way the supermarkets near me are operating.  They are limiting the number of people allowed in, so you queue outside, when someone come out you are given a trolley which has just been sanitised.  Inside its so pleasant, no people blocking the isles while they gossip, nobody preventing you getting to the shelves while they chat on their mobile phone, no kids running riot, everyone quickly gets what they need, pays and leaves. Bliss. Hope they stay like this when the virus goes.

Wish I could say the same about not blocking the aisles on the phone. That aside though fair play to my local Tesco for looking like they're keeping their spirits up, everyone, staff and (most) customers all trying to be helpful for each other.

[Ozexpatriate]

10 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

Looking at this aerodynamic analysis of air flow around a moving car,

Moving cars are less of a problem. Two stationary cars, waiting for a traffic signal in adjacent traffic lanes with their windows open do not conform to a 2m distancing rule.

 

I'm not sure how this pertains to supermarket hygiene. This thread seems to have assumed the discussion of the closed thread.

[Andy Hayter]

7 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

And from these "facts", you expect us to draw a conclusion? Are you aware that there are other variables?

 

Current UK advice, based on science, is that face masks are unnecessary for most of the population. There is an argument that people who are infected should wear one to avoid infecting others, but even this isn't the end of it. You have to wear one correctly and handling a contaminated mask can be worse than not wearing one.

 

So, my interpretation is that I was correct to put you on moderation.

 

 

 

At the risk of getting myself put on the naughty step Phil, think about what you have just written.

 

Someone who is knowingly infected should be isolated - end of.  No mask needed because they are not going to see anyone for a period of time - depending on country and advice for between 7 to 21 days.

 

The problem is those who are not knowingly infected.  These are the people who are spreading the virus.

 

Countries across Europe are telling their populations that masks do not protect them - and indeed there efficacy is questionable in protecting you.  Why are they saying this?  Because they cannot source enough masks for their medical staff and don't want the populace doing a toilet roll stock out on the world supply of masks.   That is why you are rightly being told it won't protect you - BUT it will protect others in the event that you turn out to be unknowingly infected.  It is not 100% effective, but it helps a lot - just like car air bags do not 100% guarantee that any accident will allow you survival.

 

There is a shortage of masks, so don't make the situation worse by pressing the buy button on your favorite auction site.  Make your own (For goodness sake making things is something we should be good at).  There are plenty of internet tuitions for making your own from a variety of readily available materials from a paper towel though to a cut up tee shirt.  They are not sophisticated, they are not 100% effective (neither are cheap bought in masks), but if they reduce by 95% the chances of the spittle from your speech, your cough or your sneeze getting to someone else, they are as good as if not better than 2m separation (only 1m here in France because we are so much better - I wish).  Even a bandana across the mouth worn like a 1950s baddie for a B cowboy movie will help.

 

Still maintain that 2/1m separation and you then start to cut down the transmission of the virus.

 

As for the contamination from the mask:  If you have the virus, you have it and your mask will be contaminated.  If you don't have the virus and someone that does has put the virus on your mask (rather than straight into your lungs) when you take the mask off, wash your hands.  But you were going to do that anyway, weren't you.

 

Right, I am now off to the naught step.   I will however be taking a rudimentary mask with me.

[caradoc]

Which does of course beg the question, where do you get the masks from, if not by going shopping ?!! That is, if the shop(s) have any in stock anyway. And if instead you try mail order, is there sufficient supply for everybody, is it even possible to manufacture and distribute enough masks quickly enough ? Given that (something that seems to be forgotten whenever complaints are made about any aspect of the response to the pandemic), the people that organise, make and transport PPE are just as susceptible to Covid-19 as the rest of us, and may therefore be working below normal capacity at a time when demand is anything but normal !

 

On the BBC News this morning a care worker was explaining how a delivery of 300 face masks was in her words totally inadequate; So, if instructed to, I will wear a face mask (if I can even get any), but in the meantime I am leaving home on an absolute minimum of occasions, when I do maintaining social distancing at all times, and what supply of PPE is available should be directed to those putting themselves at risk, not to me.

 

[Andy Hayter]

Totally agree Caradoc, but if you use a search engine for "home made mask" you will find hundreds of ways to make something from household materials

[JSpencer]

Where I am, I am glad security now insist on everyone using hydrogel to wash their hands when entering and leaving the shop. 

 

 

 

[JSpencer]

On 15/04/2020 at 09:44, Nick Holliday said:

 

 

Looking at this aerodynamic analysis of air flow around a moving car, I would hardly describe the effect as negligible.

As you can see there are flows rising up along the side of the car which have the potential to pull the air from within the car, including any contamination, and send it upwards some distance, and impart additional horizontal velocity to it. Surely this will have the effect of potentially spreading any contamination far further than 2m, making it possible that someone perhaps crossing the road a few seconds after the car has passed could be at risk. Perhaps a qualified aerodynamicist can adjudicate.

 

 

 

Air turbulence quickly reduces the time water droplets rest in the air. It tends to catapult them. Look at how much dirt you get on the boot compared to bonnet after driving in rain.

There is pretty well no risk of someone driving in a car with the virus transmitting it to someone standing outside (or vice versa).

Edited April 16, 2020 by JSpencer

[JSpencer]

7 hours ago, caradoc said:

Which does of course beg the question, where do you get the masks from, if not by going shopping ?!! That is, if the shop(s) have any in stock anyway. And if instead you try mail order, is there sufficient supply for everybody, is it even possible to manufacture and distribute enough masks quickly enough ? Given that (something that seems to be forgotten whenever complaints are made about any aspect of the response to the pandemic), the people that organise, make and transport PPE are just as susceptible to Covid-19 as the rest of us, and may therefore be working below normal capacity at a time when demand is anything but normal !

 

On the BBC News this morning a care worker was explaining how a delivery of 300 face masks was in her words totally inadequate; So, if instructed to, I will wear a face mask (if I can even get any), but in the meantime I am leaving home on an absolute minimum of occasions, when I do maintaining social distancing at all times, and what supply of PPE is available should be directed to those putting themselves at risk, not to me.

 

 

One of the things in France - if we keep the 11th May deconfinement - is that masks will be obligatory when in public places. An issue is that capacity exists to have masks for only half the population at best! People who are most vulnerable (over 70 and those with underlying health issues) and those with Covid-19 will remain in confinement.

In a nutshell, my kids might be obliged to restart school but they must never see their grand parents.

 

Masks are on top of all the other measures in place. So I expect to see videos showing how to wear them and how to change them soon. FWIW thanks to my seasonal allergies, I already have a few FFP2 masks which I always wear for those brief moments in getting the shopping.

 

The bit that bugs me is that a lot of places where the virus has hit, are showing say a 60% increase in deaths, but 1/5th of those are COVID-19 in hospitals, the rest is too high to be COVID-19 outside hospitals and seems hard to explain. Equally, I cannot believe all these care homes would let so many people with breathing difficulties all of sudden simply just die. I'm sure most would have people transferred them to hospitals. All of which suggests to me that maybe respiratory problems, whilst the main cause of death from this disease, might not be the only way this disease kills people.

Another thing, I have one friend living 100km from me with Covid-19 (confirmed by test), but instead of being stuck on a ventilator, is stuck on the toilet. She has a big fever and big headaches but never has coughs nor has any problem breathing. She was lucky to be tested as normally they don't unless you have that dry cough.

 

We don't have enough masks but worse, we are seriously short on test kits. And until we have them, we may not be fully aware what this virus is capable of. 

 

Two examples of higher than normal numbers of death:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52278825

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/10/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html

 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I think that the NY Registrar (may not be the correct title, but that's what he'd be called in the UK) summed it up neatly and honestly by saying that these "excess death" spikes can only be a function of the direct or indirect affects of Covid.

 

There has been talk of indirect affects, people delaying or avoiding medical treatment etc., and surely there must be some indirect affect, but to get these numbers of excess deaths strongly suggests to me that Covid is directly causing more deaths than is at first apparent, perhaps (OK, wild, uninformed guess) by doing things like "pumping" people's heart rate and precipitating heart attacks as their system mounts a defence, even where it hasn't progressed to become the severe version of the illness.

 

My reading is that once you get past about 50, certainly past 60, you need to be "fighting fit" to fight it off easily, and how many of us can honestly say that we are "fighting fit"? The PM clearly got duffed-up pretty badly by it, and he appears to be a fairly fit chap.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Baby Deltic]

[vaughan45]

4 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Equally, I cannot believe all these care homes would let so many people with breathing difficulties all of sudden simply just die. I'm sure most would have people transferred them to hospitals. All of which suggests to me that maybe respiratory problems, whilst the main cause of death from this disease, might not be the only way this disease kills people.

 

From articles in the press and on the BBC website it appears that having Heart Conditions and/or Dementia are as bigger factor as respiratory conditions in killing patients 60+ who have Covid-19. It should also be remembered that may residents in care homes will have 'do not resuscitate' forms completed either by them or their next of kin as part of their 'Advanced Care' packages. So in many cases medical help may not be sought.

[LNWR18901910]

It's been weeks since I last went into a supermarket or a shop even with a mask on, but then again, it's better to be safe than sorry. Usually, I help with the shopping, but because of this pandemic lockdown, I hardly go to the shops as often as I used to.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, LNWR18901910 said:

It's been weeks since I last went into a supermarket or a shop even with a mask on, but then again, it's better to be safe than sorry. Usually, I help with the shopping, but because of this pandemic lockdown, I hardly go to the shops as often as I used to.

My wife made her first foray to the supermarket since before lockdown began, I'm the main shopper for the household.

 

She was a bit shocked at all the masks, the people distancing themselves and the general change in the supermarkets.  I doubt I will get her anywhere near one for a bit now, she likes to keep herself sheltered from all this to manage her anxiety.